I hope you can tell some stories! If not here, you should definitely set up a blog to write down your thoughts. I find it really interesting to read and hear about how the industry has evolved over the years.
I think what looks like ageism is often not (but probably sometimes is).
It's more that, for most business programming roles, experience stops being cumulative at some point. For example, for a Java developer, 5-7 years is probably about where experience tops out, and beyond that it doesn't really help if you have 15 years experience in Java, or you have experience in Perl before you did Java, etc.
Cumulative experience of 10, 20, 30 years is really only useful for highly specialized roles (writing compilers, database engines, operating systems), management, etc.
I would worry less about ageism, and more about working on a track where experience is valued.
If you have 20 years of experience, you need to be working for the kind of place where 20 years of experience has more value than 7 years of experience, or else you need to accept getting paid like you only have 7 years of experience. That's not ageism, that's just economics.
Another area where experience can have value: embedded systems.
If you think everything tops out at 5-7 years you are no where near correct. 5-7 years developers are still juniors who have spent time down one path and know it really well. So well that they become opinionated that this is the best way. You don't turn into a senior until your wiped that mindset away. Until you become un-opinionated you are still a junior. At 7 years I knew it alL, it took awhile to reach a point where I know nothing but I am open to all opinions and ways to do something. Once you know it all work back to an open mindset
I think you're right overall but too optimistic about timelines. I think about 10 years of experience or more is where things start to level out. Depending on how you count my experience, i'm either at ~16 or 20+. I regularly learn from people with 10 years of experience.
I don't think I can say the same about people with only 5 YoE.
I'm in my 30s. It's not so much ageism, but my employability is much lower than it was in the past. Now I have a family (higher benefit costs, less off hours support), I am not able to learn things as quickly, and I've lost a lot of motivation since past grinding never paid off.
So yeah, my age is a problem, but it's not ageism.
I have never really seen it for any developer still in the game, regardless of age. Many developers kind of check out at some point, but that isn’t ageism. Some people never lose the fire and skill is cumulative.
It used to be most programmers change to other careers within 10 years. Not sure if that's still true, but if so - I think it means most won't have to worry about being around long enough for ageism to be a problem...
> It used to be most programmers change to other careers within 10 years.
I don't think that's true, unless you are counting the more-senior roles which tended to require programming experience (e.g., Systems Analyst in many schemes) as “other careers” rather than just a step up the information systems career ladder.
Hmm - I can't find anything except anecdata atm (0) based on Stack Overflow Developer Survey 2023, but it appears that the numbers drop off pretty sharply starting at the 10-14 year mark. Wish I could find the original article I saw years ago.
Also, This(1) has to be the first time I can remember BLS predicting negative growth in the programmer job market! I always remember it being listed with decent job growth...
I think they've been negative on “programmers” for a while, but you’ve got to be careful with the BLS on software-related professions, because “programmers” are a different category than, for instance, “software developers” https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... who have a much rosier outlook.
If you read the descriptions, “programmers” are pretty limited (“They turn the designs created by software developers and engineers into instructions that a computer can follow.”)
Oh nice! that must be it then.. I don't remember seeing it negative before - thanks!
the stack overflow survey is a bit depressing though - we seem to lose everyone early... Seems like only 30% of people make it past 15 years. Which surprises me, as my circle of programming friends all have like 20+ years. Maybe thats why we keep re-inventing stuff :-/
There could be timing and similar context effects there, too; bet that looked different just before vs. 5-6 years after the dotcom crash, for instance. (Neither of those seems to be the time you are discussing, just pointing to that as an example.)
Oh - I replied above with some anecdata from stack overflow, also surprised that BLS is predicting negative job growth for programmers (first time in my life, I think)
It is not about either - it is about attitude and cost. If someone with 30 years experience demands a higher salary for the same skill level as someone with 10 years experience, and also bring in an attitude of being a know-it-all because of those extra years... they won't get hired.
There is also the old cliché that there is a difference between 10 years of experience and one year of experience repeated 10 times. If you are a coder who has repeated the same couple years of experience 10-15 times, then you might be over-estimating your own value.
So as you get older, it takes some humility to truly look at yourself and determine your own value. This is why I moved away from coding and towards product management - I'm a decent coder and people appreciate having me on the team, but my value lies in the lessons learned over the years outside of coding. So I seek roles where I can use that experience, and not the decades of coding experience on mostly dead tech stacks.
We act like 10 years of 1 or 2 years experience is the same as someone with one or two experience. Someone who has worked at that many places brings experience of different ways to do things. They also get up to speed quicker than someone with 10 years at one place.
Same company will fire someone after 3/4 years because they haven't moved up.
Ageism is inherent to the human experience. When we see a 21 year old our brain is filled with abstract visions of the future and potential. When we see a 35 year old we expect them to have completed their journeys and have a firm entrenchment in their hierarchies. Seeing a 50 year old we expect them to have experience they are passing down. Failing to meet these expectations carries an implicit discrimination that is innate.
No age, but that supposes you do networking, have soft-skills and is likeable.
The amount of opportunities available to me just grow year after year, because I get to know more people (which also move to different companies), that would like to work with me in the future.
Just be a person that ships, makes things work, in a friendly mood and you are set for life.
People you work with also grow in their careers, which means that often enough, they make the calls on who gets hired and who doesn't.
I think that during your 50s, you should have built a good "base," though, like paying off your mortgage. You should have more leeway to actually take life in a less demanding way, so perhaps do some consulting or not work full-time and earn a living to retire in peace.
> Just be a person that ships, makes things work, in a friendly mood and you are set for life.
This is the biggest lie in tech. Doing this will keep you overworked because you’re reliable. You will never get promoted and when you try to get another job you will be so good everybody will be afraid of you.
I don’t believe so, do you have a link to the thread? Would be easy to verify. In any case my comment isn’t what I personally do just what I believe the gp comment meant rather than what the comment I was replying to thought it meant.
I was asking directly about how to get more quantity but I don't think I implied anything about quality as they indicated nothing about that. Really I'm just curious about the specifics of this person's long tenure as it's not been my experience or that of most people I know regardless of individual performance but they offer us nothing other than the knowledge of their existence the implication being that ageism in the industry doesn't exist because they haven't personally been affected by it. Apologies, I should have just stated that directly.
In any area, you'll suffer "ageism" while doing this because you won't have the same energy and potential as a fresh graduate.
The problem isn't your age(ageism), but the fact that you haven't managed to truly achieve seniority.
Sure, you could have gotten your senior title within 3 years from graduating, but you don't have the soft-skills that are needed to have a longer career. This applies to any area, it is expected in nowadays society that you don't behave like you live in your moms basement as you are older.
If you behave well and is generally nice, clear and have good work ethics, there's no way people won't like you and vouch for you in new positions. Sometimes they will get promoted and will want to have people around them that have worked with them before, and will want to invite you to their company.
Meanwhile a company might be ok with a 22 year old struggling to communicate with others or keep their supervisor up-to-date, they won't have that kind of patience for a 40 year old+ that has been working for decades.
And by the way, anyone can get those skills, just study and practice like you do with coding.
> And by the way, anyone can get those skills, just study and practice like you do with coding.
Thanks, I will. The likeability problem I have is because I am constantly in a position of having to disagree with others on technical grounds. Maybe I need to find a role where that's not the case.
As a 49 year old unemployed programmer (5 years now), I _should_ have started worrying about it at 35. Didn't really see it coming TBH, but my life also got complicated in other respects.
Legally speaking, the protected class related to age in the US is 40+. Assuming that number wasn’t plucked out of the sky, I’d say that would be when you can start to worry.
As long as you’re actually competent I don’t think it would be too much of an issue. For someone who comes off as green with their skills, a company is more likely to take a gamble on someone young than someone older.
You should never be worried about it, just aware of it. In my experience, ageism is really only a serious issue in specific segments of the software industry. Outside of those, you'll be just fine.
I think it can be location and company specific too. In some cities hiring is hard to do, so they take what they can get. And some company cultures value experience and stability, others like younger devs.
My experience has been that most devs in their 40s and 50s can run circles around those in their 20s and early 30s. If someone is already good in their 20s they're likely a savant. TL;DR the biggest thing is managing your career intelligently. I think there's more risk when you approach 50, but the same is true in every industry.
