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"While the Church may have opposed heliocentrism, Galileo defended heliocentrism, and understood correctly that it was not contrary to the Scriptures."

Biblical references Psalm 93:1, 96:10, and 1 Chronicles 16:30 include text stating that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved." In the same manner, Psalm 104:5 says, "the Lord set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Further, Ecclesiastes 1:5 states that "And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place" etc. Certainly for the Biblical literalist there are places of direct disagreement.

"For people like Galileo and Kepler, faith and reason were the same thing."

I suppose one could have 'faith in reason' (that's a great oxymoron), and one could also perhaps 'reason in faith'. But at a deeper level, the two concepts are orthogonal and irreconcilable.

"By definition, it's impossible to have faith that is not based on reason, nor is it possible to hold reason without faith."

faith - Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. reason - The power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways.

Here is the "Galileo affair" Wikipedia link for those who wish to read up on the matter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair

You are quoting from the Psalms there, that's poetry. Have you read these texts from which you quote? From cover to cover and in context? Each according to its genre? Am I to take you literally when you yourself speak of sunrise and sunset?

Your definition of faith mistakes faith for blind faith. Faith itself is based on reason, necessarily, at least that is the view throughout the Scriptures. You are wasting time on a straw man here. To say the two concepts of reason and faith are orthogonal is inaccurate. They go hand in hand. Or would you put yourself against giants?

"Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." - Paul, in his letter to Timothy.


I find it ironic that in the midst of accusing me of the straw man fallacy you blatantly appeal to authority ("would you put yourself against giants?"). Galileo took Augustine's stance, and that "giant" did not stand a chance against a horde of Machiavellian midgets who began by citing these particular passages. Alas, one cannot reason one out of a position that has not been reached by reason. In fact, arguing against a zealot (especially a very intelligent one) only serves to make their beliefs stronger. Therefore, I will save my futile rhetorical battles for situations involving a larger neutral audience. Over and out.


You know, whatever philosophy you or I profess to be right, if it causes us to speak poorly of our neighbour, or despise or harm or ridicule our neighbour in the slightest, for whatever reason, if it gives us no reason to consider others and the interests of others as more significant than ourselves, then that philosophy is point blank wrong, and of no use in describing the world or navigating it.


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