Ask HN: Do You Have a Copy of IBM "Logo: Programming with Turtle Graphics"?

[susam]

Hello HN! First a quick background of what I am trying to search.

In 1983, Logo Computer Systems, Inc. (LCSI) published two popular versions of Logo. One was meant to be run on Atari systems and the other was meant to be run on IBM PCs.

The manuals and documentation for the Atari LCSI Logo are very well archived on the world wide web. The two I am particularly interested in are here:

A) Atari Logo Reference Manual: https://atariwiki.org/wiki/attach/Logo/Atari%20LOGO%20Reference%20Manual.pdf

B) Atari Logo Introduction to Programming Through Turtle Graphics: https://atariwiki.org/wiki/attach/Logo/Atari%20LOGO%20Introduction%20To%20Programing%20Through%20Turtle%20Graphics%20%281-sided%29.pdf

On page 3 of the first document (9th page in the PDF), there is a reference to the second document:

> First time Logo users should start with the companion manual Introduction to Programming Through Turtle Graphics.

However, sadly, the manuals for IBM LCSI Logo does not seem to be easily available. I found the following:

C) IBM Personal Computer Logo Reference: https://archive.org/download/ibm_logo_manual/ibm_logo_manual.pdf

It too has a reference to an introductory documentation:

> The purpose of the IBM Personal Computer Logo Reference is to give you a thorough understanding of the many features of Logo by expanding the information contained in Logo: Programming with Turtle Graphics, which comes with IBM Personal Computer Logo.

However, I have not been able to find a copy of this document anywhere. Do you know any place I can get hold of a copy of the document titled "Logo: Programming with Turtle Graphics" that is meant to be used with IBM/LCSI PC Logo?

[atrettel]

The document does appear to exist in several libraries according to WorldCat [1], though the list is quite small. This entry explicitly lists the publisher as "International Business Machines Corp., Boca Raton, Fla., 1983", so it appears to be what you are looking for.

The Library of Congress does not appear to have a copy in the main catalog, but that does not eliminate them having a copy in the technical reports department, though finding it through the technical reports department will be impossible without report numbers or other identifying information.

If you are looking to buy a copy, you may be in luck. A search for the title in AbeBooks [2] pulls up one seller (Sleepy Hollow Books, Huntington, VT, U.S.A.) for 33 USD plus shipping. It is impossible to tell if this is a copy of the IBM or Atari edition, though. You may want to contact the seller, which is possible on AbeBooks.

Good luck with your search!

[1] https://search.worldcat.org/title/10330138

[2] https://www.abebooks.com/

[susam]

Since the links in the "Ask HN" text are not clickable, here are the links in clickable form:

A) Atari Logo Reference Manual: https://atariwiki.org/wiki/attach/Logo/Atari%20LOGO%20Refere...

B) Atari Logo Introduction to Programming Through Turtle Graphics: https://atariwiki.org/wiki/attach/Logo/Atari%20LOGO%20Introd...

C) IBM Personal Computer Logo Reference: https://archive.org/download/ibm_logo_manual/ibm_logo_manual...

[susam → susam]

Thanks to @rmini, we now have:

D) IBM Logo Programming With Turtle Graphics: https://archive.org/download/logo-programming-with-turtle-gr...

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40694386 for details.

Also, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40699153 for a discussion on this newly archived document.

[rmini]

I have a copy of Logo: Programming with Turtle Graphics that came with Logo for the IBM PC by LCSI. I can scan it tomorrow.

[rmini → rmini]

I have uploaded a scanned PDF to archive.org: https://archive.org/details/logo-programming-with-turtle-gra...

[susam → rmini]

Wow! Thank you, rmini! Your generosity in taking the time to scan and upload the manual is incredible. You have truly made my day!

---

By the way, I took a quick look at all the scanned pages and I noticed a couple of duplicate pages.

* Page 3-18 is followed by pages 4-11 to 4-14 which are followed by 4-1 to 4-14. Therefore pages 4-11 to 4-14 are present twice.

* Page 8-8 is followed by pages 9-3 to 9-4 which are followed by pages 9-1 to 9-10. Therefore pages 9-3 to 9-4 are present twice.

I just wanted to bring this to your attention. This is no problem though since no page is missing. I was able to remove the duplicate pages using this Ghostscript command:

  gs -dSAFER -dBATCH -dNOPAUSE -sDEVICE=pdfwrite -sOUTPUTFILE=out.pdf -dFirstPage=1 -dLastPage=68 in.pdf -dFirstPage=73 -dLastPage=120 in.pdf -dFirstPage=123 -dLastPage=246 in.pdf

This removed the 6 duplicate pages thereby reducing the number of pages from 246 to 240. The size of the PDF reduced too from 93615247 bytes to 92671554 bytes.

I really appreciate your effort in scanning the manual! Your help with my question has been fantastic! Thank you!

[rmini → susam]

Thanks for letting me know about the duplicates, my scanner's ADF was struggling a little bit with the perforated pages. You're quite welcome, I'm happy it was a help. Logo was also one of my first languages and I've got a collection of implementations for most of my retrocomputing collection.

[AstroJetson → rmini]

Wow, any chance you have TLC Logo? It was from The LISP Company. My manual is from 1983. It was a combination of Logo and Lisp and was super powerful on my CP/M machine (I had a Zorba portable and an Xerox 820) Thanks!

[rmini → AstroJetson]

I'm afraid not, I've heard of it but I haven't seen it in my travels. I'm still looking for a CP/M-80 Logo (or DR Logo for DEC Rainbow).

[AstroJetson → rmini]

Thanks, I'll continue my search and I'll add yours to the list!

[sitkack → rmini]

This warms my heart.

[sitkack → rmini]

Please send to archive.org

[jcmeyrignac]

In France, there is one that seems to match your needs: https://www.leboncoin.fr/ad/ordinateurs/2379851136 but it's quite expensive!

[pleasejustdont]

I know this is not what you are looking for, but I just wanted to take advantage of your post to remind the HN crowd of the fact that the magnificent book Turtle Geometry: The Computer as a Medium for Exploring Mathematics is available in Open Access at : https://direct.mit.edu/books/oa-monograph/4663/Turtle-Geomet... . One of the co-author is no less than Harold Abelson, who is also a co-author of the (in)famous SICP.

If you are looking for a book a little less hardcore than the previous recommendation, check out Visual Modeling With Logo: A Structured Approach to Seeing by James Clayson.

[dibbsonline]

I had logo on my ti-99/4a. https://archive.org/details/tibook_ti-logo

[5-]

i've learned programming with microworlds pro logo, a later product by lcsi.

thank you for the atari documents! i'm pleased to see many of the advanced concepts from microworlds (most notably multiple turtles, but also shapes were so much fun!) already there in this early version.

lcsi's current implementation is a free, web version at https://lynxcoding.club/

[jumpkick]

I have two Commodore 64 Logo books, sadly none for IBM.