Men, be friends with women. On the whole, they tend to be better at it. If a man can learn to be friends with women he can then form better friendships with men. And be better able to discern which men to bother to pursue friendships with. That was one of my takeaways from this (and also from my actual life).
As a man I find it far easier to have a friendship with another man because the whole sexual element is entirely absent and it seems much easier to find stuff we have in common to talk about.
Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem.
>Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem.
That still sounds so alien and crazy to me. My friendship, when I grew up has always been a good mix of men and women. We never cared about that. No one gave a shit if anyone got naked and changed clothes (or for whatever reason). And a few of them had a relationship with eachother. In the friend group there was never anything sexual. We were/are just friends. It's weird to me that people think it ain't possible
People don't think it ain't possible.
Just that it isn't common and there is a sexual tension in the end.
And when you are in a relationship there are insecurities.
This perspective is so mind-blowing to me. I'm Western European, and all of my male friends have female friends, all of my female friends have male friends. That's what's normal to me. When I hear people say things like "friendship between men and women always has sexual tension," that's what sounds "not normal" to me.
I guess it has a lot to do with cultural norms and gender roles.
I'm not sure if this was the intention, but while I believe anyone can be friends, the comment about 'if anyone got naked and changed clothes' doesn't seem entirely typical for most cultures.
When we go skiing, for example, we all change from jeans into Winter clothes outside the car after parking at the resort. I've seen most of my friends in their undies, regardless of gender. It's not sexual, it's just convenient.
I have no idea how common these types of situations are elsewhere.
I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just finding myself more and more blocked when it comes to discussing such topics.
Your friends have friends of different sex - I get it, but for how long we would have to debate here to check if there really is no sexual tension there. Where does relationships come from then in those groups? None of those friends become pairs/partners? There are no ex-lovers who after 10-20 years are coming back together from the "friendship phase". Etc.
On the other hand, I never said that there is only sexual tension. Just that it's hard for me to imagine a world where it's not important.
Maybe I'm just confused about what you mean by sexual tension. If I'm attracted to somebody, I feel out what they think. If they don't feel the same, then that's that. Same the other way around.
If people agree that they like each other, then there is sexual tension, because they both instigate that sexual tension.
If they aren't attracted to each other, then there's obviously no chance of sexual tension in the first place.
For some people I see on the Internet, sex seems to be an overwhelming factor in their lives, and they see all relationships through that lens, but I've never observed that in real life. Sex and romantic relationships are just one part of people's lives, and most friendships are never perceived through that lens.
Sexual interest is not wholly absent from my mixed gender friendships. But I wouldn't call it "tension" in most cases. Some are people I have been intimate with before, but now that is in the past. Some are now married with children and I am friends with their spouses (and kids) and would never, ever try to inject sex. Some I am not at all attracted to, and some are not at all attracted to me.
And some I hope to someday fool around with!
It's not simple, but the vast majority of the time it is not a problem either. The real problem comes from jealous partners, and I personally would never date someone who is so jealous that they cause problems with my existing friendships.
For example, I'm friends with most of my exes. We're all in new relationships. I sometimes go out for dinner with one of them to catch up on life and talk. There is no sexual tension at all, because we are in different relationships, so sex is not something we even think about!
If we were both single and an ex would call me and ask if I'm alone tonight and if she can drop by and watch a movie, then that would be a completely different situation, and there very likely would be sexual tension. But this is highly situational and has more to do with circumstances than with the people involved.
Just because I had sex with a person in the past or might in the future or could in theory does not mean that there is constant sexual tension between us.
Not normal to be friends with any exes or people you've had sex with? Maybe not too common in ones 20's, but more likely by their 30's or 40's.
Lot's of friendships start with brief dating/hookup that doesn't lead anywhere romantically. And frequently major relationships leave bonds that persist after the relationship ends. I'd be hard pressed to think of ANYONE I know who does not have at least one friendship like that (I'm early 40s).
I'll acknowledge that I speak from a privileged position, but from up here in my ivory tower, I can see that a lasting relationship is necessarily founded on trust.
Sometimes in life we develop defense mechanisms that are self defeating. I bet a lot of us are familiar with the conundrum of the IT department that always says "no." The environment becomes too constrained for work to be done, so the rest of the business develops shadow IT out of necessity.
Telegraph to your partner that it's unsafe to discuss their friendships with the opposite sex with you, and they will start hiding that information from you.
In my experience, being in a stable monogamous relationship makes it easier to be friends with the opposite sex because it reinforces that it is strictly platonic.
It works especially well if they are also in relationships and if your partner is also in your social circle. Couples hanging out with other couples is a really strong basis for friendship.
The last part is key IMO - there are communities where the activity involves spending solitary time alone with the other party, and that tends to be much harder to do stably with opposite sex partners without some kind of sexual relationship forming, regardless of other relationships.
> Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem.
What do you suppose a monogamous bi person would do?
All this normalized controlling jealousy out there is so strange and sad to me as someone in open relationships full of bi people. We're happy for each other if someone has a good time when we're apart, we all hang out together and have a good time, even go to furry cons and get up to shenanigans together.
From what I recall of a lecture I once listened to on human sexual behaviors, the drive to at least have encounters with multiple people is very common and makes evolutionary sense as far as adding diversity to your offspring pool.
I'll go as far as to say the expectation of strict monogamy is a repressive social norm that leads to needless heartache and shame from the effects of cheating, on both parties - of course breaking the boundaries of a relationship is one's own avoidable choice, and the cheater is wrong to do so and bears the blame here, but the fact that it's such a common occurance supports the argument here - the repressed urge was so strong it overrode their care for the relationship. How many relationships would have been saved if sex wasn't seen as such a big deal? In the age of contraception, PreP, vaccines, etc. I don't see the value to society in strict sexual monogamy as a norm.
It's very easy to leave the sexual element out of your co-ed relationships.
It's very easy to have things in common with the opposite gender.
Women tend to be extremely willing to talk about their feelings while men bottle them up due to societal expectations and gender norms, so women make great friends for men.
If your significant other can't handle you having friends of the opposite sex they are not being reasonable. (It's not like you have to have sleepovers or something!)
If you or your partner are the sort of person who might cheat, then sure I guess. But I personally wouldn't want to be in a relationship where cheating was on the cards and we had to regulate our social lives to prevent it. I don't think that's healthy.
My husband and I have been in a rock solid relationship for over a decade, and we don't have any issues with opposite-sex friendships. It would be weird if we did because it would mean that we couldn't have any mutual friends and share a social life together as a couple. That seems really unnatural and unhealthy to me.
To add, depending on the context, this could also be a sign of controlling behavior. Policing who your partner is friends with is pretty classic controlling behavior, but insisting your partner not be friends with their preferred gender is also "normal" in certain circles. I don't think that's a healthy norm, but it is important context.
For instance, if someone's partner said they couldn't be friends with men/women, and then tried to create distance between them and their family, then I would advise them to leave that relationship immediately. That would be a dangerous situation.
Seems to me like such an act wouldn't be such a big deal if it wasn't usually surprising. I don't know what it would mean for it to be "on the cards".
Given the right circumstances, even an evidently unlikely scenario can become more plausible in the mind of the other, and you only ever have your own perspective to rely on in terms of what you think those scenarios or the predicate conditions are.
That doesn't mean it will happen or has happened or should be considered as a real possibility, but imo it does mean that if people could control for it, it wouldn't catch them off gaurd, which necessarily depends on it being unexpected.
And maybe any of those thoughts are indicative of being in a bad place relationship wise, it happens from time to time, it can be talked about, things aren't constant forever
I'm honestly surprised your comment isn't grey. Mind adding something to help others understand what you feel is obvious? I am left to assume why you think it is healthy and the only reason i can come up with is "boys and girls can't be trusted around each other" - and lack of trust and lack of contact doesn't feel like a basis for any kind of relationship.
In my experience, these types of people have given approximately zero minutes of thinking time to bi people. Or any other kind of person, for that matter. They know their perspective and that's all, and that's how they intend to keep it forever.
> Also, if you are in a relationship, having friendships with other females will likely be a problem.
If you allow a partner this much control over your life, you'll suffer for it. If you're pre-suffering in hopes of landing a partner who will mistreat you, you're missing out on life (and potential healthy partners who expect you to not be a weirdo in the presence of other women). Turns into a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Take note of the other men talking about their successes in this regard before dismissing the concept out of hand. Or, take it from a lesbian: most of my friends are women. If women were hard-wired to hate their partners' female friends, we wouldn't ever show up to a softball game. It's the culture: seek people whose culture provides a stable and healthy basis for life.
I've never understood it when I meet men who only have male friends. I understand people are the product of their environments, how they grow up, etc. - but so many of the comments sibling to this one just confuse the hell out of me. Many of my closest friends are also male (I'd say it's close to 50-50...), and none of them have feelings, either. Do these commenters also think gay men have solely female friends, and that non-binary people all live in remote caves, isolated from each other the same as with cisgendered folk?
> I've never understood it when I meet men who only have male friends.
to be fair, I barely have male friends. The extra friction with a hetero woman basically makes it impossible for that to happen organically like it could 10-20 years prior. It's just hard to "stick" with people as you leave the college days. And be it due to bad luck or personal looks or personality or whatnot, I haven't had many people try to keep the connection.
I've been trying to do some small chat with meetup aquaintances online and sometimes it just feels like I'm throwing in more job applications with the respose rate I get. It takes two to tango.
>Do these commenters also think gay men have solely female friends, and that non-binary people all live in remote caves, isolated from each other the same as with cisgendered folk?
Not particularly. I know there's a lot of special interests groups focused around LGBT communities, so that lived identity is a strong bonding point. Not so much for a hetero male like myself (the "default"). That's also why dating apps for homosexual people tend to have much higher success rates.
I think there are two things that lead people to think like that
1) Modesty/nudity-taboo culture. I can only speak to the US-American perspective here, but I'd guess it's similar in any culture where nudity is taboo. Because you're taught to keep your body covered (and women's bodies moreso than men's) and that you shouldn't--a "should" imbued with moral weight here--see the naked bodies of others unless it's a locker room or you're about to have sex. This creates a kind of mystique around bodies, especially of another gender. With same gender friends, you probably see their bodies occassionally in locker rooms, or just changing casually, maybe skinny dipping, etc... which removes much of the mystique. But in these cultures it's unusual to see a different gender friend nude, so there is some mystery. If there is any sexual attraction that adds to the mystery and creates "tension". In cultures with less modesty or less taboo around nudity, you just see your friends of any gender naked and there is no mystery, and no tension around bodies.
2) Abstinence-only sex education & the sanctity of sex. In cultures where sex is seen as sacred, something you should only do with one person and for procreation, there is also an extent to which sexual attraction itself is shamed. I find that a lot of straight people (especially those without queer friends) feel ashamed if they find their friends attractive, and are unable to continue a platonic friendship if they feel any attraction at all. This is not at all how queer friend groups operate, it's expected you might be attracted to your friends but that doesn't mean you need to have sex or have "tension". The idea that you can be attracted to someone and just not make a problem out of it is very controversial in straight culture sometimes
People who believe men and women can't be friends are also in general only thinking about straight cis people. This idea is just absent from queer culture, and also (anecdotally) from straight cis people with many queer friends
This is it right here. Bodies are innately sexual always and sexuality is sacred/naughty/bad/too intense to ignore/whatever. Sex may be used to sell us things, but it doesn’t mean we aren’t a repressed society. Hence why having any relationship with a woman is stated as a problem why others are completely confused who didn’t grow up with this repressed idea of sexuality.
People in general rightfully believe that sexual passion is a powerful force that can be creative or destructive. Just like electricity it must be approached with caution. Queer or whatever culture works because a few bare wires won't start a fire so long as all other wires are isolated, but if the rest of society adopts this mindset, a major fire will be a matter of time.
I agree that friendships with women can be really fulfilling, but I've never had it work long-term without lines getting blurred and usually instigated by the woman. Friendships with men are reliably less complicated.
Men-to-men is often much less complicated, many things are understood automatically, agreement comes quicker, if sports then having similar level is more probable.
Of course I mean just true friendships, not some hunting for next partner in disguise (or something I saw quite often - keeping group of 'friends' around for next loneliness period to choose next partner from - both men and women are equally guilty here, there was always some weird little dynamics happening under the bonnet).
Guy-guy relationship at the end can easily be 100% honest and true friendship which is what men are normally looking for, guy-woman rarely so, even if they keep acting and telling themselves its just that. Biology is not something you can keep denying for long under various circumstances.
As for the main topic generally, I'd suggest either joining some group of people practicing sport one likes, or even better organize something for others. If you want dating, women will notice, they always like seeing competence and self-sufficiency.
Women - if you have good close straight male friends, and you are at least a bit attractive - don't think for a second they didn't at least once have a fantasy of having sex/dating you, most probably more than once. Maybe not 100% of men, but 98-99% for sure, we are not that complicated.
I find these perspectives to be steeped in sexist and outdated stereotypes. Women know if men are attracted to them. It's OK! That does not need to hinder the relationship at all. And no friendship is "100% honest and true" until that relationship has endured many years of change and challenges. Those situations are so rare that it would be foolish and sad to pretend it can only occur with specific gender sets.
I'm guessing/hoping you are fairly young because though I can see how these perspectives make a lot of sense in the early part of life, by the time we are adults we should view these ides as simplistic and silly.
Mine was that good hangout time with other guys is working on projects together, regardless of how meaningful that project may or may not be. It's really nice to get your mind off of whatever was racing across it all day to think about a stupid old car or 3d printer or digging holes in a yard.
I just can't do it. I even turned myself into a woman and I still can't, as a lesbian, be platonic friends with other women.
There's no middle ground between "She is not that interesting to me, we can be online pen pals but I have no interest in visiting her" and "I'm attracted to her and can't think about anything else"
You can have good friendships with other men. Friendships with women is not a necessary contingent precedent for that.
Also reversing your statement to use women sounds immediately sexist: "...And be better able to discern which women to bother to pursue friendships with." The corollary being that not all women are good women, or worth your friendship, just because they're women.
I grew up with a hand’s full of sisters. I prefer female friends to male friends.
I just lack the experience with the vernacular of male interactions.
I am great at making friends, but I am apparently terrible at keeping them.
If the woman identifiess as cis het then either they start to develop feelings for me or accuse me of having feelings for them. (even in the absence of such feelings)
If they identify as queer they eventually remove me from their lives as I am either unwelcome in their circles or they are ridiculed for having a “cis het white male” friend; even when I consider, and identify, myself as more open than a hard het. (It appears if you say you are uncomfortable with labels people make them up for you and then apply their unique biases.)
I’m unsure how to square that circle. I’ve resolved to just keep repeating the same cycles.
Yeah, I never got the perspective of the people who said otherwise. It's wild how throughout my life I've met people who put 50% of the entire population into "can't be friends with them" group. Maybe I'm just lucky, but all of my male friends have women friends and vice-versa. Grew up in different countries as well, so it's really cross-cultural if one puts a bit of effort.
It depends on how handsome the guy is. Imagine the following situation. Comp-sci class in uni. 30 guys, 5 women. 4 hit on you. 3 offer sex. Date one, and it's a shitshow. I'm not even talking about other guys being jealous.
Alternatively, after experiencing other modalities of friendship, you may realize that some of the men you're "friends" with are actually just bullying you, and dump them.
I imagine that when you stand up to them, your frenemy would say, jeez, when did you get so sensitive. I've been mocking and undermining you for years, so what's the problem?
Men's friendships often involve good natured jabs, but sometimes insecure men will use that as cover to treat you like a doormat. Life is too short to be fodder for their ego.
Also, it's not generally true that you'll lose access to one modality of friendship if you learn another. People move between different friend groups and subcultures all the time and code switch as necessary. (I don't doubt that some people have trouble with this, however.)
> Men's friendships often involve good natured jabs
It's true, they often do. And I find it to be one of the least valuable and most insecure aspects of friendship. My best relationships with any gender, romantic or otherwise, have involved little or no negging and a whole lot of honest communication and building each other up.
I completely disagree. Jabs are a way of being able to tell someone something without bottling it up or getting too serious about it. It’s infinitely better than sitting down and “having a talk about it” which sours the relationship. They’re invaluable and without them relationships feel shallow.
There are many other ways to accomplish that. Eg, using other forms of humor to blunt your remarks.
Jabs do sour relationships with people who aren't open to being spoken to in that way. Your previous comment about people becoming "too sensitive" makes it sound like some of your relationships may have soured in that way (speculation, I don't know your life; if you deny it, I'll believe you). Being tactful means feeling out the vibe, jabbing at people who appreciate it, and taking another tact with people who don't.
The world isn't dualistic. There are more kinds of people and more ways of interacting than are dreamt of in your philosophy. If there are people you don't get along with and don't want to be friends with, that's fine, live your best life. It's the same way for me, and GP said the same as well. But understand that's a choice you've made because it's right for you, not something objective or universal, and try not to judge others for making a different choice.
Eh I enjoy a constant back and forth, makes me feel at home and nothing is left unsaid. I know at least some of my friends I’ve known for decades would come very close to giving their life for me as would I. You sound like someone that has had a lifetime of acquaintances.
Who needs a "back and forth" when you can just say what you mean. I give my male friends big, long hugs and tell them I love them. If there's a problem, I talk to them about it. If I fuck up, I sincerely apologize.
Not that you can't do all that AND give each other some shit. But if you aren't doing all that I suggest giving it a shot.
1. Men are socialized to only be emotive in aggressive or masculine ways. Expressing vulnerability is met with mockery until you learn to stop doing it.
2. Sometimes people don't know how to communicate in a way that's effective without being tactless. Sometimes they think such communication isn't possible, expressed in cliches like "truth hurts", "I'm just showing you tough love" or "you need to grow a thicker skin." (Sometimes this works, but in my experience it's actually a lot easier to communicate if you don't express yourself in a way that's personal and insulting, it distracts from what you actually want to discuss. My policy for expressing uncomfortable criticism is, "speak plainly and clearly, drop the superlatives, and get it done sooner than later.")
> 1. Men are socialized to only be emotive in aggressive or masculine ways.
Some men, absolutely. Most men? Maybe. But I removed those kinds of people from my life years ago. The few men I involuntarily socialize with are coworkers, mostly programmers, and they tend to be on the less macho side generally, thank god.
I removed the emotive kind. I’m not comfortable around them and I find them to be heavily involved with their identity and defining themselves and less about building things and going places. These are obviously broad strokes but anecdotally they have generally held true.
That's total projection I'm afraid. I think you're assuming that, if I have an experience in any way dissimilar, I must not have friends? I'm just guessing because this is a non sequitur. Thankfully, that's not the case.
To be clear, it's exceedingly rare that I've had to kick people out of my life. And if you say that you and your friends engage in mutual banter, then I believe it. I've enjoyed some banter in my time.
It's not clear to me if you're saying there's a pattern in your life of friends becoming "too sensitive," but if there is, I do think that's something to interrogate.
> you become too sensitive to be able to be really good friends with men
You're projecting that "you" out there.
Can you contain multitudes that would allow you to maintain strong friendships with many different people?
I've got bros to drink beer and talk shit with, as well as bros to call when I've been dumped. And women to do the both with as well (more often found in the same woman, unlike my bros who are more fixed people)
