I've often thought, in League of Legends, that I'd pay $100 for access to a special queue which matched me up with other people who had paid $100 to access it. If you earn an account ban, you can probably find a new credit card, level up again, and pay $100, but it should cut down on casual sociopathy. (Yes, that's classist as heck, but after a bad day of LoL I'm pretty OK with that as long as it means that I can play a relaxing game with people who are capable of meeting the absolute minimal norms of civilized society.)
Microsoft tried an approach with Xbox Live on the 360 where gamers could segregate themselves into different communities. Recreation, Family, Pro, Underground. The hope was that the toxic players would stick to Pro and Underground, but there just essentially zero policing for the scale Xbox Live came to be, so trolls would enter the other areas too.
Any community enforcement is doomed to fail, because too much of the community really are a bunch of idiots and jerks. Friends lists and isolation are the only good counterpoints, and Xbox Live is a much friendlier, but much quieter place, since Party Chat came about (which lets you talk to your friends only). I don't ever use my headset without Party Chat now, and most others don't seem to either. Xbox Live was much cooler back in the Halo 2 days, you'd meet new people and have fun, before it hit it's own Eternal September.
I'm not suggesting that commitment to the game (and therefore willingness to pay extra) is inversely proportional to the quality of behavior, but I've seen my share of anecdotal evidence. (Probably the situation is better in diamond and above, but boy I suck to ever reach it.)
Do you even need a fee? I used to play Counter-Strike a lot and there was always a wide variety of servers. From "free for all" (FFA) and anything goes to private ones that required registration and had staff strictly policing skill, teamplay, language, microphone noises...
Then there were "gathers." Like pick-up games in soccer or basketball but organized via IRC. People who were annoying just wouldn't get picked.
All of that was free for the participants. Servers, channels, websites were all provided by the players themselves.
I don't really play computer games any more but is this not an option for modern games and systems? Another regression like Usenet?
We didn't play a single game where someone didn't whine about how I sucked, or tell me I was a horrible person, and so on.
It's not a nice environment, and it probably puts a lot of people off from trying it more than a few games.
I'd be right behind you in that queue, if I was a bigger fan of the game to begin with, but due to the circumstances I never really gave it much of a shot.
Yes we trash talk a lot in games, and yeah we don't see it as a big deal for the most part, because there's a part of creativity in trash talking in some ways so we can ignore all but the more original (and often laughable) insults.
But when someone is revealed as a woman, some people really go nuts. It activates some really ugly beta part in their brain, they can't help it, they need to harass, tediously, methodically reduce the other player to her gender, whatever she is doing or however she performs, whether she's in his team or not is irrelevant. That wouldn't be an issue in itself, there are crazy and stupid people everywhere. The problem is, the proportion of obnoxious and sexually insecure male gamers is through the roof, maybe something as high as 5% of the gamers are like that, and they are very vocal, and they don't quit.
Such people don't rage quit on girls like they would on guys, when they get beaten or when they're ignored, for some reason they need to keep harrassing forever, it's a matter of virile pride you know. It's either that or they fall in love, which sometimes is even worse.
Girls have to deal with them every single day.
People really need to wake up on these issues. They add up and pile on each other. They span a very large spectrum of the industry, from day to day community interactions to elements of storytelling and character design.
If you want to wake up to these issues in pictures and with a good laugh, check out these two blogs:
http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/ (a more constructive take on the issue of character design, specifically female armor)
http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/ (a hilarious take on the issue of objectification of women, this time in comics)
No, we don't. You do. Please do not attempt to normalize the ridiculous toxic vitriol that Xbox Live and League of Legends et al. extends to the silent community at large. Trash talking is unnecessary and unhelpful. Many people actually don't enjoy that kind of conflict. There are reasons why LoL now doesn't have All chat enabled and why most people never enter public chat on Xbox Live anymore.
Trash talking is not a "gamer" trait. It's a subsection, and probably even a vocal minority, of those who play games. Just because it's not a girl on the receiving end doesn't make it any less toxic.
Bullshit. They have a brain, it is capable of higher brain functions. They can learn manners and behave themselves.
All this is, this 'they can't help it' is a reason for justification. "I'm a mindless animal, I can't help it." It is nothing but bullshit.
Essentially, both sides really need to grow up.
Do you really think that those behaviors are equivalent ? Because they're not. Some female players may be behaving badly, but in terms of scale and gravity it doesn't match the abuse of male players towards female players.
Perhaps you didn't meant to, but your comment sounded like white people always bringing back anecdotal cases of anti-white racism to try to make up for the most common cases of racism. Or the male-rape vs female-rape issue.
It doesn't matter what I think; if someone get's offended then someone gets offended. They're the judge of how much something offended them.
Anyway, I don't really want to get into an argument about -isms.
I know lots of women who played computer games all through the 80s and 90s.
If I made this up, you wouldn't believe me.
Every "gender issues" thread on HN seems to attract new accounts that are here only for gender issues.
Or we have a great many people placing an enormous value on their HN karma score.
2) There seems something deeply ironic that the big strong man was signing on to unlock things for the poor wife here...
Due to white knight emotional impulses, we treat attacks on females in games as special. But I don't see a logical reason to do this.
Wouldn't it be sexist for gamers to tone down the trash talk simply because a woman is playing?
The normal female experience involves that kind of talk in reaction to what you are. Being female. Doesn't matter what you do, or what you say; you get a constant barrage of abuse, hatred, and threat of rape. For being female and daring to play a game.
The first thing I hear when I log into games is not "Oh great... a boy player? Fuck. Are you serious? Let's kick her and hope we get someone else."
> Wouldn't it be sexist for gamers to tone down the trash talk simply because a woman is playing?
Did you seriously just ask if it would be sexist to not be sexist?
If the typical male-to-male interaction within a given community involves making sexist remarks now and then, then a male who doesn't make sexist remarks while in the presence of females would be treating them differently due to their gender. That in itself could be seen as a form of "sexism". After all, if everyone were to be treated equally in that context, then sexist remarks would be made regardless of whether the other people present were male or female.
Political correctness is often contradictory or self-defeating in this sort of a way. Those who are against "intolerance" end up inherently becoming intolerant themselves, because they do not tolerate intolerance, for example. Or those who single out, target and speak out against bullies end up engaging in a form of bullying behavior themselves.
Though if the insults are gender neutral "lol noob scrub" then I guess it might be unfair to expect preferential treatment because of gender.
I've heard various things of this nature, for various non-gendered reasons. Give a team any reason to think you are either a) a bot or b) not good and they will boot you.
Did you seriously just ask if it would be sexist to not be sexist?
Sexism is treating people differently based on their gender. So yes, I assert it would be sexist to say to men "jail rape u gayayay nigz" but to tell women "tally ho madam, you have soundly defeated me."
Only if you choose to make it so.
In my last job (not in the US), I was the minority. People made jokes about Americans (e.g. "no American jokes - they sue") along with many other groups. I chose not to make it a big deal (being the oppressed minority is boring to me) so it wasn't.
> Only if you choose to make it so.
The perfect demonstration of why HN is a hateful place to discuss sexism, racism, etc.
"See, women, it's your fault. Just get over it already."
"Blacks are on average more criminal than whites. Yes, this is a stereotype. But a stereotype based on experience instead of prejudice. Don't like it? Get a job, negro."
"Fags are more AIDS-ridden than straight people. Yes, this is a stereotype. But a stereotype based on experience instead of prejudice. Don't like it? Don't have butt-sex, faggot."
Shall I go on?
It's not ironic at all. Oftentimes people who have been oppressed become in turn oppressors.
In my times playing Counter-Strike (and Source), you'd frequently be playing on the same server, and so a community would build; everyone was generally very cool to both girl and guy. But there are bad/trolly servers of course. WoW probably fits somewhere in this model too.
I guess I'll give a shout-out to the AHP custom map server (on cs source), as that is probably one of the best examples of good.
"Og there’s plenty you can do, problem is, people are convinced that nothing will be done, so they never bother with reporting the offenders."
Also, nonsense what? You never encountered sexism when playing online? Just consider how it's actually considered perfectly fine by many to call a decisive win "rape" :/
Because when it comes from people spraying porn on any surface they come in contact with, or who address females (whom they don't happen to suck up to) as "bitch" on principle, or any male they don't like as "fag", it's rather obvious how this all connects, and that it's basically insecure dumb male chauvinism letting the hair down. At this point it doesn't even matter if some females parrot the language as well, the source is still obvious.
Are you also offended by the words "dominated", "murdered", "owned"?
Not offended, but I pity the fools, yes. These concepts have one thing in common to me; I understand how they would seem desirable to people who can't make women laugh nor orgasm. Of course, just because every Volvo is a car, doesn't mean every car is a Volvo. But still.
Your second answer goes off in a tangent so I won't bother with that.
Those people also react aggressively without any humour to women who show confidence? Bullshit. And just because some people do sexist stuff for the purpose of trolling, doesn't mean it's not based on actual sexism, and that the actual sexism doesn't occur at the same time. I guess it just gives some people an opportunity to put their blinders on.
Your second answer goes off in a tangent so I won't bother with that.
Heh? Kindly scroll up: you asked, I answered. And if you think those terms are not based on physical dominance and how that attracts some men and rarely women, then I think you're even more unaware of the real world than of gaming.
I'm not understanding this correctly.
The term "rape" in gaming isn't a sexist term. It is often used when a team of 5 guys beats 5 other guys. (Common in LoL) Nothing to do with gender, all about dominance, power, strength and humility. Other variations: "We owned you", "We killed you", "We murdered you on the field", etc)
And yes, you answered my question. (You're not offended by the other words) but then you went on to talk about "people who can't make women laugh nor orgasm" which really has no place in the conversation.
Surely there where a few people who thought I was female and surely they were behaving differently. But I think that's true for a lot of people playing those games regardless of what gender they think they're playing against. It can be nonsense and obscenities through and through.
Consider how it is considered perfectly fine to joke about man-on-man rape. "Don't bend over in the shower", implying that some inmate is going to be some other burly inmates bitch/wife, etc. Man-on-woman rape is not something you joke about unless you want to be ostracised.
There are evidently issues for women in gaming, but this one is not a symptom of that.
Forgive the brief reply, but I'm entering this on a smartphone.
This is an important matter, and you clearly haven't got it yet. Think about it for a while. If, after some reflection, you still don't see why your point doesn't stand, post a reply, and I'll explain when I'm sitting at a keyboard.
Sucks, but in almost every game there is no requirement to identify yourself much.
If Competitor A can use insults to get Competitor B flustered to the point that it affects Competitor B's ability to play the game, then Competitor A has given himself or herself an advantage.
If Competitor A's insults get Competitor B to quit playing altogether, then it's even more of an advantage for Competitor A.
Once you realize this, the insults become irrelevant. Just ignore them. It's not difficult, and they really have no impact unless you let them bother you.
You should avoid places where "moral majority" tends to gather.
I've played quite a bit of Diablo III hardcore last year on Europe, and people were mostly friendly. Altough you should not take everything being said in game chat at its face value - it's game after all.
It may be that I've played with more women than I know, but those with girly names tend to be awful. I'd probably give the boot too if I was playing Gold on ME3.