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I'm 38 Web Developer and close to burnout
32 points by yousuke86 on April 20, 2024 | hide | past | favorite | 50 comments
I'm a 38 years old web developer, I have done this job for roughly 15 years. 2 years ago I had a child with my wife and moved in a small town in Italy, where in-laws help us. I'm working fully remote since then for a company.

I think I have reached some sort of burnout/depression.

I am home all day long and I do not find enjoyment for what I do anymore (it has been like that for many years, but I never wanted to face it). Recently it struck me: my job will be one of the first ones wich will be replaced by AI. Maybe not tomorrow, but sooner that many think. Even if it doesn't happen I still will end up depressed in a few months if I don't do something.

I don't know if I have the will or strength to learn anything else. I studied computer science, but I wasn't good, just average. Now I have forgotten pretty much everything about algorithm, calculus or algebra, I have only used JavaScript as programming language. I have built full stack applications, but never went deep into anything, always stayed in the shallows.

This is obviously my fault.

Right now I feel I am stuck in a bad place, not sure on what to do... I guess this is a plea for help? Has anyone else been in a similar situation, what might help?




I feel you. Fighting with burnout for nearly a year now, took many weeks off because of that (and I'm younger than you!). I still mostly enjoy coding privately but not the things I do at work. Everything has to be done "yesterday", management doesn't care about thousands of bugs, every week new features, customer asks, management says yes, needs to be done in a week or two. Daily standups lasting 45-60 minutes, a lot of time wasted in pointless meetings. I'm only doing React Native (TypeScript) currently and this whole thing is such a mess. Did other projects in Java before that which I enjoyed a lot more. I'm feeling like I'm forgetting everything and my brain only knows JavaScript now. Finding a new job is next to impossible or full of red flags.

First thing you should do: Take time off. Like 2-4 weeks. Talk to your doctor. Don't get a bad feeling because you are "doing nothing" or because "your colleagues have to do everything". No one cares about that, trust me. Do something completely different in this time, like talking daily walks.

And don't worry about AI, it won't take your job. Not in Europe ;).


So I’m shifting into CS after a career I cannot do anymore. My best advice to you is to start having adventures. You’re in Italy! I’d do just about anything to get my family EU right to work, you’re in a very good spot. Go backpacking in Spain (I’ve done it now 2x), or climb a volcano (there should be one near you).

The experiences you have will be the only thing you’ll look back on fondly when you’re an old man, go have experiences.

If you’re in a really bad spot, I don’t know how you could but is there a way you could reach out to me on here short of publishing my contact info on HN? Might I suggest reading Man’s Search for Meaning (by Viktor Frankl) and doing things that excite you. Find those things and do them!


Coding often can become a (burnout) trap. Fascinating in the beginning, and over time it start to become misaligned with your inner motivation and you burnout. Take some time for you alone and your inner motivation will come on the surface, follows that.


I couldn't have written it better than Phil. I think it is important to take some time out for yourself.


Amen. Coding can be a self setting nerd snipe.


Couldn't agree more


A 2 year old probably means very little sleep at nights and very little quiet time in the house.

I was in a very similar situation and going someplace else to work (cafe,shared working space, wherever really) helped me a lot. It's a start. Getting out of the house helps.


My son sleeps fine thanks to God. I'm starting to go outside for work, at least in the mornings.


go outside to a park or quiet place every morning.. if you have a busy day, start early.. several options of what to do, but try something and stick to it for a few weeks.. make sure to get rested.. try no computer or media for an HOUR before bed each night. try to establish a regular routine with sleep.


AI wont replace your job. Companies like squarespace do what AI does for web, but a million times better, and even that hasn’t replaced your job.

What we refer to as “AI” as it stands is all smoke and mirrors. It’s a different UX over essentially a search engine.

There’s a school of thought that says what we have now can be scaled up to levels which create an emergent property of reasoning and thought (which indeed would replace all of our jobs), but there has been literally 0 evidence of this, with hundreds of billions poured into the field. And the incentives are very much there for AI researchers to keep pushing this narrative that GAI is close.


Take a step back for a moment. Looks like you're doing pretty well to me.

Success in life (wife, kids, close family)

Computer science degree

15 years of delivering business value

Experience across the full stack of development

Experienced in JavaScript

Experience in all the ancillary tools (vs code, GIT, windows/linux etc)


You're not wrong. All these facts are shadowed by the new life structure, which it seems I have to adjust. If my mental health deteriorates, non of the above will matter.


It sounds like you're needing to

1. Do some corporate espionage

2. Become a revolutionary

3. Study category theory

4. Adopt a heavy cannabis concentrate habit

5. Wander in public speaking gibberish

6. Be held at gun point because of how your luscious hair makes the gunman's wife feel

8. Shave your luscious locks out of respect for the institution of marriage (and to cosplay as Alexander1 Grothendieck)

7. Start a company making real value instead of web crap

8. Adopt a leadership and mentorship role, where you teach category theory, business theory, and software engineering

9. Build and own your own AI replacement

This was my own burnout recovery journey - yours can be different and hopefully easier!

Good luck!


very creative and a fun read, but awful advice. This family has a new child.. they need security and some sleep, not whatever that list is .. ESPECIALLY no Start A Company - FU.

source: divorce


So I am a 45 year old former JavaScript developer with 15 years experience. I burned out last year just before being laid off.

The challenge that I could not see is that I absolutely love writing applications in JavaScript (really TypeScript now). I loved the flexibility of the language with its lexical scope and functions as first class citizens.

What I had grown to hate was JavaScript at work. Most of my peers were afraid to do anything other than basic CRUD apps in exactly the same way with multiple, often unnecessary layers, and tremendous hand holding. This pattern of fear felt universal across multiple employers, a faulty attempt to mitigate risks by avoiding uncertainty. The things people stressed over most were problems of their own invention and the solutions they chose were always finding some additional tool so that they could further avoid the uncertainty around the problem. It is/was stupid and completely unnecessary. Worse, you couldn’t talk to people about it without invoking bizarre behavior, which is what people do when they are afraid and not able to see it.

Fortunately, I was able to transition to something else in a far more mature environment.


Being myself in somewhat similar state couple times I suggest more wholistic examining of your life and other aspects beside work.

Chances are it has nothing to do with your work per se. But it is mentally and emotionally easy to blaim it. And our mind and feelings prefer easier path, not the right one.


Can you speak Italian? Do you feel isolated in Italy because you don't know anyone? I feel this way when I visit my wife's family for longer periods of time because I don't know the language and don't have the freedom I have in my home country.


I am Italian. I don't know anyone there though.


Forza e coraggio, from another italian in tech and fully remote worker


Grazie! Love what you've built, it must've been a lot lit of work!


I've worked in CS for two decades and I'm an external examiner for CS students and if it's any consolation I think frontend work will be some of the last programming jobs to be replaced by AI. I'm not sure the LLM's will really even get there in general. Sure you can get them to pass the CS examns better than most students, but you can't make them code anything useful once you add the whole "business" part into the equation. Well, that's a truth with modifications because they'll continue getting better at automating repetitive and boring tasks. With the way they work it'll be really hard to get them to actually solve real business related issues because they're not actually using any sort of logic or "thinking", they're generating their responces on probability based on token weights. Which is great for things that have been solved a billion times... like sorting a binary search tree or whatever, but terrible when it comes to doing anything with some silly tax law that doesn't even make sense to humans.

Anyway... Even without AI we all live in a world where the economy can turn to shit over night and it's really not useful to worry about it. I know that's much easier said than done, but you're not in control of whether or not AI will replace you, and worrying about something that may never happen is really unhealthy. It's not really healthy to regret your past, you've worked with javascript and never really done anything to branch out? So what? You're 38, you can change that. I know people who switched fields of work in their 50ies, it's all about just going for it. Of course you sort of need to know what you want to go for, and it sounds a little like you might not.

Then there is the working remote in a small town part. Do you get out and talk to other people? If you don't then maybe pick up a new hobby, or go to some of the small town events and participate in things with other people.

I would probably start by talking to your doctor about what sounds like a depression.


Yeah, I will talk to a doctor soon. I think you are right, it does sound like a depression.


As a javascript web developer, you have skills to build a website. Have you tried building a side project? Perhaps it could be for passion, or perhaps it could lead to side or full income.

I faced a similar complete dispassion towards my coding work last year, and decided to embark on a quest to build something of my own. It's hard, but I also feel alive needing to constantly think creatively about creating value for society--infinitely more fulfilling than performing the tasks set out to me by my manager.


Lean into the fact that you're getting help from your in-laws, and save all of the money you can. That's a very fortunate place to be in, regardless of all the AI doomerism all around. Just save everything you can, and offset the feelings of insecurity with something tangible, like cash in the bank.

Also: demand for technology is growing. Some fancy AI is not going to handle all of those very specific needs. Trust that you'll figure it out, should you need to.


Your work doesn't seem to have a purpose for you, apart from just paying the bills/surviving. It would help to find a new motivation. For me, it was improveing my coding skills to get better paying jobs, so that I can save a lot of money and eventually be financially free (live off savings instead of salary). This motivated me for the last 10 years of my career. Without this goal, I might have burned out and end up in a bad place.


Maybe branch out. Become a general programmer/engineer instead of a JS programmer. Maybe even work with some hardware and firmware too. We live in an era where there is no need to specialize; the gates are open. I feel like most learning of a given discipline happens in the beginning; the rest is diminishing returns.


I would think about buying cheap land in Italy for farming and go for farming for bio olive / oil or wine.


What do you do outside of coding and family that makes you happy?

I went through a similar journey recently and I found that re-discovering the things that brought me joy has changed my mindset. Consider projects or find hobbies away from the computer, for me it has been basketball


Amico you need to get out of the house more, whether exercise, gardening, or work from cafes, etc. It's just a job, and don't blame things like AI for your mood. Make some small positive changes vs looking at computer.


You're like the 372518th burnout here. There's a lot in the search...


So true


Maybe go back to school? Do a masters? That might give you a fresh perspective on the state of things in our field?

(If you need to put food on the table, you could consider doing it part time too).


I feel for you.

What do you truly truly enjoy?

It's easy for me to ask you question.

Often times, the answer lies within.

PS: Please enjoy the time with your child; It doesn't come often in a life time :)


How about the child? Does the depression have anything to do with the child? Were you burned out on both sides (work and family life)?


I was burnout for 10 years but that was without a development job at all. I hope things come together for you.


Some ideas...

> 2 years ago I had a child

Build little games and toys using JS and Raspberry Pis, or focus on spending quality time with them showing them Italy - collect bugs or leaves. There is probably a lot of overlap between what you know how to build and what a kid would love

> I am home all day long and I do not find enjoyment for what I do anymore

Do something else. Get into skateboarding or surfing or hiking or biking. Action sports can be done solo and have a built-in progression system, it can be addicting and it's nice to have a physical/active complement to your tech/computer side. It will open up more communities to you and give more content to your life, you'll meet new people too, some friends, some not! It all adds more spice to life though.

> JavaScript

Has been stagnant lately, especially with the rise of AI. This leads to my next one:

> I will be replaced by AI

Help AI replace you and then sell your solution to the AI companies, because they're actually nowhere near replacing people and the industry needs technical help bad. The JavaScript ecosystem could use a lot more AI tooling, even if they're just wrappers around Python libraries, or more examples of building LLM-based apps in JS. As someone the same age as you, with also the same number of years of professional experience, I've found the AI/LLM trend really refreshing and interesting compared to typical full-stack dev, which is so corporate and boring now.

TLDR: You seem bored more than anything, yet it sounds like you're overall taken care of and living in a pretty awesome location. You have a lot to be grateful for considering how many people are roughing it, and you have a lot in your life already that is exciting and that you can work with - you just can't see it. If you don't have coffee normally (in Italy yeah right) try having good coffee in the morning, or try a psychedelic to help you see things anew, sometimes we just need to be reminded of who we are, what we're doing.


Learning more about LLM is next on my to do list. I would follo the course from OPEN AI and LangChain


Nice, highly recommended. When you use up the $5 of OPENAI_API_KEY credits, there's always Ollama which is free :)

Run open-source models locally on your computer like `ollama run mistral` and it will be serving over localhost. Your app can then use any LLM locally by HTTP request or you can use an npm wrapper (npm i ollama) and it's as simple as `ollama.chat()`.

Libraries like LangChain (LlamaIndex, etc.) also come with the Ollama wrapper in the library. You can just `import { Ollama } from "@langchain/community/llms/ollama"`

(not affiliated with any of these, just used them as a dev)

Make sure to share on Show HN what you build :D


What do you code in day to day?


JavaScript


I don't know if I can give you any useful advice but I can relate my own experience (40+ years programming) and how I have learned to avoid burnout, after going through it a couple of times.

It depends on the project and the organization, but a lot of programming can feel Sisyphean -- you just push the same boulder up the hill and it rolls back down. Requirements change, legacy code requires maintenance, it starts to look old and boring and you feel like you will never get to do something fun and interesting. And the job often feels thankless -- management, customers, users don't know or appreciate the work you put in, they just keep coming up with more demands.

When I start to think those thoughts and feel frustrated I remind myself that I get paid well for doing work few people can do, and I have to find satisfaction in myself for doing a good job. I make the effort to get to know other parts of the business, people outside of IT, so I can see the effects of my work and maybe find ways to improve things no one told me about. Sometimes the end users tell me how something I did made their job easier, sometimes management tells me how I saved money or improved the bottom line. So try engaging with the rest of the organization. I think too many programmers stay in their cubicle (or in our case, our home office -- I work remotely too) and feel alienated from the company and end users, which can make the job feel less satisfying and disconnected.

My parents had what I thought of as boring union jobs. They did their 9 to 5, came home and never talked about or stressed over work. It was the same predictable thing day after day. They didn't expect their job to provide personal growth, or to match up with their dreams, or even to enjoy their jobs. It was a way to pay the bills, to raise kids, to save up for things they did want to do. They might have a good day, make friends at work, have a laugh, but their happiness didn't derive from the job and they didn't expect it to. I used to think my parents had failed because they didn't "follow their dreams" or strive for more "fulfilling" jobs, but as I got older I started to think they got it right. Now I don't expect my work to make me happy, or think I need to enjoy every minute of it. I get paid well and I don't have to break my back like a lot of people do for much less money.

I think people imagine a more enjoyable and fulfilling career and then measure what they actually do against that imaginary path not taken. But when you talk to people you find out almost everyone feels the same way. You can find people online bragging about changing the world and living their dream, and maybe some of them do, but mostly I think it's either inexperience or delusion, or fishing for likes on social media. Today's hyper-motivated young programmer still feeling the thrill of getting some cool code to work will run out of energy and realize the software business has exploited that exuberance and optimism. Douglas Coupland (I think) once quipped that the software business was built on the labor of unsocialized young men. I remember when I looked forward to working 16 hours a day for pizza and beer. Then I figured out I was just getting used, I didn't have the maturity and I mistook a few perks and a fake "fun" workplace for living my dream. Once I had a family the job seemed more necessary but far less important to my personal sense of self and well-being. Now I just want the paycheck for a reasonable number of hours.

Over time I came to expect less from my work in terms of kudos or happiness or self-fulfillment. I didn't expect it, but letting go of those expectations made me feel more satisfied with the work -- I could deal with it as a craft I had mastered and take satisfaction in doing a good job, even if no one else recognized that. The book Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance helped me rethink my priorities and expectations, and reframe "quality" and "satisfaction" and "enjoyment" as things I could control rather than things that might happen to me (or not).

Good luck either coming to terms with the job situation, or finding a different path that suits you.


Thanks for sharing your experience! There's certain a disconnect between my tasks and how the product is actually used. I can certainly try to get more involved there. I think the combination of the new life, being lonely (I am not a loner) and the responsibility of a family are making me seeing things from a new perspective. What triggered this burnout is the very real possibility I will be replaced by AI and I wouldn't know what to do next


I suggest you ignore the AI hype. The nonstop media coverage and announcements prop up an investment bubble. LLMs cannot replace programmers yet and based on what I’ve seen they won’t get to that point anytime soon, if ever. Some companies will try because programmers cost a lot and the process of software development can look unpredictable and expensive to managers.

I have seen threats like this come and go before — low code/no code, offshoring, packaged software. I’ve already been through two “AI winters” in my career. LLMs can (barely) write working code given the right prompts and someone examining and testing the output, but writing code only describes part of the work professional programmers do. LLMs can’t solve business problems or participate in the team and organization to multiply the skills and experience needed to implement complex solutions. If managers could describe requirements in sufficient detail without ambiguity LLMs might work for some simple tasks, but I have almost never seen that in practice — when was the last time you got complete, consistent, and unambiguous requirements?

LLMs will likely top out before they can replace anything but the most rote jobs because they just regurgitate training data. And the cost of high-end AI will likely approach the cost of human programmers before AI outperforms people in meaningful tasks. So don’t worry about that.

Management may use AI as an excuse to reduce labor costs and keep the remaining staff scared but I think that strategy will ultimately fail as they realize LLMs/AI don’t really do the same job as professional programmers.

I also live in a foreign country, and I don’t speak the language fluently. I’m ok with that, I actually enjoy the “soft fog of incomprehension” as novelist Lawrence Osborne put it. Every day I feel curious and interested, living in a culture and language I don’t understand. I make the effort to talk to people, at least one stranger every day, and I’ve made friends that way.

I know it sounds trite, but remind yourself that you experience emotions and feelings in your mind. Those don’t happen to you out of your control. You can’t change the world or other people but you can adapt and change how you react and feel. Reframe “I am lonely” or “This job burns me out” as “I feel lonely” and “I feel burned out” so you can act on those feelings and how you react to the world.


> when was the last time you got complete, consistent, and unambiguous requirements?

This made me cry/laugh. Very astute.


The moment you realize that nobody cares about your burnout and you need to be strong and make tough decisions to change your life, understanding that you are the only one who can do this, the better.


I 100% agree, I am still on the wining part which doesn't help. I really need to man up.


>nobody cares about your burnout

Such an odd and rather rude thing to say. He has his wife so at least one person cares/should care about it. OP you definitely need help and you are never alone.


It's just a different approach to tackling burnout/depression... probably something that worked for him/her.


Right along with a leather strap across the ass, no doubt. "MAN UP, BOY!"


Hey bro! I'm here, I hace the same situation. Just try to talk with others. I'm available. Work I another please. Do hobbies. Share time with you wife. I'm trying to left of this.




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