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macOS Sequoia Preview (apple.com)
338 points by davidbarker 14 days ago | hide | past | favorite | 345 comments



I never thought I’d see the day macOS would get tiling window management. Wonder how it will interact with Stage Manager if at all.


I never really understood the appeal of tiling window managers. I've gotten used to having overlapping windows with appropriate parts peek out out behind others. e.g. tail of a log behind an editor running a program, and I can bring it to the foreground to see older lines and/or scroll. To do the same with a tiling manager, I would zoom the logging pane. I suppose I just prefer less layout changes. Same for Slack, I have just enough peeping out to know there's some messages but I can't see the message text so I can ignore them until I'm ready.

Are there situations that make more sense to use a tiling manager like on larger (where all the tiles are usable) or smaller screens (where full expansion makes sense)?


For me it was a couple of X11 features not often found on mac or windows that made me think about the desktop in a desktop environment and what I want out of my window manager. My timeline sort of goes as follows.

1. focus follows mouse, the window you are pointing at gets the focus. This feels very strange at first. but pulls a surprising amount of friction out of working with multiple apps. However you have to pair this with.

2. don't raise on focus. this let you work on a lower window. to raise you click on a specific part of the window, usually the title bar. if you don't have this focus follows mouse is terrible. this lets you have the main window(usually the documentation or reference) open on top while you type away on the lower window.

3. At this point I heard of i3 and it made perfect sense to me. I have never said "boy I sure am glad this window is half covered up" I ether want one app full screen, two apps side by side(reference and work) or many small apps(terminals). why not just have the window manager enforce this instead of me fiddling with windows. these days I use mainly use spectrwm because it fills that perfect middle ground between too sparse(dwm) and too featured(i3).

That said, for my day to day operations(I sys-admin, so lots of terminals) it works great. however there are many apps that do not play well. for example, I recently set up a linux box for steam games and steam was not happy with i3(all menus were separate windows) this is probably fixable but I just went with a normal wm. And when I do actual work on it I am reminded why I like tiling wm's as I find myself shuffling windows all the time.

Closing thoughts, an example of a tiling wm internal to an app is blender, even before I started using tiling wm's I thought blender had a very good ui for getting work done, much better than the mdi type apps that were common at the time. so just imagine your whole desktop working that way. And tabs, really tabbed interfaces should be a function of your window manager not the app, but that ship has sailed and I don't think there is any way to fix it now.


I generally agree with you. I use my Mac with most of the windows overlapped most of the time. But occasionally I need them side-by-side to do some work. Typically referencing documents or code. Fortunately the introduction of this looks to just be an optional feature rather than a dictated "way things are".

An overlapped/stacked interface is fine a lot of the time, but the flexibility is important.

What really drives me crazy is the 100% tiled-interface. I feel like something important is just below the tiles, but I can't see it.


You can solve that easily with the free rectangle app today.

I love the Rectangle app. The problem is that the average Mac user has no idea this exists at all.

So when Joe Windows considers switching over to Mac, they see that there's no equivalent to the Windows snapping feature that's been in their OS since Windows 7, and they might think macOS is inferior.

I personally don't need this feature from Apple but I think they needed to add it for their own business needs.


The last time I tried Rectangle it didn't have any customization, just those predefined areas and nothing else. I really like how window management is done in KDE Plasma.

If you get the paid version then customization is an option, just FYI. Not sure when this was introduced but it’s been working well for me.

BetterTouchTool is not free but has the customization you seek. I’ve used it for about a decade now

To add more clarity here in case it's helpful: If you open the Rectangle app's settings menu and open the last tab (looks like a gear), you can play around with the "Gaps between windows" setting.

I have this set to 15px, so when I drag my app windows around, they snap to a grid with 15px spaces between the windows. Dunno why I find it so satisfying, but it really scratches an itch in my brain.


I have Rectangle installed and the only feature I use is dragging a window to the left or right edge to use half the screen. I don't even know if that's from Rectangle or macOS. The other thing I do is double-click edges to expand to edge of screen, which I assume is macOS.

It had let unable shortcuts to snap windows into various tile layout type configurations

Yes, I actually use Rectangle on both my work and personal laptops.

You can always run apps full screen. Then it's possible to have them side by side.

I'm thoroughly confused. How can a full screen program allow for a side by side?

Full screen is a mode that takes away the ability to move windows, and removes their chrome. You can have two windows in this mode, and they will just take up the whole screen between them.

I get a bunch of ui issues doing full screen, and though I use Magnet for snapping, I want something that stays snapped. Looks like this will do it.


The maximize button has an option to go into a split screen mode where you get two "half full" screens (i.e. side by side but still hide the menu bar, window chrome).

I wish there was a keyboard shortcut to run apps full screen

I used to use Slate[0] to manage my windows but have since switched to Raycast since it was a more enjoyable experience.

I have a 49" ultrawide so it's super useful to have precise control over where a window goes. I also use 3 desktops (as Apple calls them) and have different windows sizes depending on what I'm doing. Having overlapping windows would just be super annoying now!

[0] https://github.com/jigish/slate


With tiling managers you can do all you just listed + quick snapping. Who would say no to that?


The WM being tiling-dominant doesn’t really make sense if one only ever tiles the odd window every now and then. In that situation it makes more sense to use a floating-dominant WM with light tiling features (like that of Windows, most major Linux DEs, and now macOS).

I don't know how one can't see the appeal. Once I installed Rectangle on macOS I can quickly put windows side-by-side with a couple of keystrokes, and change which windows I want side-by-side extremely quickly

Fiddling with the mouse to resize windows manually or having windows overlapping and covering up information on each other is not really a great way to interface with them. Maybe it's helpful to locate the windows and bring them into focus, but once they're in focus and in use, I want to be maximizing their screen real estate and making sure they're 100% readable.

And, really, it's something the OS should have had at the very least as an optional feature for over a decade now. Windows introduced this feature in Windows 7. It's been a sore spot of a missing feature and it's especially detracting for the Windows users that Apple wants to have switch over to the Mac platform.


3x 27" monitors provides lots of space for multiple usable windows it helps to also be able to switch workspaces per monitor so you switch monitors with a hotkey rather than switching windows.

Compared to peek and switch it provides more usable space since windows can be maximized without leaving space for another window to peek out, less manual arrangement since Windows need not be carefully arranged. Also I normally switch because I want to do another task or in resource to a notification.

That said however we choose to analyze it it's in part subjective matter of taste. There is no singular correct answer.


I have a 55” 4k television that wasn’t being used, and as a joke plugged it into my Mac Mini, and with a tiling window manager it’s functionally 4 decent sized FHD monitors at once. I have left it plugged in much longer than I thought I would, it’s really much more functional than I’d imagined. I still probably prefer a regular 1440p display, for most tasks.

Same, except on purpose and it’s still plugged in.

I used 40 inch screens for many years. Tiling is must have for big screens and it works better than multiple screens combined togather

I have a 43" monitor and I don't tile my windows because the corners are so far away. I tend to make a 'fat cross' of overlapped windows that don't really use the corner areas.

43 inch is just 4 21.5inch monitors put together, you can look 1 tile at a time and ignore the rest. Literally just treat it as 4 screens and don't forget to move your head.

I do the same. It’s a hierarchical steppe like system. Maybe if we gave it a name, people would develop to this target.

Agreed. Messy overlap + an app called HazeOver where you can dim apps out of focus is the best approach to this.

FINALLY! I really didn’t it to come to Mac, ever.

Now so just need a clipboard history manager, a way to make cmd+tab behave like Windows alt+tab, a way to mute the mic in the status bar, and a different setting for the trackpad/mouse wheel direction, and I won’t need to install random apps for basic features anymore.


don't forget per-app volume control, linear scroll wheel speed, some reasonable way to manage menu bar icons and ensure all can actually be accesses and used, a way to prevent the system from going to sleep (the built-in `caffeinate` command hasn't worked for years!), and searching through open windows by typing!


> reasonable way to manage menu bar icons

I believe the new control center API is intended to push seldom used icons into the control center

> searching through open windows by typing

The new Siri is context aware once the developers include their data through new APIs. The Microsoft version which was snooping through private browsing, secure apps, and logging passwords in open databases was not the right way to go.


> I believe the new control center API is intended to push seldom used icons into the control center

More than just cleaning the menu bar (I don't care about that), I want a guarantee that I can see and click on every menu bar icon somewhere. Whether that's the present vision or not, this sounds like a clear step in the right direction!

While I have lots of gripes about macOS and I understand that probably some of them are things Apple will just never go for, it does almost seem like Apple is giving some neglected desktop fundamentals much needed improvements. Fixing linear mouse movement on the last major release was nice, as is the new window snapping thing.

> > searching through open windows by typing

> The new Siri is context aware once the developers include their data through new APIs. The Microsoft version which was snooping through private browsing, secure apps, and logging passwords in open databases was not the right way to go.

I don't want any kind of internet-connected AI assistant on the desktop at all. I just want the ability to task switch efficiently by fuzzy filtering on basic stuff like window titles and descriptions like can be done easily with Plasma and GNOME built-ins. (On Windows, PowerToys can do it but I don't love that interface and even though it's an MS thing I don't quite think it counts as built-in, either.) I guess many people do rely on proprietary screenreaders but that seems unfortunate tbf.

Filtering windows based on their contents could maybe be a little bit cool but I think it'd probably mostly get in the way, even if there were an app I trusted doing the searching with appropriately limited APIs. I wouldn't readily trust a proprietary, internet-connected service to do that kind of searching, though— neither from Apple nor from Microsoft. If such a feature required me to enable Siri I wouldn't even be interested in trying it.


I use caffeinate all the time. What's wrong with it?

When sleep is supposedly disabled by caffeinate, closing the lid still puts my laptop to sleep. It's been like that as since I first tried it, several years ago.

But your comment inspired me to Google anew and... I guess it was always intended to only kind of disable sleep?


Clipboard history manager: Paste App (https://pasteapp.io - freemium) or Raycast

Cmd+Tab: AltTab (https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app/)

Different setting for the trackpad/mouse wheel: Mac Mouse Fix (https://macmousefix.com) or LinearMouse (https://linearmouse.app/) or Mos (https://mos.caldis.me/)


Oh man, I couldn't live without Alfred's clipboard manager [paid] feature. I started using Alfred eons ago, bought their Powerpack, and haven't looked back since. The ability to resurface text or images I copied up to 3 months ago has saved my bacon too many times to remember.

Nailed it. It's honestly criminal and something I consider UX terrorism the way macOS lacks this basic functionality when even something like ChromeOS ships these by default. Wonderful hardware, but boy is the OS rough 20+ years later.

You still haven't seen that day, have you? macOS still offers only a floating window manager, now with some window snapping capabilities. But there is no mode or window manager built into macOS where new windows are arranged in tiles spanning the whole screen by default.

Exactly, by the description of it on the announcement, this is not "tiling window management" as we're used in Linux, this is just "Window Snaping" that been available on Windows and Linux for what, a decade now?

I really hope there is a "automatic tiling" option, otherwise this is just mouse support for the current "Move Window"/"Tile Window" options already available on the OS (and easily bindable via custom shortcuts).


When did “Linux” settle on a single window manager? There have been 3rd-party solutions for Mac for years, I don’t understand what’s different about that versus Linux, which comes with nothing by default, not even a graphical interface.

Most desktop Linux distros come with one of the big DEs like Gnome or KDE by default. And those have had Window snapping since shortly after MS demoed it for Windows 7. How is this different from Mac OS? It's integrated into the DE, you don't need to install anything extra and it works like you'd expect. On Mac the third party options never felt quite native.

I get what you are saying, but for me nothing on Linux feels nativ. I'm still amazed that Apple has people who can announce window snapping and sound absolutely sincere when claiming that's a revolutionary new feature in the world. So.. I really get where you are coming from

Who claims it’s a revolutionary new feature?

While some tiling window managers do support mixing in special floating windows (often used for modal dialogs, for example), the defining characteristic of a tiling window manager is that all windows are tiles by default; tiling is the rule rather than the exception.

There are floating window managers with window snapping on the free Unices, of course. But none of those claims to be a tiling window manager and nobody confuses them with such.


Available on windows since Windows 7, 14 years ago

I use BetterSnapTool for ages and love it. Wondering if this will be good enough to replace it natively.


This was exactly what I was thinking as well. Let's see!


Now if they only would allow me to take the focused window to the next workspace without using the mouse.


There's a new app on the block that allows this using virtual workspaces. https://github.com/nikitabobko/AeroSpace

I use Moom for basic keyboard-based window management. Great for maximizing windows and quickly resizing them


Yes! I've been using Moom for I think over a decade now. Cannot recommend it highly enough.


the tiling is very basic though. reminds me of windows. i3/sway is superior, especially once you get it customized to your workflow.


Really basic tiling would be a vast improvement over the pathetic current built-in window management.


I know it’s simple but I am so pleased with this. Now if they fixed the mouse acceleration curve and the scaling issue for monitors, I’d be at peace.


It's the only OS that offers a good acceleration curve for my trackballs, been dying with the lack of configuration for the curve under wayland :(


Possible good news: recent versions of libinput support completely custom acceleration curves! Though I don't know if any wayland compositors expose configuration options for it yet.

https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/pointer-...


What's the scaling issue?


Not GP, but macOS doesn't have fractional scaling, which means that running at non-integer scales is inefficient. For example:

A 3840x2160 monitor run at 1x means a framebuffer of 3840x2160.

At 2x, the effective resolution is 1920x1080, and this also uses a framebuffer of 3840x2160.

At 1.5x, the effective resolution is 2560x1440. This is implemented by rendering at 4x (5160x2880) and then downscaling that.

At 1.25x, the effective resolution is 3072x1728. This is also implemented by rendering at 4x (6144x3456) and downscaling that.

The difference between all of these is quite noticeable.

Edit: Apparently Apple has been shipping its laptops with non-integer scaling for a while, which is interesting.


Non-integer scaling is essentially impossible to do well unless you give up and turn all your UI design into web pages. Otherwise you get pixel cracks and other issues from finding all the places things are/aren't rounded properly.

The laptop displays work by scaling down 2x/3x too.


Windows does it just fine.

WinUI essentially webpage

I don't even mean the modern stuff. Even fairly old Windows apps can do fractional scaling just fine. WPF does it without a hitch, and it dates back to 2006. Even many WinForms apps can do it, and then of course Qt etc.

But even disregarding all that - if such scaling can be done without problems with webpages, then clearly there's no technical impediment to doing the same elsewhere. It's not like HTML is magic.


The worst part is that third party solutions (eg BetterDisplay) work. So Apple could find this if they wanted with ease. No clue why they’re so stubborn on it

Are you sure it works in a different way? I always thought Betterdisplay still showed you fractional scaling by downscaling from a much higher resolution. Well, I'd say I can still see the blurriness in the display when I pick a custom high dpi resolutnion from the list.


2 days ago I complained that Apple has stalled when it came to window management. I wonder if Tim Cook is reading HN ;)


He might have someone (or something) who reads and summarizes HN, so he can keep a finger on the pulse.

I hope it supports thirds and not just 50/50 layouts.


I think that’ll require the crackpot team that made Calculator on iPad possible.


To be fair the new calculator app with its magic math writing is pretty dang cool.


Nebo has had essentially that for years, OneNote too.


No mention of Stage Manager at all if I'm correct? Seems like Apple is quietly abandoning that path.


I wonder if they made horizontal 50/50 split possible. It is so freaking odd they decided to implement vertical 50/50, but flipping the variables and making a horizontal 50/50 is a no-no. Like no-one at Apple ever used a portrait orientation monitor.

It's great for those who want it, but I really hope it can be turned off just as with most of their recent UI additions, such as Stage Manager.


It's opt-in.

Since it's not available on iPadOS, I think the answer is.. it wont?

Been a happy Magnet user for long time! Nothing remarkable in this OS that hasn't been seen yet elsewhere. No innovation, only #MeToo features.

It took them a decade to release a "Send Later" feature? How's that for innovation? Snobs!


I'm honestly surprised and disappointed that all they appear to have done is Sherlock Rectangle.

Stage Manager was the most interesting and useful thing to happen to window management in over a decade, and I was really hoping we'd see Apple do more with it. Its dynamic nature (windows don't always live in just a single context!) solved a lot of problems inherent in Spaces, and yet there's still plenty of room to build on its foundation.

I was hoping we'd at least see the window snapping behavior ported over from iPadOS. It's a really well-thought-out way to simplify window resizing and overlapping, and it would go a long way on MacOS (perhaps with a toggle in Control Center for those edge cases where you actually want pixel precision). Maybe in MacOS 16...


I disabled Stage Manager after trying it out for a week or so. How the hell does that thing make any sense? Really, this is a legit question. How is that thing useful?


The use case for myself is when I have to focus on a specific task/project and I have three or four applications I need to alternate between. It’s quite useful for that. Once the task is completed, I turn it off.

Thanks! If you don't mind me asking, how does it help? What's the workflow with it, that couldn't be achieved without it?

> Stage Manager was the most interesting and useful thing to happen to window management in over a decade

… really? I’ve tried to use it a few times but it’s just… not good. Not very intuitive, full of idiosyncrasies, and it doesn’t solve the basic "I want to snap 2 windows side by side" problem. Maybe it’s more interesting on iPad?

I’m glad they finally bring window snapping to Mac.


it's bloody terrible on the ipad too.

I tried it with my studio display for a day and it was like wrestling a raccoon all fucking day.


Yeah it looks like this will usurp Magnet for me, which I've used for years now.


The better question is why it took so long for Apple to copy Magnet.


Because Apple is pure Snobbery! Period! They'll never admit to be behind imagineers.

I've personally been infuriated by the absence of Send Later feature. I can't fathom that I could do it with a "stupid/inferior" Windows Phone that wasn't obscenely priced like an iPhone.

They lost their technological leadership since Steve Jobs. End of Story.


3-4 Apple Fans downvoted me... LOL Sorry if I hurt your feelings.

BTW I'm an iPhone13 owner and I still stand for what I said.


Rectangle and Magnet devs not happy


I still run f.lux even though macOS has native Night Shift. I run BetterDisplay even though I can change display settings natively. I run AppCleaner even though in theory I can uninstall an app by dragging it to the bin. I run Alfred even though Spotlight exists.

I bet I'm gonna keep Rectangle as well.


I installed Rectangle about 4 hours ago based on another thread! Tim Apple knows all.


Finally Windows and Linux fanatics will shut up.


TBH, we still need to see how it integrates with the keyboard.

Ever since I've been using a Mac since Nov. 2023 that's been one of the things that I've battled with, and I've assigned a heck tons of shortcuts to make that happen.


It's frustrating at best. On any tiling WM on Linux, I can hit Meta+<#> and be taken to that workspace.

On macOS, the moment I fullscreen an app, it's taken out of that flow. So for so many years, I've had my terminal full screen on workspace 2. Meta+2 it in my muscle memory for "go to terminal".


Macs aren't made for fancy people like yourself (any longer). No money in it, unfortunately.

Somehow, all the way up into the Snow Leopard days, they seemed like they still exposed enough of the goodies for the "fancy" folk.

Wouldn’t it be like everything else, default keyboard shortcuts that can be easily overridden? Personally I hope they go with rectangle’s CTRL+OPT just because it’s seared into my muscle memory now


Most of the splits have shortcuts. They're menu items, so you can customize what they end up being.

CWM is not tiling and yet it can be crazy fast.

Why the fanboyism? It's not a tournament. Let's embrace competition and enjoy that it brings the best out of each OS.


This isn't i3/sway

No they just switch from "Mac doesn't have X" to "Welcome to 20212 Mac"


My corp desktop is an iMac Pro (2018). For a long time, it was the best way to get a Retina-quality desktop without getting into VFX budgets. It was also in that weird period in Apple's product calendar when the one-and-done trash can was obsolete, but its replacement hadn't been released. Work usually issues whatever panels they can buy in bulk from overseas, but for a magical window, we could get a nice screen with no shenanigans by ordering an iMac Pro.

My heart dropped for a second when I saw Sequoia only supports iMacs from 2019, until I saw it supports iMac Pros from 2017. I wonder how much longer I have before Apple stops releasing updates, and corp IT decides the iMac Pro is now e-waste.

It's really unfortunate that they don't do Target Display Mode anymore. These iMacs have panels that are still top-of-the-line 6 years later. (A Studio Display is basically an iMac Pro with Apple Silicon in Target Display Mode.) I wonder if there will be a Linux distribution to convert these things into monitors when they go obsolete.


> top of the line panels

A few different people have figured out how to convert these panels into stand-alone displays. It's a pity that it would be impractical to make a small business out of this.

- https://ohmypizza.com/2023/04/converting-a-5k-imac-into-an-e... - https://mschmitt.org/blog/convert-5k-27-imac-external-displa...


Thanks for the tips!

Wild that a hobby project I've never heard of has a whole outfit in China supporting it: http://chiyakeji.com/

I wonder if I'll be able to expense one of those when/if Apple finally deprecates the iMac Pro on my desk.


I've done this and it's amazing-it's the only monitor that I can use for my workstation (Linux/Windows) and my laptop (macOS) because even the (relatively) cheap LG UltraFine monitors don't work with the Nvidia GPU on my workstation.

I've got so much perfectly-working e-waste from Apple. It's so sad. I'm on a Late 2014 Mac mini that's stuck on Monterey macOS 12 and a Late 2014 retina iMac that's stuck on Big Sur macOS 11(!!) An iPhone7 that's stuck on iOS15. The display on that iMac is still IMO second to none. These computers do everything I need, yet their software support is stuck back in time. And 3rd party developers are terrible about supporting previous version of macOS. They alway seem to assume you are running the latest and greatest, and deliberately remove support for earlier OSs.

Hell, I have an O.G. iPad 1 that still works perfectly as it did the day I bought it, but most of the built-in software no longer works, and the App Store is basically empty. What a sad state of affairs.


Your not stuck (the Mac's at least) https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/


I am using open core on several Apple devices from 2008-2010. A Metal capable GPU makes a huge difference in performance. After upgrading my 2010 iMac to a Firepro M4000, it runs the current version of macOS Sonoma better than the 2018-2019 MacBook airs do.

I have a 2012 Mac mini server running Monterey right now thanks to Open Core. Still getting security updates (for now at least). Too many reported issues with Ventura and Sonoma to bother trying them.

I have a 2012 Mac Mini, running Linux with a bunch of services on it. Works quite well as a server. Low power and silent.

The line seems to have been drawn at the T2 chip.

One thing I can tell you though is that Intel has EOL’ed the chip in the iMac Pro. Meaning no more security support for the chip.

So I’m not sure the iMac Pro will get the next update. Though possible Apple has found a way to mitigate any security issues.

This is the best article I found on the topic. Note also that once the iMac Pro is out of support, it’s os will still get security updates for two years past that.

So with this announcement today we are guaranteed security support until Oct 2027 or so.

I own an iMac Pro and was pleasantly surprised today. Had been concerned the Intel EOL might end things.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/07/with-macos-sonoma-in...


Unfortunately, I don't think our IT dept will support an old OS if a newer one is available; even if the old one gets security patches and the new one doesn't work on some machines.

I also really appreciated that magical window with my 2018 iMac Pro at work! Never going to be able to justify a Studio Display…

It's insane that it costs as much as an iMac, but it's also insane that it effectively _is_ an iMac (with nerfed software).

Not quite a perfect solution but you can use the iMac as an airplay display.

Apple is now imposing the same iOS obsolescence program to MacBook/iMac. That’s how you make easy money nowadays.

iPhone XR was released in 2018, and I got mine in 2019. It will still be supported by iOS 18, which is being released in 2024.

5-6 years of fully functioning hardware with official OS updates is much better than the Android phones I had before it.


Apple never advertised how long they would support updates, but recently published a 5 years policy [1]. It’s still bad since the device is well made and would easily outlast 5 years with battery replacement.

https://www.androidauthority.com/iphone-software-support-com...


A battery replacement after 3 years costs pennies, relative to its value

You shouldn't measure by the release date of the hardware, but by the last sale date of the hardware. In Apple's list of supported Macs, the "iMac Pro (2017)" is the oldest year. But that computer was sold until 2021! Makes Apple look more generous putting 2017 in that list instead of 2021!

One crucial difference is that with Android, lots of people are using those old phones with ancient Android versions, and so software tends to target them. So even if the phone no longer receives updates, the software on top can be up-to-date.

In the Apple ecosystem, app developers are much more aggressive about dropping support for older versions of iOS.


Being better doesn't even mean being good (6 is small), and it had no relation to the original point

Also you dates are wrong, measure from the last device sale, not the first


> Being better doesn't even mean being good (6 is small)

So far, it's 6 years (2018-2024), and probably it'll end at 7 years (assuming they drop its support next summer). That's the same number of years as Google and Samsung are currently supporting their flagship models, and it's many years more than e.g. my previous (unrootable) Huawei phone was supported. Compared to the competition, I'd say that number is good.

If we want to push up that number across all players in the market, then we need legislation as a forcing function. I'm all for that – especially legislation that would require manufacturers to allow easy rooting/jailbreaking when the official support ends so that third parties can provide unofficial support. (Like how you can install Linux on old MacBooks when they're not supported.)

> and it had no relation to the original point

I'm not sure how you interpreted the "iOS obsolescence program" then.

> Also you dates are wrong, measure from the last device sale, not the first

It's not wrong, it's a different measure.

If you choose to buy a 3 year old phone, you know that it will be officially supported for 3 less years, and should factor that into your (price)/(lifetime) calculation. I choose to only buy new electronics models (not necessarily the flagship) so that I can replace them less often, and then my measure is the relevant one.


> choose to buy a 3 year old phone, you know that it will be officially supported for 3 less years, and should factor that into your (price)/(lifetime) calculation. I

You don't know that since neither the period is known nor is its starting date. Also that's your own expectation, I don't buy that later customers should suffer more

> I'm not sure how you interpreted the "iOS obsolescence program" then

I interpret it as force-obsoleting well functioning devices via software limits. This interpretation does not depend on what Huawei is doing (by the way, another mistake in your comparison is that Apple sells premium devices and also has full control of both the software and hardware, which make it relatively easier to do better)

you don't need any legislation to stop justifying it with faulty comparisons


I wonder how the "seamlessly drag and drop files, photos, and videos between your iPhone and Mac" will work. Right now, if you just want to grab the raw files of your photos and videos and not deal with the Photos app, your best bet is Image Capture, a 20+ year old seemingly unmaintained program that seems to glitch out disturbingly frequently. I really hope they can introduce something that seamlessly lets you drag photos off your phone and into your filesystem, just in the Finder.


I frequently just airdrop stuff between my iphone and mac, that's the best thing coming from android, that and pasting text between devices, eg iban, passwords, etc.


AirDrop is great in theory, but in practice 80% of the time I try to send a photo to my partner using AirDrop, it simply fails to bring up a notification on her devices. In my experience, Apple often delivers well much of the time, but will allow mysterious bugs like this to pervade a feature for years without finding a fix despite much discussion in their customer forums. I wish they did a better job of fixing such problems.


I even have the same problem from me to me. My phone to my mac. Bluetooth and all that is on.


FWIW, I found LocalSend (https://localsend.org/) to be quite handy especially since it is a cross-platform solution.

There's also https://snapdrop.net which works in the browser

Snapdrop is fantastic. I have an app version installed on my android device so it'll appear in the share menu.

Yes this is so weird. This like photos sync just doesn't work fully for 10+ years, fundamental features that just works 60% of the time often resolving themselves after a few hours or days with no information given.

Very weird and very annoying. Especially since they are used by millions of people every hour.


80% of those 20% of the times it doesn't work, it's just because the receiver's phone either doesn't have Bluetooth turned on, or it just isn't unlocked.


And the remaining 20%… total mystery.

95% is pretty good when I'm Airdropping, "dumb shit I did last night".

I want the source list to be the Finder on my Mac, not "All Photos" on the iPhone. I frequently have 2000+ photos to bring over at once; I hate dragging through all of them to select them, with one mis-touch resetting the selection. I've also found AirDrop to be very unreliable at that scale (does it even work? I've never used it for more than ~a dozen items), and want reliable file transfer functionality that can pick up where it left off if it gets interrupted.


Use the MacOS Image Capture app (built in)

I use KDE Connect to do the same thing across Android, Mac and Windows: https://kdeconnect.kde.org/

Well worth checking out.


> Made for people like you.

I'm stealing this marketing line


Right? Airdrop "just works" and so does copy paste between devices.

If this is a better AirDrop I'm all here for it. AirDrop was already leaps and bounds better than email my android phone to my PC.


You can rsync over ssh from and to Android devices, if you install Termux (Linux in an app).

And SolidExplorer is a good app to transfer data from/to Android.

I'm a long time Mac user, but I really dislike Apple's walled garden on the iPhone and thus switched to Android some years ago.


Airdrop just about never works for me. It’s slow to connect if it connects at all. And this is between my own devices connected to the same iCloud account.

It's already been working for quite some time: shared clipboard on iOS and macOS has supported photos and videos since more than 2 years ago. I'd expect drag-and-drop works the same way.


Like I mentioned in another comment, I've got 2000+ photos to dump onto an external hard drive (Samba share technically, but I can always move from local disk to SMB easily). I'm not going to cut & paste 2000 photos individually. Hell, I don't even want to select 2000 photos for a batch operation.


You can use Image Capture with phone plugged into USB and then drag and drop photos/videos to any folder.

I thought that's what AirDrop is for? Even Android can drag and drop files to Windows.


What do you mean from Android to Windows? How exactly can that happen? I have an android phone in my hand now and a windows desktop in front, and no clue how to even begin this drag and drop operation. Where would I even start dragging in Android?


Plug it in via USB, and then most Android devices show up as USB sticks within Windows Explorer. You can access the filesystem the same way you'd access any external media, and drag & drop photos over.

Apple, however, in their infinite wisdom made MacOS pop open iTunes when you connect an iPhone as a USB device. You can "import" them into Photos (another Apple walled garden), but they don't show up as a filesystem, and you can't use normal filesystem operations or terminal commands to move them over.


I know it's not ideal, but if you have iCloud disabled in Photos.app, use that to download photos from your phone to Photos.app, then in Photos.app, select all, and export to your chosen location, then delete from Photos.app. I know it's a few more steps, but this might make it easier than selecting 10+ files to AirDrop. There might be a way to automate that with the shortcuts app. I haven't looked yet. I hope this doesn't come across as "you're holding it wrong", that wasn't my intent.


That's exactly what AirDrop is for. I think the commenter must just not know about it?


I know about AirDrop. I use it for small batches (< 10) of photos.

It fails completely for my use case, which is that every 6 months or so, I want to back up the 2000 or so pictures I've taken to a Samba share on a home server that I control. The closest equivalent would be iCloud, but I refuse to mortgage my family memories to vendor lock-in for a monthly fee.


Have you tried using the Files app for image/file transfers? You can add Samba (and other) shares in there by tapping the '...' in the upper-right corner, hitting 'Connect to Server', then inputting your local server's address and connecting. I use this not just for photos, but for transferring various files and docs to/from my phone/home server.

You mentioned not wanting to mass-select 2000+ photos. If the photos you're uploading fall within a certain date range, you can open the Photos app, search for the date range of photos you want to upload (e.g. "April 20 2024 to today", or "sept 21 2018 to mar 2020"). It'll return photos taken in that date range, where you can tap 'See All', then 'Select' > 'Select All' at the top of the screen. Then you can hit the 'Share' dialogue and upload to your server through Files without having to scroll and select tons of individual pics. Keep in mind that you can't use a '-' in place of the word 'to' when specifying a date range for some reason.

If your images are family memories, you might be interested in Immich[1] (if you're open to making changes to your photo storage setup). Stand up and configure the local server, install the smartphone app, enable automatic sync, and it'll automatically upload new photos from your phone when you open the Immich app. No need for you to manually keep track of your photo syncs. Built to be a local Google Photos replacement. Has features like shared albums, face recognition/person naming, smart search, etc. AI tasks, like everything else, are done entirely locally. It's a nice piece of software, and lots of people (including privacy advocate Louis Rossmann) vouch for it.

[1] https://immich.app/


Where's "Select All" after "Select"? I'm not seeing that option (either on a search result or the "All Photos" collection), it'd solve a bunch of my problems. Thanks for the tip on Files, it seems like that's a nice alternative to AirDrop that's even more direct.

I'm sorry, seems I misspoke. It seems that when you look at an album in Photos you can select all; if you're in the camera roll or elsewhere, you won't get that option. Not sure why Apple would do that, but maybe they'll change it with the Photos rework in iOS 18.

As an alternative, here's a tiny script through iOS' Shortcuts app that selects photos in a date range and sends them to a Samba share through Files.[1] This time I actually tested, and was able to successfully run the Shortcut to copy a date range of photos/videos from the Photos app to my Samba share.

Quick instructions, in case you need them:

1. Create a new Shortcut and add a "Find Photos" module (You can search with the bar at the bottom). Add a filter, set it according to the screenshot[1], starting from "Date Taken" and ending at the stop date.

2. Add a "Save File" module beneath the Photos module (icon visible next to "Save Photos" in the screenshot). Shortcuts should auto-populate the selected photos as a variable so it reads "Save Photos". Hit the ">" next to "Save Photos" and tick any options you need.

3. Make sure to modify the date range each time you need to run the Shortcut.

You can also add/modify filters in each module to better suit your needs. For example, instead of "Date Taken" you could select by "Creation Date", or add in a "Media Type" filter so you only return photos and not videos (or vice-versa).

One thing to know: There's no progress bar so it's helpful to run the Shortcut from the Shortcuts app so you can see when it finishes executing/transferring. You should see a little 'stop' button with a semicircle around it when a Shortcut is executing from the app; it'll turn into a '...' button when it finishes.

[1] https://i.imgur.com/LPsQ8au.jpeg


My comment edit window closed, but if you trust me, I also made up a quick little pre-baked shortcut that should be fairly user-friendly[1]. Will prompt for date range input, calculate and display total upload size, ask for confirmation, prompt for upload location, then show an alert on completion. Also has some very rudimentary error handling in that it takes a file count before and after the upload, and warns if the two counts don't match up.

A few things to note (applies to my above comment as well):

-If you have a less powerful iOS device, your screen may go semi-unresponsive during the upload process. My iPhone XS goes unresponsive until the upload finishes (less the ability to terminate the shortcut via the "stop" button), but my 2017 iPad Pro is totally usable during upload.

-You may get an error along the lines of "This Shortcut is trying to share more than [x] photos." You can allow this by going to iOS Settings > Shortcuts > Advanced, then toggling on "Allow Sharing Large Amounts of Data"

-Again, there's no progress bar, so it may help to run the Shortcut from the editing pane in the Shortcuts app. That way you can at least watch the app step through the script.

[1] https://www.icloud.com/shortcuts/d3258e1d720548cd9e635bbe090...


AirDrop works with any number of files. I've used it for many hundreds of photos at a time; I don't see any reason why it would fail at 2,000.

And it's fairly easy to select all 2,000 files -- in your camera roll, tap Select at top right, then just start dragging from the first photo. This lets you select a range rather than tapping them individually, and just keep dragging at the bottom and it will keep selecting while scrolling downwards. 2,000 photos might take a minute or two to select, but it's not that bad. Then just AirDrop.

Obviously you'll then need to move them from your Mac's internal drive to your desired SMB share.


My solution has been to use iCloud to sync photos to my desktop, but then I just backup the iPhoto directory on my desktop which has all the raw photos in case iCloud goes poof.

Neither do I. And I've been using macs and iOS devices for a while.

You're saying that if i select AirDrop I can send photos from my phone directly to my mac's file system?

No Photos app or iCloud drive shenanigans?


Yup. Just try it!


I always thought it's some Nintendo like thing for exchanging emojis and little computer people :)


Universal Access (Control? Whatever it's called) between multiple Macs not only allows sharing input methods but also dragging files back and forth, and works pretty seamlessly. I imagine the same mechanism is at work here.

> Every time you email a file to yourself so you can pull it up on your friend's laptop, Tim Berners-Lee sheds a single tear.

https://xkcd.com/949/


iMazing might be worth checking out, for photo and video import/export.

It also has a Quick Transfer feature so you just drag and drop a file to your target device, and iMazing gives you a choice of apps to send the file to. It's similar to AirDrop but also works for Windows and seems a bit faster and more stable.


Drag and dropping photos and other files from iPhone (plugged via USB) works well on Linux in the file browser. Too bad it seems Apple can’t figure it out on their own OS, though maybe they have now.


> and not deal with the Photos app

What’s the point of this qualifier?

Why not use the current, up-to-date default app for photo import that has been there since 2002 to literally serve this purpose? Yes it has a lot of extra functionality, but that doesn’t mean you have to use it. You can get originals from Photos and be done with it…


The iPhone Mirroring was the most interesting announcement (and I don't think was leaked).

I suspect it will only be useful for emergencies as latency will be terrible, though.


> as latency will be terrible, though

Based on what? AirPlay mirroring is great today, and this is that with data in the other direction. Current Wifi is perfectly capable of bidirectional voice and video. Adding touch/key events is incremental.


"Terrible" might be an exaggeration, but even in my personal uncongested network the feed can get randomly choppy from wireless AirPlay mirroring.


That might be a sign of excessive congestion on the channel used for Airplay. Esp with device to device direct link, latency should be minimal. If you can, try moving nearby AP’s off the AirPlay channels for your region. For the US: “If possible, avoid using Wi-Fi channels 149 and 153 in rooms where peer-to-peer AirPlay is frequently in use”


Wow, that might be why AirPlay always gave me issues. I’ve been on channel 153 for 5GHz forever. Thanks!


Yeah, I use my AppleTV As a monitor for my laptop all the time via Airplay mirroring and it's fine.


Same, I do this regularly when my wife’s using my desk, the latency is a bit like cloud gaming – it’s there for competitive Counter Strike, it isn’t there for coding or browsing.


Apple would not be releasing iPhone mirroring if the latency were terrible. If they had a low bar for latency, they’d have released iPhone mirroring ten years ago. Apple's Human Interface Guidelines do not specify an exact maximum number of milliseconds for interface latency. However, they emphasize the importance of responsiveness and recommend that any user interface should feel instantaneous and fluid to create a positive user experience. The general goal is to keep latency as low as possible to ensure interactions feel immediate and natural.


I'd like to use it for watching Netflix/Hulu/etc on a plane on a larger screen than my phone without being forced to carry an iPad.

I really wish Apple would just force companies to enable their iPhone/iPad apps on Apple Silicon. But if I could display a video from my phone onto my 15" laptop screen, that would be a nearly as nice.


You can already AirPlay from an iOS device to a Mac– doing this on a plane is a bit trickier because of the networking setup though. I think I have managed to successfully do it once by either 1. doing some sort of tethering/creating a local wifi network on my Mac 2. connecting both devices to the in flight wifi

I use AirPlay to my Mac (and external monitors) even at home since I can watch the 4K feed from apps, which isn't available for some services if you use the web browser (cough HBO cough),


Unfortunately, the DRM might not let you AirPlay Netflix content..

Sidecar/display mirroring from my macbook to my ipad is pretty low latency, so presumably this will be based on a similar technology stack


I hoping my mom can share their phone with their laptop and i can sreenshare into her laptop to troubleshoot her phone.

Also I will use this often to approve okta 2factor requests.


You can already remote control an iPhone through FaceTime I think

You can't control the phone, but you can remotely view its screen and tell the owner what to do.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/109365

Interestingly, you can remotely control a Mac using the Screen Sharing utility (which is a standalone utility, not part of FaceTime).


Oh shit - that's a great point, this will make remote tech support a lot better


This is occasionally quite useful. A few weeks ago, my phone's display went haywire, and the only way I could operate it to secure a backup was through the somewhat hidden mirroring functionality via QuickTime screen recording.


Goodbye having to lift my phone to use crappy enterprise MFA solutions.


This used to exist via QuickTime, but I wasn’t able to get it working recently.

> I suspect it will only be useful for emergencies as latency will be terrible, though.

If they can make the macOS display feature in visionOS usable, I imagine they can make this work too.


I thought you could only do screen recording via QuickTime This mirroring feature actually lets you interact with the phone


I think you’re right about that!


Can't wait to attempt GUI automation on my iPhone using the mac.


The only use case for iPhone Mirroring I can think of is online shopping, when I'm trying to finalize transaction on my Mac, but then realize that I have to login to my banking app to confirm payment, and my iPhone is in another room... I guess you can call that "an emergency".

And of course, there are all those MFA apps which I need for work...


I’m fully expecting this to just be a ported version of the Vision Pro’s feature that allows a Virtual Desktop of your Mac. In that context, it seemed to have extremely low latency.

Why? It's not like remote desktop tech is new or anything.


apple's mac to mac remote desktop is quite good.


Which is actually VNC under the hood.

Not the new one

Wasn't this always possible though? Apple just turned what was once a development feature (Xcode) into a mainstream feature.


With WiFi 6e latency should be ok.


this is needed on Vision Pro


Which, weirdly, should be simple. The Vision Pro’s Mac mirroring is probably the exact same stack as the IPhone to Mac feature.

I hate the notification centre on macOS. Don't see why I need to have notifications appear both on my iPhone and Mac, it's just an annoyance. I'd rather have the notification centre widgets (weather, clock, calendar, etc) always appear without notifications.

(Also, I miss the old widget Dashboard from old versions of macOS. Wish they'd bring that back with the new widgets tech).


> I'd rather have the notification centre widgets (weather, clock, calendar, etc) always appear without notifications.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but did you know you can pin widgets to your desktop in Sonoma? They don’t have to be tucked away in the Notification Center anymore; the entire bottom half of my second monitor is a big widget dashboard.


That does sound like an improvement: in combination with the "Show Desktop" keyboard shortcut it will give quicker access to widgets than going through the clunky notification centre. And it will mean the widgets stay in one place and don't move around because some tiresome notifications got piled up above it.

However, it still doesn't sound as good as the old Dashboard, where widgets effectively got their own desktop (available for quick access at any time with a single keypress or touchpad gesture). This would also be more consistent with iOS, where you can just swipe to the left-most home screen to see a dashboard of widgets.

I like to maintain a "clean desktop" look so not sure if I love the idea of cluttering it up with widgets, but I'll give it a try!


Not a huge fan either – mainly because it’s hard to interact with it purely via the keyboard.

Depending on the implementation, I am however looking forward to this. I need to use some systems that only provide 2FA via a mobile app (i.e. Push OTP), and having to reach for my phone during work hours is pretty bad for my productivity and flow.

(I really prefer TOTP, which I can just let 1Password handle…)


Should have called it Sherlock as they seem to be Sherlocking a lot of apps. For instance I only use Fantastical because I can see my reminders with my events, I assume many people will also switch from a paid password manager to this as well.


I'm guessing (and Apple is probably betting) that far more new users of Passwords will be switching from not having used a password manager at all, not switching from a different password manager. I pay for Bitwarden, and will probably continue doing so because I can't be bothered to switch.

Also until Passwords is easily usable on non-Apple devices, there’ll be a place for password managers.

I think they mentioned it will be available on Windows via iCloud for Windows. But yes, seems like a second class platform for the app.

Math Notes certainly appears to be moving into Soulver/Numi territory. I'm a bit surprised by this one as while I personally love Soulver I didn't know how appealing it would be to Apple's overall user base.


I was going to say too, I love literate-calc in org mode but it's all pretty niche and not a well developed set of sofwtare https://github.com/sulami/literate-calc-mode.el


Isn't the Passwords app essentially just existing features of the OSes extracted into an app? Or does it add new capabilities as well (other than obviously the Windows app)?


The Windows app already existed, actually, as part of iCloud for Windows. It uses a Chrome extension for autofill. https://support.apple.com/guide/icloud-windows/set-up-icloud...


I don’t see myself switching from 1password simply because I don’t think Apple passwords autofill will work natively with non-safari browsers or Linux, both of which I also use. Also, I find the handy 1password mini source pretty convenient.


Other browsers could add support for the native macOS password autofill apis (introduced back in 2020 in macOS Big Sur). So far both Chrome[1] and Firefox[2] have refused to add support.

[1] https://issues.chromium.org/issues/40744291#comment15

[2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1650212


That exchange with Vas (on the Chrome side) was more than a little frustrating.

"Chrome isn't just an App, it's a password provider. We're not throwing that away for Apple."

I don't think that was anyone's intention. Just to support filling passwords from other sources. But he locked into a single use case that was a straw man. "I can understand how some users might want that. That's not a priority for us."


I haven't determined yet whether the new Passwords app will support my killer feature for 1Password: non-password-stuff.

I keep family members' social security numbers, security questions and answers, passport numbers, etc in there, and I don't want to split that data between a passwords app & secure notes.


Yes, it's so nice to keep random info in 1Password. I keep my VIN/license plate, software licenses, API tokens, drivers license info w/ pictures, insurance cards, etc.


It already works for Chrome. Apple has an official extension. However, it’s a bit annoying since you need to authenticate each new browser session with MFA

That one? TIL

https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/icloud-passwords/pe...

> The iCloud Passwords extension is compatible with macOS Sonoma and Windows versions supported by the iCloud for Windows app. To enable the extension on a PC, download the iCloud for Windows app from the Microsoft Store and enable iCloud Passwords.

So AIUI no Linux? (vested interest as that would be my use case)

> However, it’s a bit annoying since you need to authenticate each new browser session with MFA

Well I'd be annoyed if iCloud-stored passwords weren't protected by MFA.

Tangent: I wish the EU would crack down on behemoths that borderline on being utility providers to publish protocol docs on grounds of:

a) auditability

b) interoperability

One can dream...


Can you use an arbitrary account in the new password app ?

The screenshots had no indication of it, and it doesn't seem to have a web counterpart.

One of the major PITA for keychain was the association with your logged in AppleID. If it 's still that way, I don't see a real appeal for people who already went their way to pay for a full-fledge product.

Imagine killing your phone and asking a nearby friend to borrow theirs to quickly cancel an appointment to give you time to deal with it. That's the kind of situation that should be gracefully handled by a password manager service.


Honestly, I support it. I got burnt by Tijme Gommers selling Raivo to someone shady and getting all my passwords locked behind a subscription (and subsequently lost). I don't want to have to check once a day to see if my TOTP app has been sold to some guy in Morocco and my passwords monetised.


Isn't it illegal to push your own products by bundling them with other products?


It is not illegal to push your own products by bundling them with other products. Both MacOS and Windows have dozens or hundreds of their own bundled products.

That can result in anti-trust action if you have a monopoly, which isn't true for Apple in the U.S. The EU has different rules which I don't pretend to understand.


Well Apple has been doing this since forever

> Watson became very popular, and stayed that way right until Apple released Mac OS X 10.2 with Sherlock 3. In that release, Apple added just about everything Watson could do to Sherlock's own interface.


They're not even charging for these things, what's the objection exactly?

Yeah I think that's what MS was doing before one of their antitrust lawsuits.


My thought exactly. Today must’ve been a sad day for many app developers.

I'm very productive in Windows, but Microsoft's recent behavior (jamming Windows full of Edge dark patterns and ads) and the improvement of window management in macOS tempts me to give it another try.


I've used Windows solely for gaming and MacOS solely for MacOS/iOS development (work).

But now...

- Windows is full of AI/Adware bloat with more getting added every few months

- Linux's gaming/nvivia support has come such a long way that in some games it's beating Windows in some benchmarks now

- Apple's app store policies over the last 10 years have caused so many issues that our company is switching everything to webapps.

So I'll probably be switching from Windows+MacOS+Linux this year to just Linux next year.

Thinking of using the KDE or Cosmic desktop environments for personal computer and NixOS for development computer (just so I can test/rollback changes, and if the computer ever dies I can be up and running again in under an hour if I need to meet a deadline).


You don’t have to use the App Store on MacOS.

No but if you want to distribute your app and hope to get any users at all then you need to sign/notarize your app then release it on the macos app store.

Most macOS apps I use were not downloaded from the app store.

For example, Discord, Sketch, Postman, Zoom, VSCode, Figma, Chrome, etc.


Those apps still have to go through the notarization process and occasionally release updates that do nothing except change the notarization.

And sometimes apple will just mess up your developer account so you can't do the notarization meaning the apps stop working for users until apple fixes their mistake.


Sorry but this isn't true in my experience, I've worked on 3 different native macOS apps at different companies in the last few years and all were signed, notarized and then distributed with Sparkle. At least one of those has pretty sizable DAU/MAU figures so you can definitely get users.

Our experience has been ridiculous.

- Build app to finished state and release

- Loop a few times so you have more apps

- Apples changes notarization process

- Spend a few weeks troubleshooting with your users because Apple's notarization works on some machines and not others

- Now cycle through all apps adding only notarization/packaging changes instead of spending that time releasing real features / bug-fixes

- Repeat this each year because they keep changing their own requirements

- Randomly have apple shut down your development account so you can't release any updates. Go through 2 months of jumping through hoops over the phone including getting elevated to the top developer account support team and getting them to admit that their own rules have created impossible catch-22 scenarios that they can't change.

- End up having to create a brand new developer account

- Re-release all apps under new account's notarization

- Somehow convince users to download the new app just so they can get their updates because the old apps can't be auto-updated anymore

- Apple's changed their notarization process again so time to re-release all the apps again

- Continue to deal with customers who complain about issues that have been fixed years ago in the new updates that they aren't getting because they aren't using the right app.

- Spend time, resources and sanity to provide IT support to reassure users that no, they are infact still using the old app and they need to remove the old app and download the new app

- Apple's changed their notarization process again

All that, and the iOS app store is worse.

Dealing with Apple has cost us and our users our sanity.

No. Just no.

As for the other platforms, Android requires only about 2-3 weeks per year to keep apps releasable, And Windows requires only a few hours a year.

Everything we have is being reimplemented on the web now. Our first migrated app is being released in 4 months with another 2 new apps released shortly after (thanks to shared code). After some project post-mortem analysis early next year, and some v1.1s based on user feedback, we plan to start porting over all the others.


Yeah frustrating process for sure, I wasn't necessarily challenging those aspects, just that I hadn't seen many companies distributing mac apps through the mac app store (for many of the reasons above).

I know your situation very well, I still develop a lot on Windows, but my main computer is a Mac. I find the hardware amazing, and the software a joy to use.

Windows 11 is behaving more and more like the viruses and adwares I spent so many years defending against.


I just switched to Kubuntu.

Everything I want/need including games via steam run perfectly on it now. I can't see a reason to return to MS or got to Apple.


Windows with multiple displays makes me tear my hair out, no matter what you do to the settings. I try to use Playnite on my TV in extended display mode and it is the most maddening thing.

Windows 11 can’t even move a window in “overview mode” from one screen to another. Something single-men projects trivially do. It is absolutely useless, I rather use Gnome than that.

A cool tidbit shown in one of the screenshots is that Apple Pay will be unlocked to other browsers. It is not clear whether they will need to be running WebKit or not for this to work, but looking forward to support in Orion.


Given that all relevant browsers on macOS either bring their own WebKit build or run another engine, system-WebKit only would be close to false advertising, so I really hope it's not.

I'm really looking forward to this – big fan of Apple Pay, but I'm not switching to Safari and rebuilding my shopping cart for non-logged-in purchases, and that's where it's arguably most useful.


Chrome is not using system webkit.

That's my point exactly. If they'd limit to system webkit, they'd exclude the biggest non-Safari browser, making this a non-feature.

Word is that it'll work via QR code scanning from an iPhone anyway, in all browsers! Very clunky, but much better than Webkit only.


Might seem like a small one, but finally: a passwords app.

That one really makes me happy.

1Password was a bliss until they went all in on subscriptions, and Bitwarden, for all its benefits is, I gotta say, rather abysmal when it comes to GUI and UX of their native app.

The Passwords app looks like the best of both worlds in terms of UX and functionality.


I really hope that there's a way to integrate the new passwords app into browsers other than Safari. The only reason I'm still with 1Password is because of their Firefox extension for auto fill.

You can already "autofill" Firefox (and other) input fields with keychain data in Sonoma. Its a bit cumbersome, but right click into the field, select "autofill" from the context menu, then either "passwords" or "contacts", search/select/confirm the data to be inserted.

There's a bunch more to "autofilling". 1Password has ability to generate new passwords, save new registrations, autofill MFA codes, and even read QR codes on screen to setup MFA. None of this is possible on Firefox with Keychain.

Do the hardened InfoSec folks here on HN have an opinion on how the new Apple/iCloud Passwords setup will make one vulnerable to a SIM swapping attack, per this anecdote [1]:

> apple sherlocked 1Password today, so i'd like to remind you that your Apple ID is only as secure as your carrier. if you have 2FA on and get SIM swapped, attackers can lock you out of it PERMANENTLY. last month it happened to me. make sure it doesn't happen to you

[1] https://x.com/blader/status/1800263787746066646


I didn't see any details, but I'm hoping that you can easily import password lists. I just set up 1Password, I'd hate to have to input each individual password again

Keychain already allow for imports from a .CSV file for years now.

I did not know that, haven't used Keychain much. Thanks for the info!

I would worry more about export in the long run, since lock-in is a thing and re-typing 100 login entries is not fun, I've been there...

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