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Ask HN: Any advice on navigating this job market or pivoting out of tech? (US)
86 points by askhn234 9 months ago | hide | past | favorite | 109 comments
I'm about to finish my CS degree this May and I'm already sick of the tech industry. I'm at a loss. I know the job market could get better soon, but there's no guarantee that it will, and things are looking bad for us with less experience. There are multiple things that are demotivating me and making me feel hopeless, it's not just the constant news about layoffs.

- Based on what I've read here, in news articles, in company portals, on TeamBlind and on Reddit, outsourcing seems popular again. Seniors who comment online are quick to scoff at this, claiming that companies doing this are shooting themselves in the foot, and that they'll regret it just like last time. But here's the thing - even if the seniors are right, I need a job when I graduate. I'll need to pay my student loans. I need to pay the rent. I can't just wait a few years for things to hopefully get better.

- AI appears to be a real threat specifically for juniors. This idea used to be met with ridicule, but it seems obvious now. GPT-4 and Gemini Pro are already impressive, but just imagine the improvements in a year or two. Sure, this doesn't necessarily mean it'll kill programming, it's possible that this is just the next step after high level programming languages, but it still represents a threat to entry level developers like me.

- Perhaps this is less important now (I'd take any job at this point), but I've gradually lost interest in the only domain I have any real-world experience in, full-stack web development. I have been strongly considering switching to game development, despite the industry's reputation, but now I don't know if I can handle an even more cutthroat, competitive job market.

- Freelance work is an option I guess, but for someone like me it seems impossible. I only have a year of dev experience (including internship). I don't have a network. My sales skills are terrible.

- I am absolutely sick of the job search grind. I went through it in 2021-22 when things were "better", I don't want to deal with it again now that even experienced devs are struggling.

What are my alternatives? What other career can I pivot to once I get my CS degree? So far, I've thought about translating (I'm bilingual)

P.S. Please don't tell me to stop worrying and "doomscrolling". I already tried that a while ago and it didn't help, the uncertainty is still there, my interest in webdev is still dead and the job market is still bad.




The thing missing from this post is any sense of whether you have talent and interest in programming. The closest you come is to say you've "gradually lost interest in [...] full-stack web development", but even there you use the language "only domain I have any real-world experience in". It's pretty clear the problem here is job search anxiety. Hey, I don't blame you, I started my software career in the summer of 2000, so I can relate to the doom and gloom.

The thing to remember is that your success is not primarily determined by macroeconomic trends. Sure some industries are clearly on a downward slope and you wouldn't want to start a career there, but tech is not one of them. Software is still eating the world, and yes AI will change it, code may go away, etc, but ultimately understanding and solving problems in complex systems is going to stay an incredibly valued skill for the foreseeable future.

So, are you any good at programming? If so, and it doesn't feel like pulling teeth, then I think you probably have more upside there. If not, and you want something stable and reliable over time, maybe consider the trades. Whatever you do though, understand all career success is based on being able to solve problems, and have the person with the money recognizing that you can provide an above average solution. The best path to this is get a job, any job, learn to do it exceptionally well, and make sure in your first 10-15 years you are continually learning and growing, and building good relationships with the people you work with. If you keep doing that serendipity will find you. No amount of pre-planning or strategizing is a substitute.


One option would be to land a steady, secure and simple job like a refuse worker.

I know it might sound ridiculous for someone graduating with a CS degree but it could work to your benefit -- especially if you're feeling burnt out and unsure about your field/focus. A friend of mine drives a garbage truck in a small town and works 3-4 hours per day: as long as it takes to do the route and empty the truck. He's got great health insurance, a 401K and a union. While I make more running a software consultancy, I have none of these benefits and am way more exposed to market fluctuation (like right now). You could spend your afternoons doing research, working on FLOSS, doing freelance dev gigs, etc.


Ah, good suggestion!


Assuming you did the course work and passed your classes, I'm guessing you're feeling some serious imposter syndrome. Many people get jobs after going to a 3-6 month coding bootcamp, and you just spent 3-4 years learning and letting all that knowledge slowly sink in.

GPT4 isn't doing the architecting, planning, understanding priorities, what should be built first and how, according to company needs and your own or your teams abilities.

If you understand what you're doing and are willing to work hard, you've got a valuable skillset- likely more than you realize.


Game industry is going through huge cuts right now[1][2] after a covid/free money boom over the last few years and stagnant revenue growth now.

If you end up staying in this field, one very valuable piece of advice is use your free time, while looking for work, to prepare for interviews and specifically leetcode and other interviewing processes you're likely to face. It's basically standard operating procedure right now for both big and small companies. Look online at tech interview guides. If you're in the US, when hiring picks up again, it's probably the single best chance to financial well being, getting into one of the cushy tech jobs.

[1]: https://gamecraftpod.com/podcast/episode-02/ [2]: https://www.matthewball.co/all/gaming2024


Few counterpoints:

* AI is better for juniors than seniors. It doesn't do legwork; it just provides knowledge.

* Blind is a toxic hellscape and redditors are broadly pretty dim.

Plausibly AI is a problem for your employment in like ~2 years; so I'd speedrun into SWE somewhere where you can make as much use of AI as possible (e.g. ask about whether the firm allows copilot, etc). There's no better industry to be in that tech for the next five years; ignore the noise.


> AI is better for juniors than seniors. It doesn't do legwork; it just provides knowledge.

no, that is exactly the opposite of true, AI is brilliant at boilerplate and finding relevance if you know the right terms, just like search engines, it makes your existing knowledge more useful but it definitely does not provide knowledge.

you have to be able to fully comprehend the right answer with AI for it to be useful..


Not to mention hallucinations/ wrong answers. If your mental compiler / familiarity with referenced libs is the same as reading, you can respond "no xyz doesn't make sense / doesn't exist etc"

Having to incorporate an execution / compilation / test loop is going to slow that way down


I don't totally agree. As you ask it more specialized and high level questions that may be true, but for beginner level stuff AI is very helpful since there is quite a lot it is based on.


> * Blind is a toxic hellscape and redditors are broadly pretty dim.

Reddit is, at this point, a literal mirror held up to reality.

Everything you read there isn't happening.

Maybe people want it to happen and think if they spam it enough times people will believe it is happening and report that it is happening, but it isn't.

If you read something on reddit, believe the opposite.


I don’t disagree with this, but when did this happen? About a decade ago I remember Reddit being pretty decent. Did Reddit change or did I change?


It's progressively gotten worse, but the point for me was when they removed access for third party apps. Many people who contributed meaningfully left in protest.


and they're licensing it for LLM training purposes. It'll only make the LLM output even less trustworthy.

https://arstechnica.com/ai/2024/02/reddit-has-already-booked...


The comments were delusionally disparate from reality for a long time before that.

Reddit always leant left, but pre... idk, 2014 you could imagine the conversations you read on there occurring with someone you might conceivably meet in real life, even if they would be a bit of an outlier.

After that, no chance - everyone on there had the personality of a delusionally dug-in activist, the type of person you'd instinctively flee from if you met on the street. And the level of bullying you'd encounter if you went against 'the narrative' went up by a huge factor, as in, instant bans in just about every subreddit, 'if you're not on this side of the issue you're supporting genocide, this is a fact not an opinion' type of interactions. Then reddit updated their blocking system so that blocking someone cut _them_ off from contributing further, which basically made every user a mini-moderator, which was (and is) of course massively abused.

The place is long overdue to go under; offlining it would remove about 50% of the overall negativity from the internet, and considering it's such a small space compared with FB/Twitter that's really saying something.


> everyone on there had the personality of a delusionally dug-in activist

I question the credibility of people that use broad hyperbolic generalizations like this.


I am definitely incredible.


Ah yes, the leftists who posted in fatpeoplehate, jailbait, theDonald, and all the gamergate subs.


Ha. A decade and a half ago I remember the community similar to today. Some people are helpful, some people aren't. Some people are decent and some people aren't. And those two groups often don't overlap.

The platform itself is a much worse experience though.


Everything on the internet has been seriously enshittified over the prior decade. It isn't just you nor just Reddit.


It’s the same here as well. Everything you read about tech is wishful thinking.


There's a lot of very weird optimism here for technologies that are VISIBLY making the world worse or aren't appropriate for the use case.

So many comments praising Discord in the 'why you shouldn't use Discord for FOSS' thread, all of which were basically 'yeah you should use it; it's cool and has a great UI' and zero substantial discussion of how it meets the needs of a support platform (because it doesn't, the searchability and retrievability is terrible.)


Why not try working for local government. Around here those jobs are secure and have pensions.

I've also been broke and financially insecure and it will better once you can pay your bills even if it's not your fave. Go for whatever your experience is for the first job.


When I was growing up in my career, private sector jobs were considered much better than government jobs. I feel the private sector has been squeezed so hard the last 20+ years that public sector jobs are on par with private sector jobs and sometimes better. Most government jobs also have a pension, so once you work there 20 years or so, you can go find other work while collecting your pension.

If you have or can get a security clearance, you've just removed a bunch of competition.


If you think the current market is bad pivoting into the game industry is not the direction I would go.

The baseline for that industry is... bad and the latest round(s) of layoffs in that industry has made it worse.


Also the pattern as I understand it is game companies work devs to death then let them go once the release is out. The advantage game companies have is people tend to like games therefore there are a lot more people who are interested or default to game development.


Yeah from what I can see, the games industry is going through what the broader tech industry is, just dialled up to eleven. People are being laid off left, right and centre (especially from larger companies), companies are shutting down after years in business and both pay and working conditions are signficiantly worse than they are in every other form of software engineering.


I think the biggest asset for anyone (not you in particular) switching careers will be humility. Go into a new career will an earnest will to learn, go through the initiation, listen to seniors, take feedback and criticism (presented both well and poorly) without your ego going in the way, for at least 3-5 years.

Hate to say it, most of the software devs I know are pretty dammed high on their horses and it’s a bit obnoxious.


Your answer is predicated on the ability to get into said career.

Do many jobs list "humility" as a qualification they are looking for?

[Edit]

As a primary qualification, and not a company value or whatever.


The good workplaces do. Low ego, high skill is a common refrain.


In my experience, the workplaces that talk about "humility" are actually the worse environments. It basically translates to "know your place, peasant". Be highly skilled, but never question what you're asked to do, always show reverence for those above you in the hierarchy, etc.

I don't want "humble" coworkers, I want confident coworkers, who also happen to be reasonable and cooperative. I especially want them to be able to confidently state their opinions, without fear that they'll be targeted for "not being humble", even if they're willing to change those opinions based on a discussion with the team.


that is what the interview is for


If you feel this way about tech now, you probably picked the wrong field. It's a really exciting time if you're actually interested in this stuff.

If you want an AI-resistant job, look at the trades (plumbers, electricians, etc.). There's a huge shortage, the pay is good, and it will be a while before robots are dexterous enough to have an impact there.

Don't bother with translating. It's already being impacted.


Random personal opinion: get a masters degree, researching computer vision or NLP, or something that hedges you against AI. Or if you are inclined, do a PhD.

Also you sounds like you are a bit burned out. Translating sounds even much more AI-replacable than CS -- don't do that if you fear CS.

(Also Blind is toxic albeit informational! Call up some people. Ask me; or ask HN or some less negative places for how the industry is looking.)


Anyone entering graduate work in AI now is likely going to be entering a market with a glut of similar graduates in 2-4 years.


Good point, and my original opinion should at least have what you said as fine print. Personally, I am finishing up a PhD in CS. When I started my PhD, deep learning had already been all the craze but I chose another subfield -- that did not pan out so well. Hence, I still think AI (maybe AI + X) is a good choice in general.


This is a huge bet and it's going to further increase their student debt. If it doesn't pay off, they'll be much worse off than just moving back home with their parents and trying to say, start a business or freelance.


> it's going to further increase their student debt

Never accept a PhD position that you need to pay for (beyond opportunity costs). A PhD position should pay you.


The soundness of the advice depends on the person's specific situation. I've known a person who benefitted from a Master's as the degree gave the person access to certain internships, which helped the person break into a specific field that would've been difficult to enter otherwise.

Another person who earned a Master's found it easier to get a work visa working in a foreign country with a better market for that person's field.

However, each of these people had a specific goal in mind with getting their Master's. The person who asked advice could also find it helpful to only consider a Master's if they also have a specific outcome in mind, served directly by pursuing the degree.


Agreed. Getting a Master's should be part of a well defined plan, not a "I don't what else to do and the economy is bad so I should stay in school for a few more years to pass the time" deal.


Better option: learn it on your own. Pick up a side project, take a course, make mistakes and within a year you’ll have enough skills to be dangerous


If you pay for a masters or pHD you have done something incredibly wrong.


Is this really always true? Even with short one year masters programs? I’ve been told this bit of advice quite a few times. My university offers a one year CS masters and I’ve considered it but there’s zero opportunity for an assistantship for the one year programs (as far as I know) so I’d be paying or hoping to find a company to sponsor it/get grant money to cover it.


>Also you sounds like you are a bit burned out. Translating sounds even much more AI-replacable than CS -- don't do that if you fear CS.

Sorry, I accidentally removed the last part of that sentence. It was supposed to say this:

    So far, I've thought about translating (I'm bilingual) and technical writing. AI is already quite good at both of those, and Duolingo just replaced most of its translation staff with AI.
Thanks for the reply.


Just to reinforce what you and others said: Translation work has indeed been impacted significantly by AI and will be even more so as LLMs, tooling, and workflows improve further.

That said, translation is also like programming in that it seems to be the junior translators who are most impacted. Newbie translators’ job is often just to take any text they are given and render it into another language, with little or no control about the choice of text or its content and with little or no interaction with the client. AI can do that pretty well now, and much more quickly and cheaply than any human.

The human translators who are surviving are those who spend less time translating words on a screen than they do learning their clients’ needs, helping their clients navigate the subtleties of interlingual and intercultural communication, and advising their clients on how to adapt their content to meet the needs of their target readership. I don’t know if there are many entry-level jobs available now with such responsibilities, but that’s what I would be looking for, not for what has traditionally been called “translation.”

My thoughts on this topic from a year ago can be found on my website, linked from my profile.


Btw, totally unsolicited advice, but please take care of yourself. You sound like you have quite some decisions to dwell on, and correct decisions are much harder in moments of hopelessness.

If you feel hopeless, we (at least me, and HN in general) are here to help besides other resources.


I'm in similar boat. But I love CS and it seems easy for me.

But I butchered myself (meaning no substantial skills on paper) so I am unhireable. People don't even look at my resume. Deactivated LinkedIn because it was causing harm than good.

That's it!


I can only speak from my experience of losing my job during the dot com crash. The market was flooded with people and the opportunities were slim.

I was actually in a very senior position before and I ended up in a much more junior one, as that was all I could find. It was depressing as hell at the time. I spent some time doing another degree in a related field while in the junior role.

But, as ever, things picked up, and went on to exceed anything that had come before. Now, that doesn't mean this will happen exactly the same way this time round.

I can't tell from your post if you were doing a CS degree because you really like it or just saw it as a ticket to a high earning job. What I would say is try to find work in something you fundamentally like. You might find it hard initially, and finding exactly the right role might not just fall into your lap.

Perseverance is what makes the difference in the long term, and that's hard if you don't like the thing you're doing.


You need to do some soul searching (or, I like punk rock, "you've got soul doubt", to quote Fat Mike)...

Are you just nervous because of the news you are reading

OR

    "my interest in webdev is still dead"
Have you gone through your college career and you realized you do not like CS?

You need to answer this question first. Then you have the answer... if you love CS, the the job will come. Forget what you are reading and pretend this job hunt is another algorithms or operating systems class that you need to bust your ass at and pass.

If on the the other hand the flame is dead, you are getting separated and moving on to another field, well then, there is your other answer. Pretend that is another kind of problem that you have to solve and go solve it. You just went through years of problem solving school, go do it.

-- Full disclosure: not trying to be mean, just trying to boil it down to simplest "if A then B" parts.


I think I do like CS, but dislike the domain I'm in. I think webdev is pretty boring, both frontend and backend. So this recent shift in the job market makes me think "So I have to go through the applying/interview grind again, this time with much fiercer competition, all for a job I won't even like?"

I have always found game development more appealing (tools programming, game design and gameplay programming in particular), but chose to not go for that path, fearing that I wouldn't be able to handle such a notoriously cutthroat industry. I know that it sounds like I threw in the towel there without even trying, but for a long time I had a terrible, painful chronic condition, and it was only recently that I became closer to normal after years of trial and error with different treatments. This condition made me always strive for the "easier" path (webdev), which was a big mistake in retrospect.

To be completely honest, CS is definitely not my biggest passion, but it's the next best thing. From early on in my childhood dream was music and storytelling, always. My dad was strongly opposed to me pursuing it as anything other than a hobby. I think he was right, and I'm still glad he stopped me from enrolling in music school (twice...).

Sorry, I'm just kind of rambling about personal stuff here, but your comment made me think a lot. Thanks for the reply.


You remind me a bit of myself. I work in web development now, but took some games classes in college and thought I might go that route for a time. My true passion has always been poetry. Here's my advice. Don't look for fulfillment from your job. It pays the bills, and if you don't hate it, consider that a blessing. Find something that occupies you only from 9 to 5 (plenty of web dev jobs like that), and use your free time to pursue the the music and storytelling that you really love. You would stop loving them if you had to do them for money. Might actually be better to do something that you don't love for money. I know this is the opposite of what they say at school, but it's what I find in my own career. You can't hate it, but it may be better not to love it too much. Best of luck.


Have you considered doing webdev for a business in the entertainment industry? Anything from small organizations You' to large like Disney. You wouldn't get paid the big FAANG bucks but you'd be able to make a living off your education while remaining connected to your other passion.


> "my interest in webdev is still dead" > Have you gone through your college career and you realized you do not like CS?

The Venn diagram of “web development” and “computer science” is two separate circles.


Wow, ivory tower treating you well I guess?

[Edit]

I apologize for my swipe.


No? Web Dev and Com Sci are incredibly different topics.


He said they are a venn diagram with no overlap.

I feel like that fact they both use computer programming negates that argument.


Computer programming doesn’t mean computer science.


Good thing I said comp sci includes programming, and not the other way around.

Feel free to enlighten us as to what comp sci and Web dev are, and why they share nothing in common. Please.


Science is where you measure, analyze, and develop theories. Computer science in particular is about the design of algorithms and systems for their implementation, such as compilers and interpreters.

Programming is a means of operating computer systems. Sometimes you have to operate computers to do computer science, but not always (for example algorithm design is very mathematical.)

there is meaningful overlap, certainly

and also, not all programming is science, certainly


The overlap is minimal. 99.99% of web dev requires no computing, no science, no math.


Yes. Web developers never tackle with caching, database query optimisation, protocol development, or data modelling.

Just HTML and CSS and nothing else.


You can say the same about a lot of SWD roles, even the ones considered "harder".


By not being a professional and in the industry yet, your not really in a position to make a judgement about how things are. So your source of information about your fears of outsourcing and AI/LLMs is based on second hand information. If its Blind and reddit, its from other uninformed people, or immigrants who have it particularity hard in the US.

Any job search in any career is going to be a grind. In some twisted way you could even think that tech is better, at least you don't need to dress to impress and tech interviews can be a little more objective.

Re webdev: Your coming out of school, your junior and a blank slate. You don't really have a specialty, you can work towards whatever comes your way.

Honestly, get off the internet,(whats your screen time?), get some hobbies, drop the idea that you really know how the industry is.

The job search sucks, you'll feel a lot better when you get your first check.


You need to look to work through a recruiting agency.

You work for that recruiting agency, they find you interviews, you pass and get a job, you work, client pays them money, they take their cut, the rest goes to you.

Write me an email to this address

temp.dl9bv@simplelogin.com

and I will send you the name of the company that got me into the field.

I recently got a call from a recruiter from that company saying there were a lot of layoffs and they are looking for past employees to fill in positions. So there is work, you just have to know where to look.

Companies don’t hire directly. Companies hire through recruiting agencies, and often there can be more than 1 recruiting agency in between. For 2 jobs that I worked there were 2 recruiting agencies between me and the final client.


Stop worrying and doomscrolling

Uncertainty is natural. The Web Dev boom is a random artificial boom. Most other STEM jobs pay in the 60-90K range depending how good your grades are.

So yeah, you probably wont get a FANNG job, but you can easily get a job that will keep you alive.


"AI appears to be a real threat specifically for juniors"

The threat to students isn't that their jobs will be replaced. The real threat is that they are relying on these technologies to do their work for them rather than learning the concepts and material. I don't know that many college students these days, but the ones I do know describe a culture of just having ChatGPT write your essay, run it through a plagiarism checker, and hand it in.


Firstly, do you enjoy tech? As in do you code and build things outside of what's required for education and work?

People in this industry tend to be very passionate about what they do and the industry moves very quickly. It's not a great industry for someone who just wants to spend 3 years learning then wants to go on to land a nice job. It's really requires having a love for building things and continuing to learn as new technologies emerge.

I know a lot of people who got a CS degree thinking working in tech would be fun, but just didn't have the passion for it to compete professionally. And as you're seeing it's even harder today.

If you're passionate and you're able to commit your spare time to learning, then I'd suggest you first get a job with some vague tech focus. Maybe work in an Apple store or a computer repair shop or something... This will look better on your profile than doing nothing or something entirely unrelated to tech.

Then while you're earning an income you should be applying to tech roles, and ideally asking people if they'd be willing to take you on for minimum wage. Even if it's just the odd project for a bit of cash, that's still very useful experience.

After a couple of years of this crap you'll be in a much better place to land a role, but you need to appreciate there's loads of people with junior coding skills out there. You need to set yourself apart and that largely requires doing what other people will not because you care enough about working in tech.

If you don't care about working in tech but just want to make decent money, become a truck driver or something. It will probably be much easier.


For the sake of stability and sanity examine the institutions of your career. If professionalism is absent then quickly run away because the job will consume you while your peers, and possibly you, focus almost exclusively on self-serving qualities not related to product quality. The result is toxic and those that cannot see the toxicity lack the maturity for anything better.

For an excellent definition of profession see the Army’s definition: https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN18529-ADP_6-...

What you can do is be proactive and prepared. Here are some suggestions:

1. Have a back up career that can become your full time career. I once knew a developer that dreamed of being in the games industry and spent his time working on animation and 3D modeling. He now does that full time. In my case I am in the Army Reserves and at my next promotion I could choose to do that full time and still make as much as a senior software engineer.

2. Expand your education. Get a masters degree. Focus on how to write and perform research in addition to advanced programming.

3. Get professional licenses and certifications. These will not make you a better developer but they will demonstrate you can do things other developers cannot.

4. Contribute to professional publications or professional organizations. These also double as the best means of achieving new employment via offline social networking.


The job hunt process sucks. Do you like software engineering? If so look for jobs at smaller shops in areas you are interested in. Networking may be needed. Things are way more stupid than they were 10+ years ago. Everyone seems to think the FAANG interview process is the cats meow. But if you can connect with someone at a company you are interested in that can help.

Freelancing could be an option, but a track record helps.

Honestly, look at old school options like craigslist and find options.


You mentioned being bilingual. What language do you speak besides English?

As you mentioned, outsourcing is popular again. If you speak a language that's popular in outsourced countries then you bring an interesting skillset with you in that you can help bridge communication gaps between North America and overseas. Maybe you can find something in that space where you combo programming and product owner with multi-lingual capabilities.


I finished a programming type school (way before online bootcamps) right at the height of dotcom bubble. Few months later there were no jobs and tech was dead everyone said.

Couple years after bubble and 9/11 landed first job.

Then MS started touting outsourcing to india as the next big thing. Tech was dead everyone said.

Then 2008 great recession. Tech was dead everyone said.

Now AI. Tech is dead everyone says.

From my first job in early 2000's to today I was unemployed for exactly 2 weeks.

Just sayin.


Maybe look at hard tech companies?

There are plenty of teams out there that even modest software skills would dramatically improve!

As was previously mentioned, consider your other interests and strengths (even outside of CS). What companies would benefit from those skills and motivation?

Academia has a completely different framework for dividing folks up by teaching discipline rather than job occupation. You'd be surprised how your existing might fit a job role that isn't traditionally a direct fit from CS discipline.

For example, in operational roles, organization and communication skills are impactful, or business process analyst type stuff, where understanding systems and how sw tools are built around them could be a good place to start.

Hopefully this is helpful!

Ps hang in there, we all find our way!


Couple things:

1) if your interest in web dev is dead, then what do you have interest in?

2) what are your standards for a job?

3) if someone told you that “ok this college degree was a waste” how would you respond?

There’s no magic bullet, but knowing the answer to these can help you feel empowered to navigate the job search process


Answer for 3.

It is a waste. I graduated 5 years ago. Joined Master hoping something good would happen. Learnt a few things here and there. Now I am in objectively bad position where I ruined my family relationship, ruined health and ruined most of the things.

Life just sucks and everything is gray.


Unfortunately, you should know scientific fact, that from nature, people divided to three groups:

1. Tech/scientific people (mathematics/physics/etc).

2. Art people (extraordinary good with texts and/or graphics/drawing).

3. Cognitive people or entrepreneurs (Tommy from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snatch_(film)

In your age you should already see hints, where are you mostly talent, and could choose appropriate way (yes, all ways divided to three largest groups, anywhere need tech personnel, arts and managers, but all these three learn different way).


Yeah since most app dev inevitably involves some web dev I don't see that going away.

Also since so many people in web dev only know web dev (and they're usually not great at it), your skills otherwise will make you the stronger candidate. You can ask for a much higher salary in a tech lead or architect role and it may only take a few years to get there depending on the organization.

If you have passion for your work there's still plenty of opportunity and things are recovering, not regressing.

The big bad copypasta monster (AI) is not a threat in the slightest for anyone with a CS degree, but especially if you're willing to get closer to business needs and further away from implementation details.


With a CS degree you are well-positioned to get a job making good money after graduating. CS is still a good career, where you can work sane hours, with low stress, and get paid to think and solve and problems.

The current economic climate means it may mean a longer job search or worse job options, but getting any job with regular coding will be huge deal as the work experience will open many doors further down the line.

You already invested 4 years in training. You are qualified for a great many jobs. Unless you truly dislike the work itself, my advice is to stay the course.


Get an office admin temp job where they use a lot of Excel? They’ll think you are a genius.


Hello, first of all you have my sympathies and I share your opinion that the 'tech' job market is seeming less appealing to new graduates for a variety of objective/measurable reasons you've mentioned. I also think your self-described lack of interest is sufficient cause to seek other careers and the previous justifications may be worth not focusing on too much... The world has more interconnected opportunity now than ever before and even if you don't do full-stack web development ever again I am sure your computer skills are valuable in very many domains.

I finished college 8 years ago and have been coding since. I still code, but I have just begun tutoring/teaching Adult Education classes for a Service-worker Union (Search for SEIU + <your_locale>) and have found the work to be fulfilling, flexible (fully remote), and pay surprisingly well (over $50/hr entry). In my limited experience there is great demand from this somewhat hidden (but growing!) demographic of multi-year-industry-specific professionals seeking to upgrade their career flexibility through education. Digital literacy is a subject us programmers take largely for granted that has nearly constant over-subscribed classes in my branch, and one of the first questions I was asked by a much-adored veteran teacher when observing their science/math TEAS prep class was 'How's your Google-fu?' I felt right at home...

Part of the reason I got into CS was because I had a diverse range of interests and somehow computers seemed to power the foundations for interacting with and connecting the vast majority of them. If you've got similar motivations I think you'll enjoy the wide range of challenges that teaching adults offers. Fwiw, I think most folks in the world face professionally uncertain times ahead but at least we can understand enough to try and make the most of the inevitable instead of squandering precious energy...

I hope my perspective offers you some assistance, and I thank you for sharing. I know a lot of people (both your age and older) have similar feelings.

PS English Literacy classes in my branch are also heavily oversubscribed, and with bilingualism you might be a marvelously effective teacher in that meaningful domain as well.


I wouldn't count yourself out just because you are a junior. Companies love hiring junior devs because their salaries are the lowest. It's senior devs that should be worried.

I've yet to see any programming jobs replaced due to AI. Writing code is only half the job; understanding a company's existing tech stack, API's, internal struggles, business needs, etc, and figuring out how to implement what the business wants are all important. AI will still have a hard time with these things for a while yet.


>I wouldn't count yourself out just because you are a junior. Companies love hiring junior devs because their salaries are the lowest. It's senior devs that should be worried.

This sounds right but it isn't, at least in my experience. Most fresh junior devs need a whole lot of hand holding to get even the basic stuff done; particularly in a codebase that isn't that great. There are some junior devs that are just natural stars, but they are few and far between.


Pick any industry and this environment we’re experiencing in “CS” is going to occur 3 or 4 times in your working years. No matter if you’re an electrician or a software developer.

Do you like building software? Based on your post I get a feeling (which may be wrong) you’re looking for the $$.

If you like it, stay with it and keep studying. It will pay off.

(Edit: my experience) I left college and started out writing COBOL. Several dot com busts later and I was lucky enough to lead several SaaS teams and have wonderful exits.


Any tips on building a time machine and reliving ZIRP? /s

I'm not as pessimistic as OP, but I do have to wonder if I squandered my few years of ZIRP and if there will ever be another such period.


Not here to give advice, but always hiring and willing to grab virtual coffee if you want to talk about the market or networking. Info is in my bio.


Well, translating is the first thing on the AI chopping block. Even if it still viable, doubt it pays as well as entry level software jobs.

Election years are always terrible for the job market.

Why not pivot into AI development. The market is hot for this. Get any entry level job in it.

You are not supposed to make bank, this early in your career. It is all about working for companies that will give you the most skills. The foundation to build on.


Translating freelancing jobs went down by almost 20% on Upwork since ChatGpT got released, so yeah.. translating isn’t a better option https://bloomberry.com/i-analyzed-5m-freelancing-jobs-to-see...


You got the skills , companthemselves don’t know where the future is and is acting out in panic. The coding and marathon interview is only an indication of how toxic their workspace is. Not that you are suitable or eligible to get that work

Research what you can build, get with others and start a business for others are stuck with their toxic ways and you can reach any goal you want


It isn't that bad. Look at the Nasdaq after the dotcom bust:

2000 -36.84%

2001 -32.65%

2002 -37.58%

If you think now is bad imagine trying to get a job in 2002 in tech. Tech was deader than dead.

This is just a normal job market now. You went to college but you don't know shit or have any experience. It sucks but you have to grind and eventually opportunity will find you, you just have to not squander it when it does.

Opportunity will find you in ways and in things you won't even expect.

The reason you should not worry is because you are young and have all the time in the world. If it takes 5 years so what? I would gladly trade my account balances to be young and fresh out of college right now. Figuring out how to become not broke after college is the most fun game of your entire life. The more it wears on you and gets you down the better the payoff feels.


>If you think now is bad imagine trying to get a job in 2002 in tech. Tech was deader than dead.

After 6 months of unemployment (with 4 years experience) I had to move to another city to find work and it was definitely a pay downgrade. As you remember not only did the dot bomb happen but shortly after: 9/11. This was also when outsourcing really started to take off. Prospects were certainly grim. Fortunately I landed a job with a codebase that needed a lot of help but was very cool. I learned a lot and proved to myself that I was a lot better than I thought I was.

>Figuring out how to become not broke after college is the most fun game of your entire life.

Lol I'm not sure I ever felt that way. I wouldn't want to do that again in a million years. Certainly one of the most stressful times of my life.


You can mostly likely land short term agency contracts right out of school. They don’t have the same benefits or prestige as FTE but it is a real job and many immigrants take them very seriously. If you can handle doing this for a few years you will certainly land an internal FTE eventually. Don’t give up, you have a good thing going.


Trade skills are a possibility. Plumber, electrician, etc.

Also remember that the people here self-selected, so try not to take anything personally.

[Edit]

"In my experience," "You must be doomscrolling" thinking they know you better than you do, straight up insults; all the classics.


It seems like you found all the reasons you wanted to give up before even trying.


Me too. Seems to be a trend among us, the new generation. Everything looks bleak.


In tough times a Jr person can be more attractive to companies because they are a fraction of the cost. Also, don't underestimate how much these layoffs are companies just dumping thier overpaid bloat.


Get a job where you can use your programming skills to automate most of job, think finance or accounting. Then, you'll have free time to study up on something else and move up the career ladder.


> my interest in webdev is still dead and the job market is still bad. > I am absolutely sick of the job search grind.

Sounds like you aren't cut out for a job, so start a company.

Make software people want and build a company around it. I've done that five times, and the first time I was a sophomore in college. Turn your knowledge and education into money. Find a business person who has a problem you can fix. See if others have that problem. Make an app that solves it and ask your first customer to refer you to friends. Pretty soon, you'll have made a great job for yourself, and probably make enough to hire another student developer to help you build.

You probably won't become a billionaire doing this, but you'll make good money and most importantly, learn a lot in the process you can use to do it bigger and better next time.


I have 15 years of experience and nobody wants to hire me. This is also your most likely future in tech.

It was a scam.


And yet here you are trending on Hacker News. I think you'll do just fine.


Consider the military if you are a US citizen. Officer school if you have a degree.


Well... my opinion is that you're right. I've been in the industry (without a degree and not in the US) for roughly 12 years in some capacity or another, with numerous gaps of a full year or more when some company has decided to lay me off and every other company can only make decisions with 6 inane interviews before deciding not to offer me anything. It's a soul-crushing idiotic grind that's burnt me out completely at least 3 times, to which I eventually had to take a menial job before eventually finding myself back in programming. This time... it doesn't seem like it's just a matter of not landing a job, it's that there aren't any. I'm not getting any calls, no interviews, there's almost literally no listings at all, and I haven't worked in nearly a year. I don't need reddit or blind to tell me that things are fucked.

So, I'm gradually working on a small independent side project, and will attempt to build up some contracts, but I think it'll be to trade school soon. I have no idea if any of them will turn out successfully, but the market is dead and it's time to adapt and probably move on. Maybe interest rates drop and things change or we get incredibly lucky, but it's better to have some real skills anyway.


I went through the same situation in 2001.

I finished my degree and the job I had lined up with Intel fell through.

I spent the summer building up new skills.

Found a contract gig first. It is easier to find a job when you have one.

This allowed me to bide some time the I found a better gig from there.

You can doomscroll all your want. But if you want to find a job, focus on networking and marketing yourself.


About 16 years ago, some of us in Tech graduated and started our careers during one of the greatest financial collapses (2008/2009). Yes, the market will always have ups and downs, but you choose Tech for a reason. Hopefully, you have some love for this industry. You haven't started your career yet, but if I was in your shoes pinpoint an exciting area you want to go into and dive-in from the bottom. I think I started my career doing some XML/HTML formatting back in the day. The pay was meh, but it gave me so many eye-opening experiences about all the available areas, from design, content management, programming, project management, etc... Get work or freelance, do something that creates value, and start somewhere. The market will always go up and down, but the best thing that no one can take away from you is your experience, know-how, and the expertise you develop within yourself.


My main advice would be to appreciate the position you're in. You have a CS degree, which while it has been devalued is still one of the most valuable degrees. You have options which most don't.

My next piece of advice is to adjust your expectations for what a good job is. When I graduated I was burnt out and had an unrealistic expectation of what work entails. I dreamed of following a passion, which was already pretty vague for me. After a few years passion jobs become regular jobs. There's a video on YouTube [1] that might ground you. Programming jobs are great all things considered because at root the supply demand mechanics are more favorable than for most jobs, even now.

My last piece of advice is to not pivot and stick with it. When I started college after the dot com crash everyone said programming as a career was dead, it was all going to be outsourced. Then when I graduated after a master's in 2008 the job market was awful. I persisted and it's worked out. (I like the work and like solving problems. To be paid well to do work you enjoy is like winning the life lottery.) The market will recover, programming will be hot again, and frankly after all these years the predictions of doom just seem like wishcasting from people who resent those who are able to program.

Welcome to adulthood, it's not easy. There are rough patches. You need to work through them, and this patch is not even that rough compared to the slog other less fortunate people have to go through every day of their working life.

You have a great opportunity ahead of you. This is just a setback.

[1] https://youtu.be/4hiVQf9MPzg


You are sick of the tech industry already?

Well, no offense, but you aren’t in the industry yet. And if you really are sick of it, maybe you should invest in your long term happiness and do literally anything else for a career. Money isn’t worth being miserable.


Finance


[flagged]


The classic "make a new account to insult people" - stand up behavior that violates no guidelines, surely.


Stay at uni and get another degree.


You really should stop doomscrolling though. Reddit and Blind are terrible sources of information. Compilers didn't decrease the number of programming positions available.

In any case, pick your struggle. Decide whether you want to be well-off and bored, or something else.

You're likely in a lot of student debt after uni, and even though job market is harder, there are still jobs available. If you switch fields, you would likely be competing against much better prepared candidates with more experience.

My advice would be to get a job in SWE and decide once you're in a better position than jobless with no experience.


Agree with this. There are also still lots of companies hiring CS grads. They just aren't paying FAANG level comps. Kind of strange to hear people say they're going to pivot into being a garbage man if they can't get the $200k+ TC straight out of school.


Being a developer for $80K+bonus is a lot better than $16.50 per hour for being a translator... although I've interviewed a few recent grads that had so much debt the first $60K/year they made would be vaporized by paying the loan.




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