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> What some politicians are proposing right now is an outright snub of the 2nd amendment

So what? Maybe the 2nd amendment is wrong, or a bad idea, or a 200 year old proclamation that is no longer relevant in modern times? People's attachment to this clause is just... fundamentalist.

And why do people insist on equating gun ownership with freedom? You're not allowed to own bombs or missiles, does that also mean I am not free?

There's lots of things we're not free to do which actually makes us freer: not to steal, or house break, or kill people. I for one am glad my freedom is curtailed in this manner. It means i can live in a (largely) peaceful and safe society, and am free to go about my business with minimum threat to my existence or assets. And further adding to my sense of security is the knowledge that I am very unlikely to ever be threatened, injured or killed by a gun as almost no one owns one here - because they are illegal.

Everybody in Europe manages just fine without owning guns, what makes american's so special? why do you need to own a gun? (yeah sure, self defence, but if no one had them in the first place that wouldn't be necessary)




Everybody in Europe manages just fine without owning guns

Errr, that turns out not to be the case. Look at the results of the 2007 Small Arms Survey at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_owners... and you'll see it's pretty well armed (drill down to the PDF and even legal registration levels are a lot higher than I suspect you think).

In the other direction, when it comes to mass shootings Europe has been doing worse than the US as of late:

From Wikipedia, school shootings in Europe in this century, last two numbers are killed and wounded:

  R., Georg, 18, Sep. 17 2009, Germany, 0, 10-15
  Kretschmer, Tim, 17, March 11, 2009, Germany, 15, 9-13
  De Gelder, Kim, 20, Jan. 16/23,, 2009, Belgium, 4, 12
  Saari, Matti Juhani, 22, Sep. 23, 2008, Finland, 10, 1-3
  Auvinen, Pekka-Eric, 18, Nov. 7, 2007, Jokela, Finland, 8, 1
  Bosse, Bastian, 18, Nov. 20, 2006, Germany, 0, 22
  Steinhäuser, Robert, 19, April 26, 2002, Germany, 16, 1
Other spree shootings in Europe in this century:

  Merah, Mohammed, 23,  March 11–22, 2012, Toulouse & Montauban, France, 7, 8
  Amrani, Nordine, 33,  Dec. 13, 2011, Liège, Belgium, 6, 123 (he also used grenades)
  Breivik, Anders Behring, 32, July 22, 2011, Norway, 75, 242 (a bomb killed 8)
  van der Vlis, Tristan, 24, April 9, 2011, Netherlands, 6, 17
  Radmacher, Sabine, 41, Sep. 19, 2010, Germany, 3, 18 (arson was also used)
  Bird, Derrick, 52, June 2, 2010, United Kingdom, 12, 11
  Sacco, Angelo Secondo, 54, June 28, 2005, Italy, 3, 9
  Antonello, Mauro, 40,  Oct. 15, 2002, Italy, 7
  Durn, Richard, 33,  March 27, 2002, France, 8, 19
  Selamet, Ozan, 42,  Jan. 18, 2002, Belgium, 6 (2 strangled)
  Roux-Durrafourt, Jean-Pierre, 44,  Oct. 29, 2001, France, 4, 7
  Leibacher, Friedrich, 57, Sep. 27, 2001, Switzerland, 14, 18
  Kaya, Hakan, 24,  Dec. 22, 2000, Germany, 6


"when it comes to mass shootings Europe has been doing worse than the US as of late"

This is false.

"school shootings"

Europe: 65, US: 85

"Other spree shootings"

Europe: 93, US: 121

Europe has over twice the population of the US.


I'm only counting "Western Europe", excepting the former East Germany, west of the old Iron Curtain for a whole bunch of reasons.

Where do you get 85 school shooting deaths (?) in this century? VT 32 + Newtown 24 = 56. (In all cases I do not count the shooter if he died.) Plus I'm also pointing out that there were a lot more school shooting incidents.

It's too late for me to go into spree shootings, but ... when I just added up the deaths for Europe from my list, I got 157.


"Where do you get 85 ..."

I just output the wiki lists it appeared you were working from. Once you start selectively editing you open yourself up to acts of cherry picking so I didn't edit anything. It's possible that I missed string entries that didn't follow a sort on the date column, I'll take a look again later but here is my list for us school spree shootings this century:

Lanza 27 Goh 7 Kazmierczak 5 Cho 32 Roberts 5 Weise 9 Total 85


Fair enough on the US side, although your addition on others still looks to be off, e.g. I get 53 for European schools, and you still haven't addressed the 157.

But arguing over simple body counts reeks of Vietnam War insanity; that Europe is not doing well in this is undeniable, worse or not is a debatable point, the statement that "Everybody in Europe manages just fine without owning guns..." is obviously falsifiable in every particular, i.e. they have lots of guns and they misuse them as well.


What makes American's so special is the fact that we are a unique country. A country that was built on our core values, as they are laid out in our constitution of the united states that has guided us and has never steered us wrong.

We are the same country that came to the worlds aid (and europe, especially) during WW1 and WW2.

Our beliefs aren't perfect. They just happen to be less wrong then others, IMHO... and in the opinion of a large majority of our country.

If you can't understand why the right to keep and bear arms is an essential aspect of being american then you are short sighted and have refused to see how history repeats itself over and over throughout mankind.

I 100% believe Benjamin Franklin said it best when he said the following: "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Once you start picking apart our constitution, little by little, you soon open up the flood gates for rights and liberties to be taken away much more easily.

They can already wire-tap without a warrant. Now they want the guns. This is how it starts...

First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.

Lets modify the above...

First they came for the assault rifles, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own one.

Then they came for the bolt action rifles, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own one.

Then they came for the pistols, and I didn't speak out because I didn't own one.

Then they came for me, and there was no one left with the capabilities to defend me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Having the ability to arm yourself and defend yourself and uprise against OUR OWN GOVERNMENT should the need arise is specifically why the 2nd amendment was written the way it was... and I believe they felt very strongly about this. It's #2 on the list after all.

When we try to outsmart the people that made our great country, we usually mess it up.

Just my 2c.


"constitution of the united states that has guided us and has never steered us wrong"

Slavery?


Errr, without accepting slavery there wouldn't have been a Constitution or United States of America. And it did provide a mechanism for outlawing it, although that of course just ratified the outcome on the battlefields.

[ Clarified: it -> slavery. ]


I have no idea what your point is.

"Errr, without accepting it there wouldn't have been a Constitution or United States of America. "

Maybe this is also true about the second amendment?

"And it did provide a mechanism for outlawing it"

Maybe this is also relevant to gun control?




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