Basically, every evangelism point, you have to double-check and cross-reference, because as you say, the NoSQL guys are encountering issues the RDBMS community addressed years ago (7 in my example, but the sharding stuff, 20+ years) - except they think they are discovering it for the first time!
There's also the tendency to favor new shiny things and reject old crufty (but proven) things, to want to be part of what seems like the leading edge, to be that guy in the cube farm who is playing with the cool new stuff.
I have been programming longer than RDBMSs have been available, so I know from experience what it's like to manage large databases in application code, and how hard it can be to maintain consistency or do accurate queries and aggregation with half-baked tools. It's frustrating to see a new generation of programmers go through this, but it's human nature to ignore the past.
My fourteen year old son wears his pants pulled down below his waist, Vans shoes, hoodies, lots of hair. He looks pretty much like I did when I was fourteen back in the 1970s. The underlying technologies are the same: pants, shirt, shoes, sweater, hair. The only differences are superficial. To him that style is edgy and contemporary and something his parents don't get. NoSQL is the gangster fashion of programming right now.
A lot of people who are working with / building and using 'NoSQL' databases are the very same people building the RDBMS tools that you are so eager to defend.
You have stated elsewhere that you do not know anything about 'NoSQL' stores, so instead of insulting a huge number of people far more experienced than yourself, why dont you attempt to learn? (or at the very least, avoid disregarding the thoughts of a huge sector of the industry)
I suggest taking exchanges of opinion less personally.
You have stated elsewhere that you do not know anything about 'NoSQL' stores
No, I didn't. I have read about them, gone to conferences, and gone through tutorials for a few NoSQL products, but haven't had a use for them in my own work. Since I have 35+ years of programming and database experience I am not viewing these things through the eyes of a newb. And I have lots of experience with database management pre-RDBMS. I did say I haven't found any use for the current batch of NoSQL tools in my own projects, but obviously lots of other people have. And I have clearly indicated that everything I write is my opinion based on my experience, not word from on high. Again, get a grip.
instead of insulting a huge number of people far more experienced than yourself
No insult intended. My opinions, your mileage may vary. Ad hominem attacks are, on the other hand, deliberate insults.
why dont you attempt to learn? (or at the very least, avoid disregarding the thoughts of a huge sector of the industry)
Thanks for the career advice. My advice to you and some of the other commenters frothing at the mouth is to disconnect your ego from your preferred tools.
Where I am less convinced is outside the high-end, and outside the idea of a transition tier between input and RDBMS (or between RDBMS and output even). As a persistence layer, NoSQL is applicable largely to the subset of cases where Object Oriented Databases were. Here the GP is right that the industry is keen on relearning the same lessons every couple of decades.... However, as pre-processing and post-processing, there seems to me to be a much larger set of use cases out there but again only where the RDBMS is no longer really able to handle everything you want it to do.
I'm using it on one of my projects, and as I said, there are things to like about it, but graph traversals remain problematic. Overall, I'd say I'm pretty unhappy with MongoDB, and I wish I hadn't chosen it; it doesn't work well for my project. A lot of things I'm doing boil down to performing some kind of graph traversal, which is painful to do at runtime in Mongo (the potential solution space is too large to be precomputed). From what I've seen, MongoDB hasn't been working for me very well with a highly-connected data set.
Of course Mongo ain't the best at relational data... :o
If you aren't concerned about your data on input then you can't reliably transform it on output, right?
In this regard fixed schemas slow down one side of development (handling input) but speed up another side (handling output, and related tasks like reporting).
So who is the inexperienced one here ?
Some of the biggest companies e.g. Twitter, Foursquare, Google, Amazon all rely on NoSQL.
The real issue I see is that by dismissing NoSQL as only for fools RDBMS developers are failing to see why they are popular to begin with. Take PostgreSQL for example and how difficult it is to shard/replicate compared to CouchDB or MongoDB. This is an area PostgreSQL should see as an opportunity for improvement.
But dismissing huge groups of people as uneducated just makes you seem uneducated.
Most NoSQL guys I meet have little to no experience in SQL. Plenty have lots.
But do you have ask why so called inexperienced users are choosing NoSQL in the first place ? Hint: it's because most RDBMS are ridiculously complex and inflexible.
>But do you have ask why so called inexperienced users are choosing NoSQL in the first place? Hint: it's because most RDBMS are ridiculously complex and inflexible.
If we're going to have a cliche fight, this one is called having your cake and eating it too. Either inexperienced users are gravitating to NoSQL or they aren't.
Operating under the assumption that they are, I'd say it's both because they can interact with them without an impedance mismatch; also because they are flat, they are easy to visualize. Another reason might be because they don't have to put a lot of thought into their schema, which would involve new concepts that would take a little time to learn. The biggest reason in my eyes would be that they don't know how big a performance hit they're taking in a write-heavy environment.
In very read-heavy environments with wide heterogeneous queries that you would end up denormalizing in 18 different ways anyway? They could be doing it because they're smart and have done their research. I love NoSQL.
Only that if they were the current complexity of RDBMS would be a big factor. Accessing a database as a REST service like say CouchDB or having fluid schemas like MongoDB is much easier to handle than ER models.
And just like not every programming language works for every situation. Neither does every database.
every NoSQL developer I've met had a lot of experience in SQL
THAT is what data looks like, FTW.
Sharding may have been available in the 1980's, but what it lead to in some products is quite amazing. Consider Teradata's clustering ability which is sort of like sharding your database but without the disadvantages typically associated with it. Postgres-XC now offers something similar as a semi-fork of PostgreSQL.
Basically what we are talking about here is a two-tier database layer where storage and coordination are separated, and two phase commit is used between these two. Thus the coordination tier can enforce referential integrity between storage nodes if necessary and thus allow write-extensibility.
This isn't something without uses. For high-end, high-write-load databases, serving very large amounts of traffic (think airline reservations), this has been a typical approach for quite some time.
The fundamental problem though is that once you give up on local consistency over a given domain, you cannot have any guarantee of global consistency. The current relational approaches (Postgres-XC and Teradata) both enforce ACID compliance. BASE doesn't offer any consistency guarantee and therefore it is only good for throw-away data.
But my point is - when I need to use something like that, I know that's what I'm using. I don't imagine that it's some new invention. Hell, a lot of what the NoSQL guys think they're inventing, IBM did back then too - IMS.
Must be amazing to know more about databases than all of the world's biggest companies put together.
Now a days we are talking about thousands of concurrent users and up to 350k reads/sec on high end machines.
At said 60k pages/sec job, you know who we looked up to for databases? Starbucks. Walmart. McDonalds. 'Cos we'd seen what they do, and anyone who thinks Twitter is impressive, well it'd blow their minds.
The idea that it is some 1980's approach to scaling databases is laughable.
Note that I'm not intending to comment on its scalability or how appropriate it is for other projects, just that I agree with you: dismissing it out of hand is hubris.