From the results, an entry point into a deep thread, posted by Maciej Stachowiak of Apple:
Further in this sub-thread, I comment on the loaded language used to open-wash NaCl and portray critics of it as haters:
Back to your comment: "It's based on open source tools" is true of Emscripten too.
The bit about "can be easily integrated into any browser" is false due to Pepper, the large new target runtime for *NaCl. Pepper is a non-standard and unspecified-except-by-C++-source plugin API abstracting over both the OS and WebKit -- now Blink -- internals.
To make such an airy assertion in an under-researched comment makes me suspect that you don't know that much about either PNaCl or "any browser". So why did you make that confident-sounding claim?
These days, large apps are written in JS, even by hand. GWT is not growing much from what I can tell, compared to its salad days. Closure is used the most within Google, and Dart has yet to replace Google's use of GWT + Closure.
Outside Google, hundreds of languages compile to JS (http://altjs.org/). CoffeeScript is doing well still. TypeScript is Microsoft's answer to Dart, and more intentionally aligned with the evolving JS standard.
"Does Mozilla has any plans to improve the situation here?"
Have you heard of ES4? Mozillans including yours truly poured years into it, based on the belief that programming-in-the-large required features going back to "JS2" in 1999 (designed by Waldemar Horwat), such as classes with fixed fields and bound methods, packages, etc.
Some of the particulars in ES4 didn't pan out (but could have been fixed with enough time and work). Others are very much like equivalent bits of Dart. One troublesome idea, namespaces (after Common Lisp symbol packages) could not be rescued.
But ES4 failed, in part due to objections from Microsofties (one now at Mozilla) and Googlers. In a Microsoft Channel 9 interview with Lars Bak and Anders Hejlsberg, Lars and Anders both professed to like the direction of ES4 and wondered why it failed. _Quel_ irony!
As always, Mozilla's plans to improve the situation involve building consensus on championed designs by one or two people, in the standards bodies, and prototyping as we specify. This is bearing fruit in ES6 and the rest of the "Harmony era" editions (ES7 is being strawman spec'ed too now; both versions have partial prototypes under way).
Founding Harmony email (on the demise of ES4):
A talk I gave last fall on ES6 and beyond.
For programming in the large, ES6 offers modules, classes, let, const, maps, sets, weak-maps, and many smaller affordances. I hope this helps. Even more is possible, if only the browser vendors and others invested in JS choose to keep working on evolving the language.
>The bit about "can be easily integrated into any browser" is false due to Pepper, the large new target runtime for *NaCl. Pepper is a non-standard and unspecified-except-by-C++-source plugin API abstracting over both the OS and WebKit -- now Blink -- internals.
It's a new technology, how is it supposed to be standardized? IMO, it's better to create some implementation,
>Have you heard of ES4? Mozillans including yours truly poured years into it, based on the belief that programming-in-the-large required features going back to "JS2" in 1999 (designed by Waldemar Horwat), such as classes with fixed fields and bound methods, packages, etc.
I closely monitored what have been happening to Harmony, and it was obvious that this effort wouldn't have panned out. There were just too many complex features to be implemented (for example, generics) in a single release.
>These days, large apps are written in JS, even by hand. GWT is not growing much from what I can tell, compared to its salad days. Closure is used the most within Google, and Dart has yet to replace Google's use of GWT + Closure.
Both Mozilla and Google agree on goodness of LLVM, since both PNaCl, and asm.js toolchain are based on it. Google has solved the problem of efficiently representing LLVM in a platform independent way and safely executing it in a sandboxed environment. Why not create a PNaCl and LLVM based standard to allow, efficient execution of code? Is it so difficult?
Mozilla promotes asm.js as a "standard compliant" way to do the same thing as PNaCl. However, there are a lot of disadvantages in this approach: asm.js is text based and very verbose, binary format will save a lot of traffic; asm.js doesn't provide access to SIMD and multi-threading which are crucial for good performance; asm.js won't work out of the box, it requiress some effort to support on the side of browser vendors, for example, the only browser where Unreal demo initially worked was Firefox nightly build. Is it so hard to find a consensus among browser vendors (or at least Mozilla and Google) in this respect?
If I can read through the mess, you seem to be saying you can't evaluate PNaCl, so you'll just make airy and overconfident assertions about it. Even on HN, that doesn't fly. -1!
When I challenge your further assertion that something is "easily integrated into any browser", you switch subjects to arguing for prototyping and developing a complex system before standardizing it. Good idea (but beware the difficulty standardizing it late if simpler evolutionary hops beat it in the meanwhile; more below on this). However true, that is a dodge, it does not excuse your assertion about "easily integrated".
Doubling down by citing "the DOM" as if Pepper were only about OS and DOM APIs, or as if even just the DOM implementations in different engines had enough in common to make interfacing from native code (not from JS, which is hard enough even with a decade+ history of written standards and market-driven interop testing) easy, just repeats this bad pattern. So -2.
Then you seem to confuse ES4 with Harmony (which I made clear came about after ES4 failed). -3.
At this point on USENET, you'd hear a plonk. But I'll close with one more point:
Mozilla and Google using LLVM does not equate to standardizing PNaCl. Pepper is one problem, a big one, but not the only one. Consider also the folly of using a linker-oriented intermediate representation for a shelf-stable Web-scale object file format. See Dan Gohman's "LLVM IR is a compiler IR" post:
Shortest-path evolution usually wins on the Web. Trying to standardize PNaCl -- including Pepper and LLVM IR abused or patched into shape as a long-lived object file format -- is an impossibly long, almost exclusively Google-dependent, path.
Extending JS among competing engines whose owners cooperate in Ecma TC39, via a series of much shorter and independently vetted and well-justified (by all those engine owners) path-steps? That is happening in front of your eyes.
You may not like it. You may want to say "Go home, evolution, you are drunk":
But it would be foolish to bet against evolution.
Sorry, for the bad formatting, when I understood that it's broken I wasn't able to edit it.
>At this point on USENET, you'd hear a plonk. But I'll close with one more point:
I didn't want to argue with you, I just described how it looked to me (and I mentioned it in the previous comments). I just have no expertise here and now see that there're problems which aren't mentioned by googlers in their presentations. May be you are right, may be they are right. I am sorry if I offended you.
>Shortest-path evolution usually wins on the Web. Trying to standardize PNaCl -- including Pepper and LLVM IR abused or patched into shape as a long-lived object file format -- is an impossibly long, almost exclusively Google-dependent, path.
Funny thing, it has been years since Dart started, ditto PNaCl. Who says JS is the slow path? I suspect it will get there faster (for tangible definitions of "there", e.g., a Rust2JS compiler for you) with well-focused work.
Pretty please! Excited to see pcwalton's zero.rs work, which I understand to be a prerequisite for a Rust2JS. But deeper JS integration than emscripten currently provides (e.g., mapping rust structs to harmony binary data StructTypes?) would be even more awesome. When are you going to land 749786, anyway?
Re: Dart and PNaCl--they've been useful for providing political cover to people who want to evolve JS more aggressively.
In theory it shouldn't be necessary to mal-invest in long-odds/single-vendor (and therefore hard to standardize without dominant market power) innovations at high cost, just to drive minimal investment in evolving the web in shorter-odds ways. Especially when the same company is collaborating in TC39 to evolve JS, and owns the V8 engine!
So therefore I dont like asm.js either. I much prefer LLVM or PNaCI. But that is in an ideal world. In real world i would have to agree asm.js seems the way forward. Even with asm.js being a shortcut, it would still take many years for it to gain enough traction and improvement to be really useful as an universal compiler target. Much like what is currently happening now with JVM. Except almost everyone already has a JS Engine Installed, no need to download a Java Runtime.
That way everyone can really use what ever languages that love or they want. With Everything2js.
May the day of languages independent web come faster.
We're all over performance, including SIMD. Multiple approaches but definitely up for the Dart-like direct approach. Talking to John McCutchan of Google about lining up JS on this front so Dart2JS has a complete target.