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Really? You don't see any difference between the denial posted by Google's CEO vs. the way that (say) Verizon responded? Here's Verizon's response: http://www.businessinsider.com/verizons-memo-to-workers-abou...



A better carefully worded response is still a carefully worded response. Google is in a difficult place because we all expected this to be happening, there are now documents suggesting that it has been happening, and no one takes at face value anything that sounds like a lawyer wrote it.

EDIT: I mean: (a) No one cares if they have heard about a program called "PRISM" when the point of that program is to aggregate data from other programs. (b) Anyone who is actually innocent in this needs to stop mentioning "direct access to servers": no one expects this program to be directly accessing servers. (c) We also don't care whether actions were "in accordance with the law", as the constitutionality of the surrounding laws is part of the debate.

I will say that "Any suggestion that Google is disclosing information about our users’ Internet activity on such a scale is completely false." is a good statement to make. It sounds broad in a good way and doesn't appear to have many weasel words, other than specifying "Internet activity" and not email or general activity. Are Google searches even "Internet activity", or is he referring to Google Analytics / Google +1 / 8.8.8.8 DNS?


"direct access to servers" looks suspicios to me as well. However, maybe several dozen lawyers had no clue how to react today, and they just copied one another's text?


More likely: the first paragraph from the Guardian and the Washington Post both emphasized "direct" access. See the picture here: http://cl.ly/image/2S3i1g2W2R2k

If you're refuting claims of behavior X, it's natural to say "We don't do behavior X."


Especially when you're doing X' instead, and don't want to draw attention to it.


The problem is that Obama himself has acknowledged the program both exists and is very active, the only limitation being 'Internet monitoring is only for those outside United States'- no comfort for Google users like myself outside the US[1].

I don't mind targeted surveillance against genuine suspected terrorists. What frightens me is broader intelligence collection especially commercial intelligence. Over time programs broaden and if we're not really, really careful we'll find gmail being read by intelligence analysts who can brief our US competitors.

If non-Americans can't trust Google with their information that is an existential risk to its future. I think the Google leadership needs to do a lot more than this one short post!

[1] From Obama's comments: Now, with respect to the Internet and emails, this does not apply to U.S. citizens, and it does not apply to people living in the United States. And again, in this instance, not only is Congress fully apprised of it, but what is also true is that the FISA Court has to authorize it.

So in summary, what you’ve got is two programs that were originally authorized by Congress, have been repeatedly authorized by Congress.

That seems pretty clear - there is a congress-approved spying on non-US citizens Internet and email.

EDIT: added Obama quote


"I don't mind targeted surveillance against genuine suspected terrorists."

This kind of language bothers me - "suspected terrorist" requires no proof at all, while sounding authoritative (65% of Americans support the remote execution by drone of 'suspected terrorists').

I know roughly what you meant, of course, but where that line is drawn is a discussion that needs to be had. I'd say that with the level of surveillance that goes on, we are all suspected terrorists now.


I find it fascinating that Matt Cutts didn't bother to address any of this in his defense of Google. Obama and James Clapper have both admitted to what is obviously Prism, a large scale spying program targeting Internet users and their data.

It rather makes it clear that Google is participating in espionage programs for the NSA. Supposedly, maybe, it isn't directed at Americans (har har).


I don't think they are. I think ISP's allow government equipment on their networks to capture traffic as they see fit. If every ISP participates, then they have Google data, Facebook data, Yahoo data, and on and on.


Obama has acknowledged that federal law allows FedGov to obtain emails of non-citizens without a search warrant but through a court-overseen process. This is part of a 2008 law that we all know (if you've been paying attention) does this.

The president has not, however, confirmed that the news reports about "PRISM" are accurate. All he's done is summarized the law.


The last couple lines of his blog post seemed to convey, at least to me, that he was posting truth but perhaps not as much as he'd like.

"We post this information on our Transparency Report whenever possible... ...we understand that the U.S. and other governments need to take action to protect their citizens’ safety—including sometimes by using surveillance. But the level of secrecy around the current legal procedures undermines the freedoms we all cherish."


In the transparency report, Google can only report wide ranges of numbers, not actual numbers (i.e. 1000-4999). They have always said they wished they could provide the actual numbers of requests as well as copies of the requests themselves, so this is consistent with that.


It's well-known that there are restrictions on how much companies can legally disclose about some of these government requests.


Matt - Many of us believe that many of the people at Google are doing their best, however in this instance you're not doing the right thing.


Hey teawithcarl, I appreciate that. I'd be interested in hearing what you think the right thing is. I suspect that we're actually in agreement on most points. If there's something you think we should be doing differently (and I agree with you :), I'm more than happy to lobby for that within Google.

I do think Google is working hard to protect our users from unwarranted government requests. Just speaking for me personally, I really dislike provisions in the PATRIOT Act and FISA that compel secrecy. One thing I did like in Google's blog post was that we spoke out against the "level of secrecy around the current legal procedures." I was encouraged that Facebook later said something similar. In my opinion, a lot of the frustration about the current situation would be best applied to changing some laws in the United States.


Hey Matt.

While I honestly think _you_ believe Google is doing "the right thing" - there's a nagging suspicion that there's some NSL-style legal (or possibly extra-legal) compulsion being used at the very top levels. Even if I believe that Larry is 100% "on my side" against the government - I'm also under no doubt that Larry and Google are effectively powerless against the pressure the various US government agencies could apply if they so chose.

While explanations of the similarity between Larry's and Mark Z's posts based on direct rebuttal of the WaPo article are plausible, when combined with Apple's, AOL's, and Yahoo's suspiciously similar structure and wording - cynical-me can't help but wonder if all 5 CEO's are being compelled to disseminate the same government supplied message (and are possibly intentionally using almost word-for-word similar language as a plausibly deniable way of telling people that).

I'm not sure if there's much Google can say or do - given the depth and seriousness of the seeds of suspicion that've already been sown… (Having said that, I was pleased to read Yonatan's G+ post earlier today…)


When AT&T was asked politely by the NSA to open its networks under the warrantless surveillance program, the company refused to confirm or deny. They actually offered arguments like this one from an AT&T attorney:

http://news.cnet.com/Legal-loophole-emerges-in-NSA-spy-progr... Federal law may "authorize and in some cases require telecommunications companies to furnish information" to the executive branch, said Bradford Berenson, who was associate White House counsel when President Bush authorized the NSA surveillance program in late 2001 and is now a partner at the Sidley Austin law firm in Washington, D.C. Far from being complicit in an illegal spying scheme, Berenson said, "AT&T is essentially an innocent bystander."

And a sealed AT&T document I obtained tried to offer benign reasons why there would be a secret room at its downtown San Francisco switching center that would be designed to monitor Internet and telephone traffic: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1028_3-6077353.html

What Google and Facebook are doing today is precisely the opposite of what AT&T did.


Hi Matt - Thanks for answering. I genuinely appreciate your earnest communication. To answer your question, I sincerely believe Larry should do the right thing irregardless of the law, which means telling the American public the truth.

What Sergey (and Google) bravely did in China gave Google years of priceless respectability. This is one of those situations where civil disobedience is best. I realize you can't just "pull out of the United States", yet Google is looking like liars, and that just doesn't work.

For what it's worth, if Larry summoned the courage to speak his conscience completely, he will not go to jail. Far from it ... Google will be the true statesman, showing courage and leadership.

Indeed, I believe it may help Google the most, by catalyzing people's courage to do what's right. It's simply wrong to associate yourself with this.

It must come from Google first, Google is the strongest. Please consider the honor in doing this. Done genuinely, the public will rally behind Google, just like SOPA/PIPA. And don't forget, you have the world's largest bully pulpit.


Thanks for posting this. Here's something I wrote to someone recently: "I view talking about FISA (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillan... ) like handling radioactive waste or juggling chainsaws: it has to be done carefully." The reason is that FISA orders come with a gag order: see https://ssd.eff.org/foreign/fisa . So I understand why official company blog posts, even from Larry, have been carefully worded so far, even if that comes across as legalistic or weaselly-worded to some.

For what it's worth, I'd recommend reading this post: https://plus.sandbox.google.com/+YonatanZunger/posts/huwQsph... To me, Yonatan's post read as the sort of personal, even blunt statement that you're asking for.


Will do, thanks. Genuinely appreciate you.


It is literally impossible for you to know for certain if Larry Page is telling the truth or lying about PRISM. So, now what?

Are you asking Larry to violate the law on National Security Letters, by publicly posting their content?


Verizon said what they could: we have to comply with the orders when we get them. Nothing weaselly, maybe because we read the judge's order.

Why should we trust the safety of any information on our searches, emails, location data, chats etc stored by Google? Stop storing it


Thought twice about posting this, but am I the only one who feels really queasy about someone like Matt Cutts jumping directly into conversations about their own company on HN (especially when it could be connoted as being part of damage control)? He's hardly rank-and-file. I think it is plain old creepy, YMMV.


Yes, you might be the only person here to suggest Matt Cutts is ever unwelcome on any HN thread.


Heh, did you get out of the wrong side of bed today? I don't spend all day reading HN comments - sorry if my knowledge of responses to Matt Cutts' posts isn't as comprehensive and magnificent as your own. When I posted this, nobody else had said anything.


As a reporter, I think it's great. I wish we'd see senior folks from Microsoft, Yahoo, Facebook, AOL, and Apple doing the same right now.


ashleyblackmore, the initial news stories seemed to imply voluntary, wide-scale, direct access to Google's (and other's) data by the NSA. I genuinely thought that sounded wrong and against the bent of Google--both its execs and the rank and file employees. In the last few days, more recent stories have indicated that it's more like compelled, limited FISA requests, which all US companies are legally required to respond to. See Yahoo's recent post at http://yahoo.tumblr.com/post/52491403007/setting-the-record-... which also points in this direction.

Compelled and limited is a very different story than voluntary, wide-scale, and direct. Do I like FISA? No, I think it sucks. FISA orders come with a gag order, and laws that compel secrecy like that should be struck down, in my opinion. But in recent days, you've heard the CEO of Google say that they haven't gotten the sort of broad requests that (say) Verizon got, and that Google can and does push back on requests that they consider too broad.

I think the proper response to this issue should be frustration with bad laws, and calling your Senator or Representative in Congress to tell them that.


You demand answers from Google leaders. A Google leader gives you answers. This upsets you?




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