No, that is what parenthood has done to you. And I'm glad for you but you don't have to look far to find people for whom the effect was less than positive and if I relate more to those people than to you then I would do well to heed their warnings than your espousing of supposed absolute truth.
Seriously why is it that parents want to convince others who don't buy into the whole pronatalist view so much that having kids is always, every time, and in every way, the most positive, ultimate experience any human can have?
Sorry but it sounds as if you have some personal issues. I'm telling you that being a father is awesome because it is. If I told you that skydiving is awesome, would you comment how I was talking about how skydiving is awesome as if it was some sort of absolute truth? Of course it's my experience. All my opinions are my experiences.
If you are already a parent and hate being a parent, wishing for a life without kids (I too, know people like this), then I concede your feelings are valid, and feel sorry that you haven't been able to take the same things I have from this experience.
If you are not a parent, you are essentially arguing from a position of ignorance. Because of that, your opinion, while valid, comes with a huge caveat. It would be the same as me as a man trying to provide an opinion about how wonderful pregnancy is.
I have had a lot of wonderful experiences in this life. Falling in love, jumping out of a plane, personal achievements of all sorts. None of these experiences compare to fatherhood in any way that I could even being to relate them. Sorry, but that's not something I'm going to keep to myself.
I'm not telling you to have kids. I'm not a pusher, and to be quite frank I personally don't give a fuck about how you choose to live your life. I'm telling you that having a child has been the most positive, ultimate human experience I've had. Why should I deny this because you've got your ovaries in a knot?
I do have a personal issue with people saying kids are absolutely the best thing one can do with one's life or the best experience one can have in one's life and therefore also implying that everyone should have them. So if I mistook your statement as one of unqualified pro-natalism then I apologize. Ovaries in a knot? Lol. I'm a man so society readily accepts, even applauds in some cases, my desire to not have kids though your statement is telling of the vitriol women in our society face who have decided not to have kids.
So the logic is: you wouldn't understand because you're not a parent, but if you are a parent then you're not a good one (i.e "you haven't been able to take the same things I have from this experience").
It's true, it's kind of a strange word that I've mainly only seen used in the child-free communities, but is there a better word for the viewpoint that everyone should have kids? "Breeder mentality" just seems too harsh.
> a better word for the viewpoint that everyone should have kids
I have a good one: "opinion".
I have another great one for when someone won't leave you alone and insists that you hold their opinion or there's something wrong with you: "fanatic". See also: "jerk", "creep", "weirdo", "person I avoid".
I really don't get these quasi-political categorizations. If someone's being a jerk about their opinion, they're a jerk. Words like "pronatalist" just strike me as unbelievably effete. Like "pronatalists" are this powerful lobby group from whom we all need protection.
If someone won't shut up about their opinion and keep trying to push it on you, they're just a jerk, and probably kind of stupid too.
That's like saying we shouldn't call sexism sexism because its just the opinion of a few men that women are inferior and if they are being jerks about their opinion then they are just being jerks. No, having the word pronatalism calls out the fact that it is just a viewpoint. And it is one shared and promoted by many - often to the detriment of those who think otherwise. Having names for things helps in clarifying what it is we are talking about.
I guess what I really want to say is that the world is so divided and polarized, can't we just this one time drop the anti- and pro-whatever and just say that someone disagrees with us and move on?
The thing is that I think the term came into use as somewhat of a backlash by those who are tired of having to explain over and over to the vast majority of people questioning them why someone might choose not to have kids and then being dismissed as anti-kid, abnormal or worse. I think once society gets to the point where the majority of people finally get that it is just a choice, and I believe we will get there eventually, it won't be as much an issue.
I'm not complaining about namecalling, I'm complaining about quasi-political categorizations like "pronatalist" which sets up "pronatalists" in one camp and "antinatalists" in another. I object to the needless polarization.
Sometimes people are jerks, that's not polarization.
You shouldn't. If you don't feel the overwhelming need to have children, you probably shouldn't.
I wanted to have children from when I was about 10. I knew that it would be the most important thing I was to do with my life, and that's how it's turned out.
FWIW I don't know a single parent who would say that it's not absolutely awesome to be a parent. Maybe I don't know many bad parents...
Thank you! You see for a minute there I thought you were in the "everyone should have kids" camp. So really we are not so far apart in opinion because if you wanted to have kids since you were 10 and, not really knowing anything else about you but assuming you are a good, responsible person, I would be the first to say you should have kids.
Having had an experience and not desiring to repeat it has nothing to do with whether or not you were good or bad at it. Plenty of bad parents out there who for some reason keep having kids and will probably tell you it's the most awesome thing and most of the good parents I know take a measured approach to their own procreation. Some have honestly said they probably would not do it again - of course who knows as they can't go back.
There are a few people that regret being parents. The funny thing is that if you talk to them you'll find that they've become parents because they though it's something the should do, and not something they wanted to do.
Yes, exactly - and where did this idea that they should have kids come from? What I'm saying is that people need a balanced perspective when deciding and all too often it is the "everyone should have kids" voice that is only heard and anyone that states anything to the contrary is summarily dismissed or berated. That is changing, albeit slowly but I will also be the first to say that at the end of the day if decide you want kids then go for it.
I'm not sure where you are hearing the "everyone should have kids" refrain in 2012. Perhaps this is from your parents or friends?
I'd submit too that perhaps a lot of it is self imposed, as witnessed by your comments in this thread that immediately assumed more than one person was of the opinion that we are somehow insinuating you are a lesser person from not having kids.
Outside of your own family, there's not a heck of a lot of pressure to have kids these days. Your family though is - respectfully - your problem. :-)
It actually feels good to me to see you talk about the idea of society pushing you to have kids with such incredulity. You clearly haven't experienced the religious culture that I have, which pushed my wife and I to have children ASAP, and continually preaches that if you don't find parenthood (particularly motherhood) extremely fulfilling then there is something wrong with you. I assure you that this culture is still very alive and well in 2012.
Yes, but you are clearly aware that you are part of a religious subset of society, one that doesn't compare to typical NA culture as it stands overall.
I thought it was self evident what perspective I was coming from, but just in case it isn't, let me clarify that I'm not speaking about strict orthodox Jewish cultures, east Indian patriarchal cultures, or what happens in the Tibetan foothills, but of the mainstream, celebrity worshiping, I want pleasure now North American public.
The culture I grew up in is mainstream enough to produce a serious presidential candidate. I don't think you realize just how entrenched this kind of culture actually is in this country. Favorite past-times? Decrying the hedonistic, worldly, evil, "mainstream, celebrity worshiping, I want pleasure now" society while simultaneously taking great pleasure in it.
Religious subset? I don't know about Canada, but the US is still a majority Christian country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_United_Stat...) and very much has the attitude that sofal was stating. And I would suspect the majority of athesists would have the same view. That said, actions speak louder than words and the fact that fertility rates in most industrialized countries hover just around replacement or lower shows that while people say they want one thing they obviously don't always practice what they preach - they just want everyone else to.
I'm not talking about me,I'm asking where the people you know that regret having kids got the idea that they should have kids. It's the default stance in most societies - yes even in 2012. I have heard it from a lot of people and strangely enough I hear it on HN every time someone says they don't want kids or think they aren't worth having. Inevitably when someone says that there are those who clamor in and have to say that having kids is the best thing in the world. My question to you is why did you feel such a strong need to respond? You didn't have to respond but you did - why?
No, that is what parenthood has done to you. And I'm glad for you but you don't have to look far to find people for whom the effect was less than positive and if I relate more to those people than to you then I would do well to heed their warnings than your espousing of supposed absolute truth.
Seriously why is it that parents want to convince others who don't buy into the whole pronatalist view so much that having kids is always, every time, and in every way, the most positive, ultimate experience any human can have?