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Oracle files notice of appearance for JavaScript trademark [pdf] (deno.com)
107 points by cfnewsperson1 40 days ago | hide | past | favorite | 84 comments



Maybe we could change the filetype from .js to .bho

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litigation_involving_Apple_Inc...


<script type="module"> doesn't have "javascript" or "js" in it, fortunately. So your script can just be ECMAScript®.


Just call it JS it’s more popular than ECMAscript


JabbaScript


Call it WebScript. It has nothing to do with Java anyway.


I suppose we don’t really care anymore about WebScript[1] the scripting language of Apple’s old WebObjects framework[2].

[1] https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Le...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebObjects


This is an incredible suggestion!


This quote makes me giggle:

One does not seriously attack the expertise of a scientist using the undefined phrase 'butt-head'."


There’s another part of this story that Wikipedia leaves out

The other two original Power Mac models had the code names “Piltdown Man” and “Cold Fusion”—not exactly the sort of thing someone like Sagan would want to be implicitly associated with.


Why would Sagan not want to be associated with cold fusion?


Because it was only like 5 years after Fleischmann and Pons sparked headlines in every major newspaper as scientific frauds?


After a few weeks of excitement over the Fleischmann/Pons thing, cold fusion has never since been taken seriously by fusion researchers. It's a dead idea as far as I'm aware.


Perhaps Sagan had undisclosed resentment toward Adobe ColdFusion as well.


That'd require giving Oracle unwarranted attention.

The Sagan bit was funny because Apple engineers transitioned from loving him to resenting him :)


Seems .law (lawyers are wimps) is more fitting


It already has a name that describes its developer experience better than JavaScript. The extension should match. .es for EczemaScript.


I just learned about this case today.

Based purely on the Wikipedia description, Sagan's request seems reasonable, from a moral perspective at least. I have no idea why Apple (or its engineers) would be so butthurt about it.


Because it was just a silly internal code name for an unreleased product and Carl Sagon was just being a killjoy to his own fans. That he continued to escalate with lawsuits makes him look ridiculous frankly...


His reason was "concerned that it would become a product endorsement," and it was after the name was "publicized," which sounds reasonable to me.

The joy can only go so far, IMHO. If the namesake person asked for it, you comply—pretty simple. I can totally see why people aren’t comfortable with their name being used without permission, even without the endorsement concern.


Personally, I think the subsequent libel lawsuits demonstrates it was all just ego


So he was supposed to just accept being called "Butt-Head Astronomer"? Sure, I’d respect him more if he did, but I’m not going to call him pompous or having a big ego just because he didn’t.


It’s not very nice to call someone a butthead, but to sue over it just sort of makes their case.


I'm a bit lost here. Shouldn't the blame fall more on the people who used someone else's name without permission and acted like jerks when asked to stop?

Why are we holding the victim to a higher standard now?


It's possible for someone to have the legal right to demand something and still be a butthead for demanding it. Noting that fact doesn't make you a jerk.


As I mentioned earlier, I was not here to debate the legality of his (or Apple’s) actions, but from the moral perspective.

In my view, what the Apple engineers did was inappropriate, especially when they doubled down after being asked to stop. It’s not unlike typical bullying behaviors seen in high school ("it's just a joke, why so serious?"). Jokes on someone else are only funny when they approve them.


The moral perspective is what we're talking about. Resorting to the courts over petty nonsense is not a moral act.

Not approving the joke because you can't take a joke is a moral flaw.


That's a good point.


If he had called Apple “a butthead fruit company”, it wouldn’t make sense to hold him to higher standard.

But a legal response to some light hearted rudeness? That was him taking things to a significantly lower standard.

If instead, he had used “Butthead Astronomer” to refer to himself on occasion, that would have only added to his (already significant and well deserved) legendary status.


> If he had called Apple “a butthead fruit company”, it wouldn’t make sense to hold him to higher standard.

What is this supposed to mean?


That nobody should critique someone, for such a proportional response.


Yes, that's the nature of free speech. Butt-Head is clearly a statement of opinion and not of fact. Apple is entitled to communicate their opinion of people. It is clearly not defamatory.


Well, suing for libel clearly shows he's an idiot, since there's no claim of fact.

Usually if you file a patently frivolous lawsuit, you get sanctioned.


He always struck me as a bit of a pompous ass.


Context: "Dear Oracle, Please Release the JavaScript Trademark" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32709870


The real context is that Deno recently filed a petition to cancel the trademark: https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=92086835


Yes, and Ryan Dahl (creator of Node and Deno), posted Dear Oracle, Please Release the JavaScript Trademark on his website to market that petition.


The term “petition” is being used here in a technical legal sense. Colloquially we’d probably just call it a “lawsuit” challenging the JacvsScript trademark.


That is where this doc directly came from, not the context (i.e. background) of this event.


IP lawyers in the comments, what does this mean? It just says "NOTICE OF APPERANCE (sic) OF COUNSEL".

Is it just a bureaucratic step where Oracle says "we're not ignoring this"?


I'm not a trial attorney, but I've done more than my share of dealing with my own civil suits, and your guess is pretty much bang-on.

The rules of civil procedure generally require that the defendant in a suit file a response within a prescribed timeline, even if the response just amounts to saying, "yeah, we're here". That's what the "as required pursuant to 37 CFR §2.119 and TRADEMARK TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD MANUAL OF PROCEDURE §113.04" part is about. I'm not familiar with the specifics about federal procedure for trademark suits, and I'm not going to go look, but if you chase those references down, you're almost sure to find something like this. In some jurisdictions, failure to enter an appearance is reason enough for the other party to request a hearing to be granted default judgment, and for the court to set a date for the hearing, hear the request, and then grant it unless the defendant had a good reason for not filing a timely response.

(The other comments aren't strictly wrong, but mere information about who a given party's lawyers are is generally communicated through notices for designation of counsel.)


Basically saying "Hi, we're the lawyers for Oracle, and we've told the lawyers at Deno that we'll be in touch."


Not a lawyer, but the main purpose of this document is to tell the judge who Oracle's lawyers are for this case.


IP lawyer here - yes, this is just a bureaucratic step. In practice, even if they chose to later do nothing, they would still file a notice of appearance.

It would be silly not to, since in this case (before the TTAB) it would lead to a default judgement that would be very hard to get out of.

Even if you later choose to release the trademark, you'd still want to see all the court documents, etc.


I'm really curious about Oracle's motivation for fighting this. What value do they see in continuing to hold a trademark they aren't really using, and no one associates with them anyway?


> Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphising Larry Ellison. You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that trap about Oracle. — Brian Cantrill


You're looking at it wrong: why ever renounce anything that is already yours?

Oracle should be assumed to always take the greediest and most antisocial position in any legal or economic matter.


Do you ask a lawnmower why it chewed your hand off after sticking it in there?


For those who don't know: https://youtu.be/-zRN7XLCRhc?t=2315


It’s their asset. It came with their $7.4 billion acquisition of Sun. I know it’s popular to hate on Oracle, and it’s deserved in many cases, but any company in this situation would defend their IP. Obviously it has value or somebody wouldn’t be trying to cancel it.


> It’s their asset

To be clear, the trademark is their asset. Sun trademarked the name JavaScript in 1997, for reasons assumed to be related to Java, probably in anticipation of a use case that never arrived. This had nothing to do with the existing language JavaScript which was created in 1993, and had no relationship with Sun.

> Obviously it has value or somebody wouldn’t be trying to cancel it.

"Somebody" is trying to cancel it because Oracle have been blindly defending it, not because it has any business value to Oracle. The JavaScript language has precedence, and today it's sheer popularity and major role in open web standard means Oracle could not possibly benefit from using it for any business purpose due to the strong existing association. It's only practical purpose is to torment the JavaScript community and further cement Oracle's reputation as a litigious cancer of the technology world.

They blindly defend it because they are a mindless lawnmower that consumed it, not because they are the wiser and know it has value.


oracle is a law firm that happens to sell a database


One Rich Ass Called Larry Ellison


First rule of business: Don't give away anything for free


Big generally good full service law firm (200+ partners) VS quite small but highly specialized law firm (3 partners). https://www.hollandhart.com/ncdavis for Oracle, https://www.gerbenlaw.com/about/eric-perrott for Deno.

Interesting indeed.


If Deno loses, do they have to pay Oracle's super expensive lawyer fees? I worry that the fees are probably ridiculously high.


In America each party typically bears their own costs.


Ah! I just checked with Claude and it says:

> In the United States, the general rule is known as the "American Rule" - each party typically pays their own attorney's fees and court costs, regardless of who wins the case. This is different from many other countries that follow the "English Rule" where the losing party pays the winner's legal fees.


For the curious, one reason for the difference in rules is the different approaches to enforcing rights.

In the US there is a tendency to make private civil suits for damages a big part of this, and to rely less on government agencies to investigate and take enforcement actions.

In much of the rest of the world the is more of a tendency to have government agencies handle it. It's enough of a difference that people in the rest of the world often don't even know that a private civil suit is an option. (You can see this with GDPR. Article 79 gives individuals a right to sue, but most people seem to think their only option is to complain to a government data protection authority).

Anyway, since the US is depending on private civil suits to enforce rights the English rule of winner pays could greatly discourage those who are not well off (who are often the people most likely to have their rights violated) from suing when their rights violator has significantly more resources.


Looks like not typically unless the case is exceptional based on my reading of: https://www.tuckerellis.com/webfiles/FTD-1908-Lauridsen-Broo...


They didn't catch their misspelling of "appearance" on page 2 of this filing? It's only 2 pages long and they missed this, really?


This appears to be somebody's template that has this misspelling and lots of people have used.

I can easily find a bunch of nearly identically worried ones.

See, e.g, https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/ttabvue-91291646-OPP-4.pdf


This seems like Deno poked the bear, and now the bear feels forced to defend itself.


More likely they have everything to gain and nothing to lose. They can do it in their sleep, as far as those managing business strategy at Oracle go. The legal department will handle the legal stuff and the PR department will the PR stuff if needed (unlikely).


JavaScript is dead. Long live YavaScript.


JS, ECMAScript.


This is a much better url: https://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pno=92086835

In Claim 2, Deno shows Oracle basically just capture nodejs website and calms this trademark is still in use. How crazy this is.


No surprise here. If someone files to cancel your trademark and you want to fight it, you file an appearance.


The surprise (kind of) is that Oracle wants to fight it.


“…You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don’t anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it’ll chop it off, the end. You don’t think ‘oh, the lawnmower hates me’ – lawnmower doesn’t give a shit about you, lawnmower can’t hate you. Don’t anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don’t fall into that trap about Oracle.” – Bryan Cantrill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=2308s


They have something valuable and they gain nothing from giving it up.


What value do they get from it? And in order to keep it, they must expend resources, and negative PR (although Oracle already had a bad enough reputation, that this would probably be negligible).


> negative PR

Laughs in Larry Ellison

It is just transactional corporate logic. You do not give up something unless you get something of greater value in return. You do not do things for good will, you do things for PR, etc. and sure as hell don’t let them fly under the radar. If some middle or senior manager let that fly without a blessing from the top, they would be ostracized.

I’m not saying it’s right, but I’ve been part of that culture and understand it very well.

Part of owning trademarks is defending them, and Oracle has plenty, so the cost is de minimis.

Even if the trademark is not doing anything for them now, it provides optionally they would not otherwise have. It may also be a negotiation tool down the road.


You would file an appearance anyway, because who wants a default judgement?


TypeScript solves this.


this is my favorite take.

“oracle’s trademark sucks, long live microsoft’s trademark”


WebAssembly solves it better.


I mean, its just about the trademark. ECMAScript solves this.


Clsssic oracle


Classic Oracle, filing some bureaucratic paperwork letting the court know they have representation in this case?


It is wild how far Oracle has fallen. All the way down to bureaucratic patent trolls. Sad.


It was called LiveScript at first. It's a better name anyway why not use it?


I thought Java was a country.


Oracle re-invents the PNG.


Yeah, good luck. That trademark was diluted some time ago.




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