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And the point is that the arguments he made about why dbus is useful (a lightweight IPC mechanism with use cases not covered by UNIX sockets or TCP sockets, doing much more) and why do we need a gnome session on the gdm (to get i18n, network and accessibility features you need most if not all of the session) are well reasoned and make sense to us out of the loop.

Could you provide the counterarguments?




Yes. dbus effectively breaks network transparency of x11 apps and turns Linux into a Desktop-Single-User OS. While I'm not regually writing desktop applications i have never ever missed dbus. And ipc mechanisms have a tendency to become unpleasant (Corba, SOAP).

I don't have a gnome session in my login manager because I don't need i18n for the words "login" and "password". (although that would be totally possible without a whole gnome session). I don't have a braille line so i can't say anything about accessibility, but that should be (in a ideal unix world) a single printf to /dev/braille. Also the feedback is audible and visual, this seems to be no issue to me.

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Accessibility is actually a requirement in many countries (per law). Obviously not everyone needs it, but just that you do not need it doesn't negate that others do.

Edit: Plus saying X breaks Y so X is not needed is not a good argument. Because you have not addressed if X is needed or not, only said that Y breaks.

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I have no idear how "accessibility" is defined. I'd say getty is quite accessible, but well, I don't know, I never relied on it. But yet, that is no excuse to start a hole desktop. Just like a program can use gtk (theoretically) without a gnome desktop it should be able to do the same with for a braille display.

I think I can safely say that if X breaks Y, and I need Y than X sucks. Especially if it worked before X came. X made things worse.

/edit: I think that's why Poettering is hated so much. There was community on the Nixes, with their own ecosystem and their own way to do stuff. It's wasn't always beautiful or nice, but their had their way to solve stuff so it would a kind of blend in with the rest. And then Poettering wants to turn it into MacOS X or Windows and adds stuff new users probably appreciate, but the old users never misses. There is a cultural shock. And then it breaks backwards compatibility. It shouldn't suprise anybody that this product should rather be superb and not just medicore to accepted.

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