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The office I work in is entirely male, myself included, and just because don how I was raised, these types of jokes make me uncomfortable. However, after I said something about the issue, my coworkers, like most human beings, made an effort to check themselves. However, until you say something, they can't do anything about it.

I agree its a decency issue and not a sexism one.




What is indecent is that Adria Richards completely invented the bit about forking being a sexual reference ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 ), escalated her discomfort to the level of internet drama, got her employer SendGrid to support her, and didn't exactly go out of her way to petition PlayHaven to unfire one of the two guys involved. And she's now sticking to her guns even after profusive apologies from the offenders. All she had to do was turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes.

This will blow over, the guy will get a new job, but my god, it's a pretty serious defect if an immature joke about penises overheard in public can get you fired.

The best thing to do is let SendGrid and PlayHaven know your thoughts:

http://sendgrid.com/contact.html

http://www.playhaven.com/contact

The only hope I have for a positive outcome here is for either company to step in and try to clean up the mess. If they don't, I'd recommend avoiding both of them. Someone that stands up for public humiliation is not somebody you want to work with.

Related submissions about this story:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5391667

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399065


The outcome I'd want to see is for both companies and Adria Richards to apologize.

I would want him to be offered his job back (but I hope he gets better offers and I wouldn't be shocked if he hasn't already. I would certainly call him up for an interview).

If public humiliation is the new modus operandi, then it seems it is a double edged sword. I think her reputation is forever tarnished.

Maybe she had good intentions (but the more I look at the situation, and her penis reference later, less likely it seems) but her execution and decision making cost a father of 3 kids to lose his job, and his face is all over Twitter.

She was a no-name before this. I had never heard of her. Have you? Now she at the top of everyone's lips. She does talking engagements and advocacy. Well you connect the dots yourself.


My impression is that Adria Richards is not that kind of a person to apologize.


mine to, i also get the impression she is one to overreact and then justify her actions later.


Come on, she's a women... it is in her nature to overreact :-)


This, unlike the statements made by the two gentlemen at PyCon, is plainly sexism...


Well, to be honest, I hope that the fight for feminism hasn't gone so far as to mandate that "there are no psychological and behavioral differences between men and women at all" be taught as The One Truth.


You have to appreciate the irony of punishing my sexist joke in this specific thread.

(I do anyway)


Its not irony because the incident discussed here isn't sexism, its attention whoring. What you said was blatant.


Agreed, I flagged it.


This remark is unacceptable and harmful


This isn't reddit.



I'm waiting for the T-shirts about Forking and dongles to come out. This is going to be a meme now.

Also, April 1st is around the corner. It would be classic if github removed the "fork" button in response to it being offensive.


The repo they use for demos at GitHub says something like "fork? fork you!"


You write:

> All she had to do was turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes.

But I think one of the important points here is that women should not NEED to turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes. The need to ask (or resign oneself to putting up with the hostile environment) is itself a burden. Would it be acceptable to make "dumb nigger" jokes as long as anytime an African American asks you to stop you stop making the jokes while they're in the room?

I am not arguing that they WERE making sex jokes, or that it rose to the level of a firing offense, just that "she could have asked us to stop" is not a good argument. In fact, they WERE asked to stop (or rather, not to start), by the organizers of PyCon before the conference ever started. That is exactly what PyCon's non-harassment policy is about.


Can't we please advance women's rights without criminalizing sexuality by likening it to a racist hate crime? And also can we stop advocating this notion that women are delicate flowers whose fragile ears need to be protected from any mention of sex whatsoever?


As stated by others, sex jokes are not necessarily sexist jokes.


> I am not arguing that they WERE making sex jokes, or that it rose to the level of a firing offense, just that "she could have asked us to stop" is not a good argument.

What was the appropriate response, then? I honestly think assertive and honest feedback is often the most effective way to curb unwanted behavior.

> But I think one of the important points here is that women should not NEED to turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes.

Most of the time they don't. We're talking about exception handling, here. Just because a situation is less than ideal (i.e. two guys making phallic jokes at a conference) does not automatically validate a DEFCON 4 response.


Tweeting a picture isn't a DEFCON 4 response. I don't really think that it's that problematic- they were breaking the rules of the conference that they had agreed to, and calling someone out publicly is a very common method of enforcing social norms. It's not necessarily the most nuanced or feel-good method, but it's not like they had an expectation of privacy while in a crowded convention room. The overreaction here came from the guy's company, and we really don't know the whole story there.


>Tweeting a picture isn't a DEFCON 4 response.

Agree to disagree. Short of legal action or physical violence, extra-public shaming (Twitter) is about as escalated a response as I can think of.


Sex jokes are not hate speech.


How do you not recognize you're conflating two entirely different things here?


Anyone can be made uncomfortable by anything, and most people will try and not make people uncomfortable, but until they know your bothered by it they can't do anything.


This was not "just anything", and all conference participants were on notice that this SPECIFIC behavior was prohibited at PyCon.

Read the code of conduct for PyCon: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/ Not specifically the lines "Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue" and "Remember that harassment and sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes are not appropriate for PyCon."

Because of previous issues, the organizers of the conference went out of their way to make the line between what was and was not allowed quite explicit. They did this in order to avoid having participants claim they didn't know it would make someone uncomfortable.

I am not saying that this was a firing offense, or that everything which was said was intended as a sexual joke, but some of it crossed a CLEARLY marked line which had been communicated BEFORE the conference even began.


Just curious - do you read every word of every EULA you come across, or do you just get the gist of it?

Also, "Remember that harassment and sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes are not appropriate for PyCon" doesn't appear to have anything to do with what the men said, though perhaps you quoted it for the subsequent harassment on twitter?


> do you read every word of every EULA you come across, or do you just get the gist of it?

Fair question: I TRY to read every word, and I'd say I succeed no more than 10% of the time. If I had attended PyCon (I didn't make it this year) I would have been aware of the harassment policy but only because I remember the discussion LAST year (or was it the year before...) which led to the creation of the policy.

But if you are suggesting that it is OK to violate the policy just because not everyone reads it, then I have to object. Such an approach makes it impossible to maintain ANY policy. Perhaps the PyCon organizers should recognize that not everyone will have read the policy carefully and should therefore have a measured response... but in this case they DID have a measured response, and I have heard no one suggest that the PyCon organizers responded unreasonably.

As for the firing, well I have heard no one defending the company for their position either.

> Also, "Remember that harassment and sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes are not appropriate for PyCon" doesn't appear to have anything to do with what the men said

I quoted it only because of the explicit reference to "jokes".


So the jokes weren't sexist. They were still sexual, which was still forbidden.


Adria did not initially raise this as a "sexism" issue from what I can see -- just something the made her uncomfortable.


This makes me uncomfortable: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425

"Adria: you should put something in your pants next time .. like a bunch of socks inside one...large...sock. TSA agent faint."

So apparently it's ok to be sexual/hostile in someone else's work environment, just not your own?


Your link is (was) 404.

Anyway, I frankly don't give a damn whether Adria is a good person or not. People are criticizing her for a specific set of actions that don't seem to be in line with what actually happened. It exposes a lot of sloppy, biased thinking that is the real problem here. :(


I think the majority of criticism is that she escalated things so rapidly to publicly shaming people who didn't deserve it costing a man his job over a silly dick joke that that majority of women wouldn't have batted an eye over.

If she didn't publicly identify him, no one would have cared. If she had simply notified the conference staff, no one would have cared. She took it to extremes, and now the internet is responding in kind.


Adria did NOT fire this man. As far as I can tell, she never ran a campaign to get him fired. What she did was to report what occurred, including the names of those involved.

If your local newspaper ran an article exposing a scandal, and the participants in the scandal got in trouble because it came to light, would you blame the newspaper?

If this was a minor offense that no one should have cared about, then reporting it is fine -- there's no harm done. If this was a major issue that justifies strong reactions, then reporting it is fine -- justice is served. I fear that the real position is "My employer thinks this is a major issue worth firing over, but I want to keep doing it anyway so you have an obligation to keep this under wraps for me." and I do not think that is a defensible position to take.


What she did was to make a mountain out of a molehill by playing Internet vigilante. I could have understood her attitude if she had found herself to be the object of sex(ist) jokes, but taking offense because two guys, who apparently are paying no attention to her, are sharing a not-so-funny vaguely sexual joke, does not warrant the Internet equivalent of burning them at the stake.

Comparing her to a reporter is disingenuous. That's hardly a fair and balanced piece she has written. More importantly, if my newspaper started behaving like the Sexual Temperance Society, I would promptly cancel my subscription.


> Comparing her to a reporter is disingenuous.

Actually, I intended that comparison sincerely; it was not disingenuous.

> That's hardly a fair and balanced piece she has written.

Not all reporting is balanced. If it were INACCURATE, you would have a point, but presenting one side of the story is still journalism.

> if my newspaper started behaving like the Sexual Temperance Society, I would promptly cancel my subscription.

I would encourage you to unsubscribe to Adria's blog and twitter. Much like any crank with a printing press, she has absolutely no power, except that a large number of people happen to listen to her. If fewer people listen, then her ability to affect others goes down proportionately. There are many newspapers that print a highly one-sided and slanted view of the news focused heavily on scandals (The Sun, New York Post, and many others). I do not buy these, but I will defend their right to attend a conference and publish true information about things that a person said in public while there.


> I would encourage you to unsubscribe to Adria's blog and twitter.

This would require me to subscribe in the first place :)

> I do not buy these, but I will defend their right to attend a conference and publish true information about things that a person said in public while there.

Nobody has been calling for establishing censorship. However, I wish the Sun would stop printing rubbish, just as I'd like Adria to exercise more judgment in exercising her free speech rights.


You yourself posted the Code of Conduct, in which it states not only that harassment is 'not appropriate' (same as sexual language), but also that "We do not tolerate harassment of conference participants in any form" - and naming and shaming on twitter is a form of harassment.


> naming and shaming on twitter is a form of harassment

That is an interesting point and one I had not considered. I will think about it. Thank you for expanding my mind today.


the question is what is worse - making an inmature dick joke or uploading a picture of someone and expose and discredit him publicly to thousands of people. I think with that action she did herself and her company a disservice. maybe taking the feminism thing too serious? https://securecdn.disqus.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/457/3...


She clearly states on her blog that

"this wasn't the first time that day I had to address this issue around harassment and gender."

Generally speaking, I think "harassment and gender" going together make it fit the definition of sexism.

Regardless, she does classify it as "harassment".


She didn't use the exact word 'sexism', but her blog post very much made it out to be a sexism issue.


Did she? I just read the entire post, and I disagree.

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont...

It certainly exists within the context of gender issues at a tech conference, but she didn't even go so far as to label the jokes sexist -- just something that would make some women uncomfortable. (Which is obviously true, given her response!)


Yes, she did- "this wasn't the first time that day I had to address this issue around harassment and gender."

She clearly states in her blog she felt it involved "harassment and gender", which is often referred to as sexism.


She also projects her own fantasy onto a little girl, apropos of nothing, already proclaiming the girls career in tech dead in the water.

She did the right thing by notifying conference staff and letting them handle it. She did the wrong thing by naming and shaming on twitter. The blog post reads like a mix of real event and revisionism to stem angry internetters.

Still, it's a storm in a teacup - who's to say the same guy wasn't on the verge of being let go for other reasons anyway? It's presumptuous to assuming his firing was solely because of this single event.


I think there are tougher but better ways to deal with the issue (like facing the two men) than to hide behind your twitter followers.


She "hid" by directly notifying the conference organizers through twitter. You can make the claim that it shouldn't have been done in public; you can't exactly also argue that she was hiding.


She was hiding in real life, while being a "badass" on the internet. I think I'm going to open a bait shop myself, and call it "Big Dongles."


So, people that are uncomfortable with direct confrontation are only allowed to 'sit down and shut up?'


No. Instead of posting someone's photo (and other's along with that) on the web confront them. If they do not apologize or shut up in shame, move to authorities. Authorities at Pycon did help her, didn't they?


  | Instead of posting someone's photo (and other's
  | along with that) on the web confront them
Your plan of action for someone "uncomfortable with direct confrontation" is to "confront them." Logic!

[ She should have just gone to (or messaged) the PyCon staff first to resolve the situation. ]


She turned around, smiled and took their photograph. She can do that and not confront them about the lewd remarks?

Though, I understand that it is tough for women to confront in a massively male-dominated arena. I think this fiasco is likely to at least have men straighten their ways that they cannot make sex jokes in a public place.


  | She can do that and not confront them about
  | the lewd remarks?
As someone that doesn't like to be confrontational, this makes sense to me. Verbally confronting them means engaging them in conversation. Taking their photo and smiling at them is a bit more passive.


well a few years ago a team member said "oh I cant go to a social event with the team" as he was upper caste.

I did not raise a fuss and get him fired - though we where all shocked.




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