Ask HN: In-game purchases: addiction or harmless entertainment?

[MichaelRo]

What do you think about children making frequent in-game purchases? Is it a dangerous dopamine addiction similar to gambling or just the reinvention of coin-operated Arcade machines?

There's a lot of discussion of the former but not so much on the fact that paying money to play might be just a re-invention of the 80's coin-operated arcades. In this case it's not THAT bad, right?

I need to make up my mind, do I harm my kid by paying real money to buy him in-game currency? Like enabling a gambling addict? Creating a future gambling addict? Or it's just playing Street Fighter on the arcade, harmless and fun?

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/video-arcade--44895327522880952/

[hayst4ck]

The harm you might be doing is to teach your kid that reward comes from consumption rather than creation. Likewise random reinforcement is a powerful force that most people's minds are not prepared to handle.

I personally don't think it is ethical to put your kid in someone's skinner box: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

I especially don't think it's ethical when they are engineered to be as addicting as possible. We literally have algorithms that measure levels of engagement or spending and then turn the knobs the game has access to, to maximize those values.

If gambling based reward occurs in the context of other creation based and self improvement based reward structures, it's probably not bad.

If gambling based reward occurs in the absence of healthy rewarding activities, or is the only regular and/or reliable rewarding activity, then I think it is more likely to lead to poor outcomes.

The real question though is how easy it is for you. Buying a loot box is a trivial time investment on your part. Taking your kid to guitar lessons and organizing socially rewarding play sessions with friends is a much greater investment.

Regardless of the kids situation, I think buying the loot box for your benefit is the greater danger. If the loot box buys you quiet time, then it may be conditioning you more than your kid.

[favourable]

> that paying money to play might be just a re-invention of the 80's coin-operated arcades

I agree. Game companies don't create games for free, and if they do, then they're siphoning off personal data and selling it to the highest bidder to support themselves. The business model should be clear: if you're getting a game for free, developers need to state how they make money for transparency purposes.

[samstave → favourable]

You didnt own an video game cabinet in the 80s and had to pay rent so people could comple play it and put money into it so you could pay the rent for the place for the people to pay to play (an arcade)....

Today we buy games, and we own the arcade. Fuck ingame extras.

Razor1911 forever /s

[CyberDildonics → samstave]

You didnt own an video game cabinet in the 80s and had to pay rent so people could comple play it and put money into it so you could pay the rent for the place for the people to pay to play (an arcade)....

What?

[samstave → CyberDildonics]

conflating that people used to pay video coin-ops fro games to similar to DLC is ridiculous.

The coins were paying for the games, the arcade rent, etc...

With home machines, you own the arcade - so you just buy the game once... dlc payments are nothing like coins for cabinets.

[HenryBemis → samstave]

Continuing.. you buy/own the console, you pay for electricity/rent/mortgage, you pay for repairs, for the new/upgraded equipment, etc. So the cost is heavily externalised to the user, as a trade-off to comfort (hey you get to play from a couch/comfy chair instead of standing up).

So it depends on the usage to see if you spend less, more or break even on the costs.

I don't include cheating (i.e. after finishing D2 a few times, I started using SaveGameEditors so I can play with 'this' or 'that' set) as this has immense value that could not easily be made in an arcade.

[fragmede]

It's about dollars per unit of entertainment time. what is the value of a dollar? was to the arcade actually worth it, when you could buy an NES and not have to put quarters in it to play? Rent vs own. It’s not the gambling that’s the problem, though it’s certainly a very big problem, but the underlying acceptance of the rental model for things that so shouldn’t be that’s the problem.

[armchairhacker]

I’d give the kid an allowance, where they can earn money by doing extra chores and learning more etc. and let them make in-game purchases with this money. Either they decide themselves that it’s worth saving the money for better things, or they develop discipline through extra work and learning, which presumably means they can rein in the addiction when they grow up.

[d--b]

I think it's neither. It's just spoiling them.

It's like buying them stupidly expensive sneakers. They don't need it, but it makes them feel good. I'd rather teach them that games that use these techniques are bad.

I don't think it has anything to do with arcades. Arcades were an "activity", like going to the movies or an attraction park or something.

[logtempo]

spending coins, be it valuable coins or pixels coins, can be addictive. On the other hand, it can teach the children to plan, save money for later. or spending it instantly. So...it depend of the game.

Regarding spending dollars coins to buy pixels coins, it's up to you.

[meristohm]

As an adult with a history of addiction to videogames, formed during childhood where I used games to escape family stress (and because, c'mon, they're fun!), I would only introduce digital games as a thing I do together with my child, and without the loot boxes or other microtransactions. Videogames are some of the low-hanging fruit of pass-time options. As someone who promotes rewilding (the land, water, and ourselves- changing our habits towards a pre-agricultural existence, like in The Birchbark House, by Louise Erdrich; I'm reading this series to my child), is recommend minimizing the time spent indoctrinating children into the wonderful world of computers, and maximizing the time you spend together gathering food and making meals (it's okay to spend hours a day doing this, especially as a social activity), moving through the world outside together, playing games that aren't on flat screens (myopia is a problem), and facilitating your child's time with peers.

I struggle with the latter, as we're in a rural area with few young children, and those that do live around here are habituated to spending hours a day on their computers.

On addiction: when I was hooked on WoW I remember trying to get my longtime friends involved. They gamely tried, too, but were well-enough adjusted that the hooks didn't catch. That did not compute for me; how could you not be devoted to this experience? I saw myself as a lifer. Now, after reading about addiction, and in talking with therapists, I understand not everyone gets hooked on the same thing, if anything at all. The design of games can make it really easy to get hooked, though, and hard to crawl out. That's where I think they go wrong; nothing should be so easy, except actions like breathing and using our bodies (much of which requires training, which goes back to how we spend our time).

[jowdones]

Seems addiction to me.

[joshxyz]

they need to earn it.

[moomoo11]

Seems like a parenting fail to me.

Parents should be more mindful of what they’re exposing their children to by giving them a tablet or phone.

Is it really that hard to just not give kids these devices or maybe you know… spend quality human time with them?

[soulbadguy → moomoo11]

> Is it really that hard to just not give kids these devices or maybe you know… spend quality human time with them?

Sadly yes. I do not have kids, but a lot of my friends do. Beside the peace of mind of having basically a tracking device wih your kids at any time, not having a phone in theses day and age can be dramatic for some kids social life.

In term of spending quality time, yes in a perfect world that would be ideal... but life is life. Between works, house chores and simply life... Some parent just don't have the energy to give their kids full attention at every time of the day.

> Seems like a parenting fail to me.

Maybe. But parents are human and human fail. A good society take into account the limits of being a human and design rules around those limits.