Tell HN: My Webcam works in Manjaro, not Windows 11

throwaway1194 · 2024-08-08T14:58:37 1723129117

Linux handles USB devices a lot better than other systems, it also has built-in drivers for pretty much every hardware out there. I'm not surprised.

IronWolve · 2024-08-06T21:34:02 1722980042

Maybe fn-f10 or app perms, enable camera perms so all apps can access camera.

999900000999 · 2024-08-06T22:30:40 1722983440

I tried this for about an hour. I got to a point where I assumed it's a hardware defect. The only situations where I really need a camera would be an interview.

I guess later Asus might release updated drivers though... It's possible they just pre-install them on the OEM SDD( I swapped in my 4TB SSD) and don't have them on Windows update yet.

brudgers · 2024-08-07T02:20:47 1722997247

If your webcam requires drivers, there’s a nontrivial likelihood the problem is the webcam. Typically webcams have been plug and play for quite some time. And software bundled with most (but not all) webcams is typically sludgeware.

Based on your description, it doesnt sound like a clean install of windows. So that’s a whole nother vector of broken system components.

My advice is clean install Windows, plug the webcam in, and see what happens. Good luck.

999900000999 · 2024-08-07T14:18:48 1723040328

I did clean install Windows. I initially tried to just move and install. The built in Web cam isn't working.

I assumed a hardware defect, but it's fine on Manjaro. No secure boot for me though...

brudgers · 2024-08-07T18:00:38 1723053638

Windows 11 without secure boot might be what is making your life interesting. Might not be of course.

Either way, I’d not call it a clean install. But that’s me.

999900000999 · 2024-08-07T19:41:09 1723059669

I deleted all the old partitions and created a new one to install Windows 11 on. Unless I literally buy a new SSD you can't get much cleaner.

I only disabled Secureboot when I needed to install Manjaro. Anyway, it's working for my needs.

efilife · 2024-08-07T21:47:19 1723067239

What's sludgeware? I only found a pokemon of this name

fuzzfactor · 2024-08-06T20:55:00 1722977700

Sounds pretty frustrating for a new PC, you would think there would be W11 webcam drivers already in place by ASUS.

With older webcams built-in or not that do need drivers, I've had good luck going back as far as Vista drivers and manually "installing" the INF, the drivers load but the W1x Camera app still fails. Using the Ispy cam software or VLC works good though.

Just had good luck adding Mint 22 to a SSD already having W11 24H2, using a previously prepared 16GB partition following after the Windows volume.

I had already used Diskpart in CMD when booted to Recovery (or Install) media, to assign a volume letter to the ESP partition, so I could robocopy the original (Windows-only at this point) EFI folder to a backup location.

The 16GB was partitioned by Windows but not formatted by Windows, it was confirmed totally zeroed before starting the Mint install and directing the "advanced" option to format as EXTx and use that existing final partition alone as / (root).

The Linux installer then correctly created the EFI\ubuntu folder to exist alongside the unchanged EFI\Microsoft folder. Automatically included a bootentry to the existing Windows install onto the Grub boot menu, of which the main boot configuration files and kernels actually are stored within the EXT filesystem and are only "referenced" from the EFI\ubuntu folder.[0]

The only true Windows-breaking change is a nothingburger, the fully-expected replacement of the previous EFI\boot\bootx64.efi file (which was a Windows-specific version when first-written to the folder, targeting EFI\Microsoft and the boot files contained therein) with a Linux-specific EFI\boot\bootx64.efi file of the same name, replacing it in the same folder. The newly-written EFI\boot\bootx64.efi (and its associates) are Linux-specific and target the EFI\ubuntu folder, which now contains a boot menu giving you a choice between Linux and Windows each time you restart, with Linux being the new default OS. This is the next point where an essential backup of the evolving EFI folder needs to be made, this time containing the now Linux-specific EFI\boot (with its new bootx64.efi and associates) as well as the new EFI\ubuntu folder along with the still-unchanged EFI\Microsoft folder.

If a Mint installation was so broken that it failed to detect and add a bootmenu choice for the existing Windows volume, it would seem like so much of a disaster since Linux can still replace the (normally hidden) bootx64.efi file with its own and it could boot to Mint just fine but with no straightforward way to boot Windows any more. This is what people are really afraid of.

In that case you would need to boot to the same Recovery media you used to access and back up the EFI folders, and simply overwrite (the Linux-specific) EFI\boot\bootx64.efi using the functional Windows-specific bootx64.efi backup made originally before subjecting it to wizardly manipulation. After that UEFI should smoothly act just like the regular Windows machine it was before, with no sign of Linux even though a perfectly viable Mint install is still present on the EXT volume and the EFI\ubuntu folder remains in position ready to spring into action if needed.

The EFI\Microsoft folder remains unchanged by design, and ideally the EFI\ubuntu folder boots not only Linux, but also put the existing Windows on the Linux bootmenu itself. Either way with fully functional EFI OS startup folders like these in position, if desired (or if necessary) the firmware itself can be made to enter either the EFI\Microsoft or the EFI\ubuntu folder directly with higher priority than EFI\boot\. With a bit of UEFI configuration.

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[0] I really prefer it when the kernels and fully-formed main grub.cfg file is actually stored on the EFI partition like some distros have, which is more advanced when you think about it since it's FAT32 and you can then do file-handling and editing for Linux boot parameters, plus Linux kernel upgrades completely from Windows if you want to.

999900000999 · 2024-08-06T21:59:52 1722981592

In my case I think the Mint installer did something stupid to the Secureboot keys on my computer, and even with secure boot disabled, it's somehow still trying to read those keys ?

I don't particularly like Manjaro, but I do find it's the most up to date distro for the most part.

Dualboot continues to be a struggle( I would LOVE for more OEMs to start supporting dual SSDs on laptops), but it's worth it when I don't care to engage in the world of targeted advertising via Windows.

vednig · 2024-08-06T23:14:30 1722986070

Dual SSDs would be great.

More Storage

Two systems working irrespective of crashes(each able to handle it's own).

Unless world starts migrating to M1 like systems where memory and storage are integrated to processor, it would again become a dream.

999900000999 · 2024-08-07T23:22:06 1723072926

I think some of the thinkpads have 2 SSD.

Most new laptops have soldered in Ram, but I haven't seen any soldered in SSDs yet outside of Apple.

SSDs are wear parts, give it 3 or 4 years and these first gen M1 laptops will start turning into E-Waste.

vednig · 2024-08-06T22:39:59 1722983999

> The only true Windows-breaking change is a nothingburger, the fully-expected replacement of the previous EFI\boot\bootx64.efi file (which was a Windows-specific version when first-written to the folder, targeting EFI\Microsoft and the boot files contained therein) with a Linux-specific EFI\boot\bootx64.efi file of the same name, replacing it in the same folder. The newly-written EFI\boot\bootx64.efi (and its associates) are Linux-specific and target the EFI\ubuntu folder, which now contains a boot menu giving you a choice between Linux and Windows each time you restart, with Linux being the new default OS. This is the next point where an essential backup of the evolving EFI folder needs to be made, this time containing the now Linux-specific EFI\boot (with its new bootx64.efi and associates) as well as the new EFI\ubuntu folder along with the still-unchanged EFI\Microsoft folder.

idk but to me this seems like a horror story, much scary than any existing horror movies.

fuzzfactor · 2024-08-06T22:55:38 1722984938

The real horror show is the way nobody is encouraged whatsoever to back up their EFI folder to begin with, ever.

This type of recovery from backup by copying a single file is not exactly a one-step process, but much better than if there is no backup nor experience with the recovery process.

It is kind of a switcheroo having the bootx64.efi replacement process be hidden by the (various) install wizard "routines", but the design of UEFI was intended to be opaque in this area especially.

If for no other reason than to perpetrate more fear than there should be about multibooting.

999900000999 · 2024-08-07T00:06:07 1722989167

In general if you mess up your EFI you have to find some magic ( some install wizards will offer to repair your install or upgrade the OS).

To my knowledge there's no way to ever get Linux Mint / Ubuntu to work my computer. Something is bonked and I lack the knowledge to figure this out.

It's worth remembering when things go wrong, they go Wrong is a capital W. Normal people probably don't want to deal with this, which ultimately limits Linux adoption.

I even had the thought last night " If I just take this back and buy a MacBook everything will be easier." Half the promise of a Mac is someone else has already figured it out, and if things do get weird you can go to the Apple store.

I have unique needs though, I require a 4TB SSD for music, games, photos and LLM weights. When the 8TB drives come down in price I'll upgrade to that.

I'm at 1200$ for the laptop and 200$ for the 4TB SSD vs 3200$ for the cheapest MacBook with 4TB.

We do need to admit we're a very small niche. I definitely love Linux when I don't want to deal with liposuction gossip in my taskbar.

fuzzfactor · 2024-08-08T21:36:42 1723153002

Good to get your message.

>Normal people probably don't want to deal with this

Guilty as charged, I've rarely been accused of being mainstream anyway ;)

People should keep in mind, on a regular HDD or SSD if it just has a bunch of partitions but no boot files, it's acting no differently for storing folders & files whether the folders contain nothing but video MP4s on one partition, or an OS actually installed into folders on another partition.

Each of the partitions that do have a (different) OS properly installed, perhaps using different filesystems, can stand alone after booting, and can be booted from boot files located on completely separate media if desired. Not much differently than using a boot floppy to start W9x when the install was perfectly intact but only the boot files had become corrupt.

One of the simplest logical approaches is to have two HDDs, but only put one in the desktop at a time to install each OS completely independently. That's how I got started, for some reason I was trying to make it foolproof, just for me ;)

You can also make duplicate HDDs to stand by as backups in case of hardware failure, data corruption, or misconfiguration.

There's a great deal of confidence when you know you can slap in a known working HDD no differently than a proven replacement "hardware" component, and it does the one thing it is supposed to do.

It's a slippery slope, the next thing you know you end up with both HDDs in the same PC, and not wanting to touch the arcane but mysteriously functional boot files on each HDD, you instead use the BIOS to select which HDD you boot to upon startup. If you want something other than the default.

From that point with no further editing of either HDD, you also have the option of using a third bootable item instead containing only boot files itself, whenever you want. Floppies used to be big enough, CDs were a pain with no editing, but USB sticks do the trick now. This is where the "hello world" of multiboot configuration can be confined to, and if it turns out to be more confusing than expected (this is by design) it can actually be perfected at your own leisure in case a single session is not adequate.

If you're not careful you'll end up treating different partitions on the same SSD as if they were completely different SSDs, almost like it was logically intended ;)

And your boot files can be just about anywhere, even in more than one place at the same time, but you only utilize a single path each time like anyone else.

Ideally, after you're successfully using a USB stick containing all the boot files necessary to multiboot a particular partitioning structure, that would be the equivalent of what was needed in a dedicated boot partition on a single SSD to accomplish the same thing. Further, you could actually have an equivalent boot partition on each SSD that all do the same thing, whichever one happens to be the active boot device at the time. You've got to pick a preferred device for the motherboard to boot to anyway if it's not the exact one the UEFI is defaulting to.

With UEFI I sometimes use an approach where I have two FAT32 volumes, one at the beginning of the SSD and the other at the end. The first one is the factory ESP volume whose contents don't need to change if all you want is Windows. The second FAT volume contains a slightly different EFI folder that can multiboot to the same Windows as well as the Linux install. Change the GUID of the original ESP partition into "Basic" instead of ESP, then rename its EFI folder to something like EFIorig. After formatting the second FAT32 volume, you assign it the proper ESP GUID then first populate with an EFI folder using Windows' bcdboot.exe. A following proper Linux install into an existing available partition will add the Linux boot option to the new Windows EFI folder on the second FAT volume. Leaving the original (but renamed) EFI folder untouched in the first FAT partition. By selective renaming you only have one folder actually named "EFI" at any one time, and you may or may not need to assign corresponding ESP GUIDs depending on which FAT volume you want UEFI to proceed with. Lots of UEFI firmware doesn't need an ESP GUID for guidance, or even a GPT layout, the good stuff can access all FAT volumes on either GPT or MBR layout, locate the first valid EFI folder on one of them and go forward from there.

For Secureboot I like the distros that rely only on Microsoft-signed keys that are expected to be built in to each motherboard at all times, I do not want to do anything that would mess with the mainstream Windows machine keys, or require Linux keys to be installed into the firmware before it will boot Linux. For those distros I just disable the false sense of secure booting when using them, fondly remembering that Microsoft Secure Boot was originally possible to be toggled in UEFI under the nomenclature of "Windows 8 Feature".

Like all of the other Windows 8.0 "features" that people everywhere loved so much more than Windows 7 could ever achieve ;)

999900000999 · 2024-08-09T17:57:03 1723226223

I'm not too worried about some weird exploit that's actually prevented by Secureboot.

It feels like something Microsoft pushed to scare people away from alternate OSes.

At least now , most of the time I'm on my laptop, so having 2 or 3 hard drives with different OSes isn't something I can really do.

Overall I'm very grateful I found Ubuntu 15 years ago, I was building a PC and didn't want to buy a Windows license. I credit it with much of my great career....

vednig · 2024-08-06T23:08:04 1722985684

People are usually careless when it comes about the real deal.

Hardware companies like Asus could also provide a hard switch to reset efi and drivers to default in similar scenarios, they can simply hardcode a read-only small memory with high compression.

Hence there are projects like libreboot and coreboot.