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> I think quoting Dan's email repeatedly is entirely unhelpful, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't to that. We've actually addressed every single point in Dan's email, talked to Dan repeatedly, and gone beyond what he originally wrote. Sure it has a catchy title, but if you actually read it (and the replies it generated back then), and then compare to what PNaCl does (including discussions on the LLVM mailing list) you'll see that I'm not making things up here. Our IR subset was designed to be portable and stable.

My point wasn't to imply that PNaCl has done a bad job moving mountains to make LLVM into something stable and portable—in fact, the project has done an incredible job with it. I'm just saying that LLVM is not really any more of a natural fit than JS is. JS starts with compatibility and defined semantics and needs to add a low-level type system to become a portable native runtime. LLVM starts with a low-level type system and needs to add compatibility and a defined semantics to become a portable native runtime. In neither case was the system designed for it, as Dan's email shows.

> Undefined behavior: it's mostly gone by the time the pexe is created, and our intent is to remove all that's left (e.g. shift by larger than bit width is trivial to fix). I think what's left is mostly non-issues that can't be easily fixed without breakage, so honestly I don't think undefined behavior is any kind of a deal breaker at this point.

I just wish PNaCl hadn't shipped with any known undefined behavior. (I don't believe NaN canonicalization problems were known at the time asm.js shipped.)

Does PNaCl still have undefined behavior if you access outside a valid allocated region, as that document states ("accessing undefined/freed memory")? It is defined in asm.js, as the application ships its own malloc and there is no type system to tell the runtime what kind of pointer something is. Supposedly Microsoft got into trouble with their libc's malloc because they couldn't change it without breaking apps that relied on accessing freed memory in certain ways. I can see that being true on the Web as well…




Oh I see your point on being a proper fit. It's not much of an argument then, since you're just saying that making it work when it wasn't quite designed for that use is hard, but we did make it work. So I agree :-)

I also wish there weren't any UD, but we did try to do a good list and I think we chose which to fix and which to punt on purpose.

I see memory allocation (both for code and data) as well-defined randomness: saying that the allocated base addresses are random allows many interesting types of sandboxing to be used which couldn't be used otherwise (more on that in the future). I think this will lead to interesting perf gain in some cases, and interesting security gains in others. More pragmatically it currently allows ASLR while still providing memory access without indirection (i.e. reg-reg addressing) on x86-32 and ARM.




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