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Ask HN: Should I try to manufacture toasters?
233 points by Dig1t 10 months ago | hide | past | favorite | 445 comments
I have been looking at starting a business and am a Software Engineer with lots of experience.

I also love learning about mechanical engineering and manufacturing, but have never actually tried making anything.

Lately I have been interested in buying things that are made in the USA. One household item that I would like to buy is a toaster; I did a lot of searching online and this seems to be something that has a decent amount of demand.

Here is an example: https://www.usalovelist.com/toasters-made-in-the-usa/

>The made in USA item that we hear readers are looking for the most is the toaster. In fact, ‘Toasters made in the USA” is such a frequently used search term that there are many articles out on the internet filled with false in information, just to capture this search traffic.

There does seem to be a market opportunity for a nice quality toaster made in the USA.

My question is: as a software engineer with 0 experience building physical things, should I try building this? I have plenty of space to set up a small operation and a little capital to get started building. What are the pitfalls? Has anyone with a software background moved into manufacturing physical items like this?

Also: is anyone interested in building this with me?




I married into toaster moguls. When they sold out in '97, domestic toasters had been infeasible for years already. And this was for a company where all the knowledge, equipment, and facilities had beed paid for many decades before. (They invented the electric pop-up toaster for certain definitions of electric pop-up toaster.)

Toasters are refined brilliance, if done right. The concept of "done" is computed using an analog computer programmed by human experts. (Ok, its usually a bimetal strip but it is placed so that the cooling of the moist bread keeps it from going off and your lighter-darker input is biasing when it considers the toast done.)

Tear apart some toasters. There won't be anything in a modern cheap toaster that isn't absolutely required. Ask yourself why everything is the way it is.

Research the UL requirements. I have the corporate 2 pound copper ball that had to be dropped on things from prescribed heights and not cause malfunction. Make sure you can hit this targets with what you think you can build. Also check the CE, they might have more modern rules.

Be ready for litigation. Toasters catch fire. The toaster moguls were horrified whenever they saw someone's toaster under a cabinet. Decades after selling the business they were still being sued by mesothelioma suits for things like a repairman that got lung cancer and repaired home appliances, so he probably might have worked on one of their 1920's models with asbestos insulation. Don't let it stop you, but put the backup insurance into the expenses.


>I married into toaster moguls

Truly, hacker news is the most wonderfully diverse ecosystem.


That is a sign of a well-capitalized, but not diverse milieu.


Ironic to see, that after all the litigations were settled, OP was toast.


[flagged]


[flagged]


[flagged]


Ooh,ooh, can I be the guy who pouts and says "this isn't Reddit?"


Pop! Done!


> Toasters are refined brilliance, if done right. The concept of "done" is computed using an analog computer programmed by human experts.

That hasn't been the case in ages. Modern cheap toasters use a dedicated toaster chip (... yes), which is a plain timer but with built-in retained heat compensation for when the toaster is used back-to-back. Fewer components equals cheaper toaster.

A very fancy toaster would have sensor for the bread (mimicking the Sunbeam) rather than a timer, but that's not common.

Either way, any toaster you buy today is a digital computer. :)


Gosh I didn't know there were toaster chips but it seems so. One here 8 pin package with pin 3 being the bagel pin. https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PT8A2514A.pdf


Seeing "BAGEL" on a pinout diagram is very cute.

> As input, requires a positive pulse to active "Bagel" function.

> As output, gives a "Bagel" function indicator, active high.


I have wondered for the longest time what the BAGEL button actually did, because on my cheap toaster, it seems to do very little.

Unfortunately I still have more questions after reading the schematic.

SW4 (BAGEL) allows current flow through R9/LED3 (BAGEL) which raises Vbe on Q2, forward biasing it, allowing current flow through Q2, dropping Vcs.

Meanwhile, power has been flowing through the main switch, with RL3/RL4 making a voltage divider. That main power flows to D1, forward biasing it, and then hits the cathode of D4, reverse biasing it, and allows Relay 1 to hold main power closed. The cathode of D4 also tees off to inputs on Relay 2, and the cathode of D5 (whose anode is fed by both another input on Relay 2, and the source of Q2).

So, when Q2’s Vcs drops due to it turning on, D5 presumably reverse biases, so the only input felt on Relay 2-2 is from D1. And Relay 2 does… something. If anyone else can explain, I’d be grateful.


The bagel button makes only one side of the slot get hot (or at least makes one side hotter than the other). Your toaster probably has a bagel icon on the top showing you which way to put the bagel in (cut side towards the center in every toaster I have seen).

Source: I'm not married to toaster moguls but I do peer into operating toasters to see which wires turn red. Feel free to replicate my research and post your observations.


Mine doesn’t have a bagel icon, but I do put them cut-side towards the center.

Looking closely during operation, the elements facing out from the center didn’t appear to change color with the bagel button depressed. It toasts the bagel just fine (as well as bread), though.

I should get a wattmeter and see if power draw changes.


My theory is that the bagel button does one thing only - it illuminates the bagel button when you press it. I've seen toasters with functional bagel mode but my latest cheap crap toaster does precisely nothing different when the bagel button is activated.


I don't think I've ever before been party to any conversation where the words "toaster mogul" ever appeared in the exchange, and yet, here they are, in all their golden brown and delicious glory!


Okay then. What does the frozen bread button do?


Ok, so that I didn't know. Here's from the Oster website: "When this feature is selected, the toaster will automatically defrost your food and then toast it in one easy step." So the temperature is lower for a little bit to thaw the food then higher to toast it.


The example toaster has 2 toast slots 3 heating elements (EDIT: Technically 4, as the last element is split into two: RL3 and RL4).

Relay 2, activated when the "bagel" light is lit through the gate of Q2, disconnects neutral from heating element 2 (the one in between slot 1 and 2) and 1 (the one on the outside of slot 2).

This means that there is only power to the outside heating element of slot 1, allowing you to toast only one side of a bread or bagel.


Then what is RL4? If it were just a resistor for a voltage divider, I’d think it might be labeled differently than the other three.


RL3 and RL4 are both heating elements in slot 1 - likely just one heating element with a tap somewhere - that indeed acts like a voltage divider.

The power to the circuit flows from in between those heating elements, through a single rectifier (D1), through a 1W resister (R1), before being clamped to 5.1V by a zener (VZ1). The use of the heating element as a voltage divider is just to get closer to the target voltage (<15V considering the rating of C1), using the fact that a heating element is just a resistor with an enormous power rating. No one cares about the power efficiency of a toaster control circuit.

However, the schematic is missing a connection to VCC from the 5V rail it created - it only connects to the high side of the mains relay/toast magnet as well as the bagel button. It was supposed to connect to VCC, which in that schematic is only connected as to the clock circuit.

(I was not using the RL numbers when I numbered the heating elements in my previous comment originally - my bad. I updated the comment.)


Thank you, makes sense.


I have a different experience than the other commentator with my toaster’s bagel button. Both sides still get heated. My bagel button makes the toasting cycle last longer than normal, which is perfect for defrosting a frozen bagel and then toasting to the setting the wheel is set to.


Is it labelled "bagel", or is it a symbol that could be interpreted? What you describe is what the "defrost" feature of the linked circuit would do.

I have certainly misinterpreted iconography completely before...


It's labeled bagel, and there is a separate defrost button. According to this[0] manual from Cuisinart, "The bagel feature adds extra time to the toasting cycle to allow for thicker breads." So there's our answer!

[0] https://www.cuisinart.ca/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-ca-cui...


Intel makes pretty good toaster chips too.

https://www.overclock.net/threads/worried-about-13900k-tempe...


A few hundred degrees celsius off mate.


Yes, but too expensive for my taste.


Intel is tame. My Ryzen 9 operates at 90C and is considered normal


I wonder if my first gen. Athlon 850 still runs, and if so what (other than itself) I could potentially cook with it.


https://www.mouser.fi/ProductDetail/Diodes-Incorporated/PT8A...

Now I want to buy a couple... 0.856 € unit price for 1pcs, available in stock.

New evil plan: corner the market on toaster controller ICs and build up a strategic reserve to resell to manufacturers at inflated prices.


Of course, there's also the June "toaster oven". ;-)


I worked at a small aircraft company and one of the oldtimers told me lawsuits almost sank the company multiple times. As human transport, people WILL die in your product. Whether it's your fault or theirs, the lawsuits are a huge amount of money and no less important than the engineering quality. And so the company got lawyers and even a lawyer for president, not an engineer, and is still doing really well.


They don't all have nothing that isn't required. My toaster runs Android, has a touch screen, WiFi and an app, and a camera for the AI to identify what you put in it and so you can watch a live stream of your toast or play back recordings from the cloud. It was a pre-order in 2015 that didn't ship for two years. Unfortunately they sold out to Weber a couple of years ago and the product has been discontinued, much to the disappointment of the few remaining loyal fans.

I hoped that was the kind of toaster OP wanted to make, but despite what I wrote above, this is not a disagreement with anything you said. I think people have mostly come to their senses (or have just run out of disposable income) these days and I suspect the market for $1500 smart toasters, if it ever existed, has dried up.


I really thought you were joking until I just looked up "smart toasters".

I can't find any that have a camera inside though, and I can't imagine how there would even be room for a field of view for one.

Unless you mean a toaster oven which is different? Turns out Breville makes one with a camera, much to my surprise.


>and I can't imagine how there would even be room for a field of view for one.

By making the walls transparent?


I can't say if you are kidding or not.

I am a little bit worried, that you aren't.


I was mildly exaggerating for comic effect, but not kidding. I bought it, I set it up, I filmed it. We still use it every day, and I will be sad when it breaks because they are no more. https://youtu.be/JTvJSRPIo90?si=mjCLawXg6Kt-pDDQ&t=585


They are pretty great. Sad that it was apparently only an aquihire by Weber.


>My toaster runs Android, has a touch screen, WiFi and an app, and a camera for the AI to identify what you put in it and so you can watch a live stream of your toast or play back recordings from the cloud.

You—you're kidding, right? Right?


They are talking about a June oven, which is a smart oven and far more advanced than a toaster. https://juneoven.com/


I've just played around with dalle and discord on toaster designs and tbh I wouldn't mind something that can store bread and automatically toast it by voice command (also remembers my preference via profile). And it shouldn't cost more than $150.


>They don't all have nothing that isn't required.

I'm not smart enough to parse that sentence, I think.


Upthread somebody asserted modern toasters have no unnecessary components (see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntzing) and this sentence is saying "not all toasters have only the minimal required components".


Surely in 2015 we all knew that a wifi toaster running android was going to be a disaster?


"Hackers compromised my toaster and burned down my house."


The comment op clearly states "modern cheap toaster". The toaster you describe is not that.


Two out of three ain't bad?

But yeah, you're right, it's really in the "countertop smart oven" category, but I saw a thread about toasters and I wanted to share what to me is kind of a funny example of early 21st century toaster-adjacent tech enthusiasm.


> * When they sold out in '97, domestic toasters had been infeasible for years already. *

I’m not gonna claim to know anything about toasters or manufacturing, but I’d hypothesize that selling American made toasters to the masses is no longer feasible. Most people just want to buy a cheap toaster and don’t care where it is made. So if you were a large company selling to the masses, that business model doesn’t work. But that doesn’t mean you can’t make a much smaller business selling to toast enthusiasts today. I just think it’s largely about branding. Can you make a superior, long, lasting toaster that will appeal to toaster enthusiasts? And can you do it for a price that is in the realm of reasonable? I can imagine buying an overpriced toaster that will last me 30 years for $300 (I personally wouldn’t but if we’re into toast, maybe). But I wouldn’t spend $1000 on it. On the other hand, what do I know? There’s plenty of fancy coffee equipment that sells for more than that, although I’d guess that the coffee snob market is much larger.


We have one manufacturer in the UK that still makes toasters here.

https://www.dualit.com/products/4-slice-newgen

Not their whole range though, the cheaper products come from China.


I know there is a niche - someone posted Balmuda earlier. I do wonder how far it scales. If you love bread there are better investments than a fancy toaster


Your inlaws had the best information in '97 and wealth of knowledge about specific products but the right entrepreneur might see it differently these days. (e.g. your inlaws could sell out and get into another business because their brand still had value)

I went to Best Buy to buy a microwave oven last weekend and noticed that all the microwaves: (a) had a Proposition 65 label (see https://www.mychemicalfreehouse.net/2023/06/why-most-applian...) or (b) were made in China.

Had any microwave been different on front (a) or front (b) it would have been shortlisted in a second. Instead I had to compare a number of twisty little claims that all looked alike and face the strong temptation to buy the absolutely cheapest because it seems the $250 microwave could just as well burn out in two years.

As for toasters my recollection as a kid growing up was that toasters were made of metal and could toast bread quickly. When manufacturing went to China I remember my mother-in-law buying several plastic toasters from Wal-Mart in succession that burned up within weeks. Eventually Chinese toasters became reliable at the expense of running at half the speed of old toasters which they countered by adding more slots.

Today there are more concerns than ever about China's centrality in manufacturing so politics alone mean more consumers are like me and would be receptive to products which have a different origin (say Vietnam, Pakistan, Tunisa, etc.) particularly if this is coupled with a clear difference in quality, which I know is possible because of my history with toasters.

It is so for toasters but also for other domestic appliances. If you could communicate that you're really different there is a frustrated consumer who would listen.


There was an interesting segment on the Accidental Tech Podcast [1] recently about microwaves, I did not realise that there were effectively only a couple of actual microwave units on the market and everything else is brand wrapping around it.

I replaced my need for a toaster recently with a Breville Joule oven, and am quite impressed, I'd definitely buy one of their microwaves if I ever needed one.

[1]: https://atp.fm/560


AFAIK Breville microwaves are also made by Midea.


Starbucks coffee has a Prop 65 label. It's likely that any domestic toaster would also put one on. The reason for this is the onus is on the company to prove it doesn't have any risky chemicals. The USA is the land of the frivolous lawsuit so its just not worth it.


I'd say yes and no.

The last Prop 65 label that I thought a lot about was on a bag of Asian fried snacks that had high levels of acrylamide which is a real cancer concern but on the other hand there acrylamide in all kinds of traditionally prepared foods as well as "ultra processed" foods.

Before that there was the garden hose nozzle that had brass with about 10% lead because lead makes machining brass dramatically easier but on the other hand do I want to be touching a 10% lead object a lot or getting lead in my garden?

The microwave probably gets it because of bisphenol A in polycarbonate plastics which really is a problem, the exact extent of which we don't know. It might be the reason why somebody you know is massively overweight or why your sperm count is down.

So even though the P65 label is commonly about a risk people widely accept I'd be happier to get something w/o a P65 label than one with it and getting rid of that label would be a real incentive to improve safety just as RoHS has been. The difference is that P65 is a lot harsher.

If anything, the PFAS debacle has proved that the "you have to prove substance X is harmful" model is not effective in situations where X is one of 10,000 harmful substances... I mean if you replace Bisphenol A with Bisphenol B you are probably not making a real difference.


Unless you’re microwaving your food in direct contact with the inside surfaces of the microwave - which is nearly impossible and would make an incredible mess - how could BPA in your microwave ever matter at all?

Oh, and unless you’re drinking directly from your garden hose (which is a terrible idea and will likely make you very sick), it really doesn’t matter if your garden hose nozzle is ‘lead free’ (which still has lead btw!) or not.


Making a cheap toaster for the masses is a difficult business today. Making a luxury product for a smaller audience is still feasible. I have a $300 Balmuda toaster that is honestly very good (it’s a steam oven). Previously I had a Breville toaster oven that was big enough to handle 80% of my oven tasks, but didn’t toast bread all that well. Tovala and Joule make fancy toaster ovens.


I think it's a steel ball. Either way, it's a terrifying object, that ball, when flying through the air.


Weird, I was just wondering 5 minutes ago if someone could do a modern take on the toaster that used the bimetallic strip - no necessarily the same mechanism but something analogue that gave a similar result.


I do this for a living.

Setting up a small operation and doing the physical actions of designing, manufacturing and selling the toasters is the easy, fun and obvious part.

I figure what your looking for, advice wise, is what's not obvious.

A few things you'll need:

-Product liability insurance, this isn't isn't easy or inexpensive to get. You need to have a lot of the below in place to get it.

- UL certification (or equivalent) this can be between $10-60k in total, you need this for anything that plugs into AC mains, anything that has a heater, a safety function, etc.

- FCC EMC/EMI testing, you need this if you do any intentional transmitting, have anything with digital electronics, etc. This is also pretty expensive.

Then you need to iterate the design until you meet the above.

I'm sure I'm missing some things


>I'm sure I'm missing some things

Manufacturing tooling and test jigs

A quality management system

Support and RMA systems

PLM software although you could probably get away with excel for a while

> UL certification / FCC

A lot of other certs if you want to sell into overseas markets... Luckily the US market is pretty big


> Setting up a small operation and doing the physical actions of designing, manufacturing and selling the toasters is the easy, fun and obvious part.

Sure if you’ve spent a decade plus designing and crafting electronics and metal cases. If not - you’ll probably get stuck there


There are lots of people you can hire to do those things. Like me.

Also, there are services like protocase for the enclosures. They specialize in making semi custom and custom enclosures, they even have design templates that you can download, modify, and then order.

It's far easier than it was 20 years ago.


I'm sure I'm missing some things

Sufficient capital is the big thing that turns everything else into a technical detail.

I mean UL certification is only a problem when the venture is under-capitalized.


Very true. Most of these things can be contracted for, there are people like me that do these things. But it's not cheap.

It's become somewhat of a litmus test for me. If potential clients are are surprised by the time, cost and effort if these things, it's usually a sign they're not a well thought out venture, and therefore not a great client.


> It's become somewhat of a litmus test for me. If potential clients are are surprised by the time, cost and effort if these things, it's usually a sign they're not a well thought out venture, and therefore not a great client.

This is a pretty good litmus test also for consulting. The amount of companies out there who think they can get an entire mobile app integrated to an existing companies infrastructure (that itself comprises of random SaaS apps from small companies with no APIs) for the equivalent of 2 months of work by one developer is quite astounding.


Lots of [fairly inexperienced] developers feed the perception.

I don’t know how many times I’ve given someone an honest, thoughtful estimate, and had them come to me, saying “I found this whiz kid, who a gamer friend recommended, who will do it all in a week, as a PWA!”

Eight months later, I’m usually asking “So… how’d that work out for you?”

We are a few days away from submitting an app I’ve been developing for about a year and a half (but the project has been under way for over three years).

The reason that I took it on, was because a [non-technical] friend of mine had created a nonprofit, and was soliciting bids for development of the tech.

He didn’t have a particularly detailed plan, but his original idea would have required a massive development effort.

The “studios” he was talking to, told him that they would have a fully-functional MVP, in three months.

The only person he talked to, that I respected, was a relatively older chap, who basically said "It will be at least six months, and six figures, but come back, when you have a better idea of what you want."

--

"We do what we do, not because it is easy, but because we thought it would be easy."

- The Programmer's Credo


Potential clients who express a desire not to pay enough to keep you in business are best left to your competitors.

Potential clients who are under-capitalized and say, I will need to find more money are worth working with.

The biggest mistake in business is trying to save clients/customers money on the goods/services you sell. The last 10% is the part of the price where you make money.


Does the toaster on Amazon have these? If not they are extra.


When too many OOOOLOOO brand toasters start fires, they just close their Amazon profile and create a new one selling FOLGARP brand toasters.

You can't have quite that level of untouchability as a US manufacturer, so you have to do it right.


I bought this product for my husband and he loves it!


https://youtu.be/nQpxAvjD_30?t=4s


:D


FOLGARP is the best. Three out of four of the couples I gifted those toasters are now deceased and will never demand a gift from me ever again. The fire investigators just call it an “act of god.”

Unfortunately the fourth only burned their house down and now we have to tolerate an insufferable GoFundMe campaign because their CA fire insurance only covers gender reveal parties. Bezos ruins everything.


Yeah, these fr*cking toasters are out to get humans. Ask colonel Saul


I did, but he just keeps trying to cut the corners off all my paper.


So say we all!


I really like this comment, and am now trawling DanHulton.com for more


I went hunting on DanHulton.com for some more gold. I was fascinated by the "I Paid The Most" site, and was disappointed it wasn't a real thing (anymore).

@DanHulton - tell us all the tale.


Not sure what you mean by not a real thing anymore - it's still up at https://ipaidthemost.com/

Do I have a broken link somewhere?


Is FOLGARP an IKEA thing?


You're thinking of FÖLGARP


this thread is now the #1 hit on Google for 'FOLGARP'


Soon to be #1 for “toasters made in USA”.


Yes, they do. You can see the "UL" mark on the product label


https://photos.app.goo.gl/S6sFaEUxY89Tgxn56 here's an example of the safety/certification markings from a 24V power supply sold in the EU.

Take a close look at the TÜV/GS logo and font. I seriously doubt the UL file number E131992 exists. The Safety Mark 021068-00 code is for a Samsung AC Adapter [1], which this is not. You can see some of the same details in the AliExpress listings.

[1] https://www.go.gov.sg/safety-mark


This is called counterfeiting.

It's the same thing for Rolex's at the Eiffel Tower. Does that make the eiffel tower, or real eatches any different?

Breaking news. This just in! China is manufacturing counterfeiting products


Are you sure it's the original label and not a fake?

Just recently a German tech channel reviewed a "gaming PC" sold on Amazon. The power supply had a fake CE label (aka it's illegal to sell in the EU) and the graphics card was a used Chinese crypto mining card that caught fire before they were done testing.


I don't think it was in earnest. The label could definitely be fake.

CE - labels are a mess. First of all, you can self-certify. So the label may be correct but the certification shady. Then you can of course just slap on a CE label on something which isn't even certified.

To add insult to injury, China made a virtually indistinguishable CE label which means "China Export". Thanks, China.


You know there's another CE mark which stands for "China Export" right ? It just means it was manufactured in China and pretty much indistinguishable from Europe's CE mark.


That's a myth. There is no such marking as "China Export".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking#%22China_Export%22


wow ok, I stand corrected!


Well I’m convinced


They were counterfeiting the labels on some products so they started requiring holographic labels on some kinds of products, like Christmas lights


The toaster on Amazon Basics will be a remarkable replica of your toaster if it's truly successful!


Everything is regulated these days and it usually costs a fortune and helps nobody except incumbents. Makes everything feel rigged and makes me not want to participate in the economy.

I wish we could go back to a time when everyone takes their own risks and has to do their own research. Manufacturers could optionally pay some standards company to add some safety label to it to help boost customer confidence but it should not be compulsory. We're all going to die eventually and this obsession with safety is unhealthy and probably kills more people than it protects (e.g. due to the mental distress they cause and false peace of mind which dumbs down consumers and makes them feel like they don't need to do their own research... Not to mention the social harms caused by the passive 'trust the experts' mindset).


Its not there to help incumbents. New companies come up all the time to make these kinds of products. Its a barrier to entry to keep Joe dipshit who learned how to solder together two wires last night thinking he can has an overnight get rich quick scheme shoddily throwing some random components together without knowing or acknowledging what they are really doing and selling that product to some unsuspecting person that is gonna get to experience a (maybe?) fun spark show and electrical fire as soon as they plug in their new device. Its happened enough that these barriers have pretty much become required. But if someone is serious about making a product, they will take the necessary steps for certification.


I thought this was America, why are we infringing on Joe Dipshits god given right to sell incendiary devices on random delay timers to unsuspecting members of the public?


Nonsense! I did my own research, and I purchased this incendiary device on purpose!


I believe you, but arent you suspicious of the Big Toasta superconglomerate.


Although I don’t want random delay incendiary devices either, I do have some sympathy with OP. The net effect of all regulations like this means large classes of business are not feasible unless you have substantial capital. And availability of capital for good ideas is not at all evenly distributed in our society (the UK at least). This is just one more way that we are going to entrench low social mobility. Note also, it’s not just electronics regs that act in this way - our societies have become much more regulated and rule bound in my life time. Often things for good reason, but we should think about the ways in which this entrenches incumbents imo.


> Note also, it’s not just electronics regs that act in this way - our societies have become much more regulated and rule bound in my life time. Often things for good reason.

After WW2 we were in a high-trust, low-barrier society state across the Western world [1]. You could leave your door unlocked and no one would come and rob you, your children could roam free as they pleased, you could start what could become a multi-billion dollar enterprise in your garage and neither the IRS nor "HOA enforcers" would raise an eyebrow or keep annoying you with audits, you could afford a home with a garage in the first place even as a blue collar worker. And that worked out pretty well in retrospective - we had a literally booming economy from both large giants as well as small startups, people had lots of children as they actually had money, employees in companies had actual freedom to decide things even on lower levels where the actual work happened, employees entered their company at 16-18 and left at 65-ish, and the focus of upper management was to keep the company healthy.

Around / after the fall of the USSR, things took a serious nosedive all at once. A lot of solid blue-collar employment got moved off overseas, poverty shot through the roof (and with it, related crimes like burglaries and robberies), IRS shifted from enforcing the tax code fairly to focusing on small businesses and people (partially because the uber rich and international megacorps now employed sizable amounts of lawyers and tax specialists that created schemes that were way too complex for the IRS to dig through), companies more and more focused on quarterly results, short-term benefits and financial plays instead of sustainability (we're seeing right now with Boeing how a once proud company has fallen to the MBA beancounters), employers completely forgot about responsibility for their workers and hired-and-fired them in response to said quarterly results, the resulting loss of trust led to absurd micromanaging from above, and everyone in general went for "side hustles" and squeezing out some tiny amounts of money for themselves by tricking others because there was no other way.

And the combination of all of that is IMHO what created the low-trust society state we are in: we cannot trust our neighbour, our employer, a random hobo on the streets, the government, no one any more.

[1] Yes, I know, distrust against non-Whites, LGBT, ... was a (massive) thing but that's not my point here. And yes, I'm painting a rose-colored picture, and realities could vastly differ.


The low trust part could mostly be a (percieved) race thing. I wont claim to understand human psychology.

But I dont think thats enough to explain this. Something relevant, a lot of the houses that were allowed to be built in the 40s would be illegal now. I could probably build a decently sized small house with a garage with a cousin for 20-30k. But it would be illegal to live in. Even in the countryside... and eventually the taxman would find me, which forces us to not build something to use, but build something that functions as an investment.


> The low trust part could mostly be a (percieved) race thing. I wont claim to understand human psychology.

Racism definitely plays a part in here ("white flight"), but it's by far not the dominant issue.

> Something relevant, a lot of the houses that were allowed to be built in the 40s would be illegal now.

Indeed, but their designs are illegal nowadays for good reasons, mostly related to fire code or structural integrity. Way too many people have literally died in their sleep in unsafe homes. Statista only goes back to 1977 for residential fire deaths, but even that shows a serious reduction of cases over the decades [1].

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/376703/us-civilian-fire-...


You have to make a choice. High homelessness, "communism", or cheap unregulated housing options.

You cant have safety and freedom.

I do think building codes are valid in cities. Outside of cities it should be a free for all, but its not.

However, building codes now are insanely overreaching. I have lived in japan for a few years and found many of the features in buildings here would never be allowed in the US. Minimum stairwell widths, door sizes, building sizes, parking lot requirements, etc. Modern Japanese buildings are probably 100 times safer but would fail american building code.

Point is if the argument is we need regulation for safety it needs to actually be for safety, and minimally.


Hm. Where I live, I built my house in the country. There were no rules, no inspections except well and septic by the county health department.

Maybe other counties have the resources to create bureaucracies. But her in the Midwest there's not the budget for creating elaborate rules, much less paying inspectors.


The majority of the US population lives in places where thats not the case.


Right, right. But where you live is a choice.


Not if there are visa requirements, no non remote job opportunities, or you have all your family in the current city you live, and they are potentially ageing, and your kids are in local school, or you dont want to quit current job, or you are so broke you cant get an initial land / dwelling funds in the target location.

Any of those and youve captured most of the working population of the US.


That's again, largely choice.

Sure, some folks have a hard time choosing where to live, I get it. If we're honest, most folks just live by default wherever. They don't want to change.

And you vastly overestimate the cost of living outside major cities. It's a tiny fraction of what you might imagine.

I think I agree, if we recast it as 'inertia', it captures most of the working population of the US.


> Around / after the fall of the USSR, things took a serious nosedive all at once.

That may be when the effect was felt, but the seeds were planted much earlier than this - at least 20 years.


>going to entrench low social mobility

Pretty sure we're already there.


No not Big Toasta, but I am highly suspicious of Big Waffle Makah. How do you make a breakfast meal that also is sort of like a desert? This is highly questionable behavior.


>unsuspecting

Therein lies the crux, I think. Perhaps lowering the consumer trust barriers boosts the economy, perhaps it's the road to hell.


That means you the kind of person that buys an experimental toaster and leaves it plugged through the night in your families kitchen?

There might be regulation that is too much, also in the field of electrical engineering (and I am a certified EE), but most of it (especially regarding toasters) is pretty useful if you want to sleep sound.

This is not about making a toaster. I could make one using a long piece of wire and a transformer. It is about making a toaster that has a certain standard and does not kill people, burn down houses and/or interferes with radio traffic. All kind of things that would suck.

If you can't clear that bar as a manufacturer, you shouldn't be one. You could still build things for yourself – but if you want to sell things to others they should be able to assume you are not out there to kill them without deeply researching your company, aquiring a degree in mechanical and electrical engineering, buying your product and disassembling it. And I say that as a person that would be able to do that, unlike most.


But the issue isn’t that they couldn’t clear that bar, necessarily. It’s that they may not have the capital to prove it. We have created an uneven playing field against OLLLOO devices, and against large home grown corps which can indirectly inflate the prices for certification because the incumbency means the cost is not an issue for them.


That depends on your area of operations I guess. If you want to go into aviation, medical devices, trains, cars or anything involving big industrial processes, sure.

If you want to build a toaster not so much. You could just slap a CE sign on and probably get away with selling it via online platforms. That however means you guarantee for the compliance.

You also need a manual in the language of the nation where you want to sell it and a model/serial number and a risk analysis. That is not nothing, but the motivated individual could learn all of that in a few years, if they are somewhat intelligent.

Sure depending on what area you are operating in the catch might be even knowing what all those norms are and the fact that we sometimes have to pay to even read the norms is a friggin crime. But it is probably a good thing that there are some requirements one needs to fulfill to e.g. becoming a commercial airplane manufacturer.

Regulatory capture (big corps demanding stricter regulation to root out their smaller competition) is a thing. But not with the toaster industry.


I'm not implying it's regulatory capture in the sense of a conspiracy of Big Toaster. It was more an observation that, generally, increasing complexity in regulation does have down sides in that it gives advantages to scale. Small and even medium sizes businesses are less viable than they were 30 or 50 years ago. Maybe we see the effects of that in the concentration of capital?


What part of UL testing and certification do you think constitutes false peace of mind?

If I sell you a toaster that I built in my own little workshop (USA! USA!), then: Wouldn't you prefer that there be at least some third-party testing to ensure that it is safe enough to not burn your house down? And if you don't care about your own safety (because you know how to Do Your Own Research), then: Wouldn't your kids and neighbors prefer this testing?

Maybe if you trust me (because you like the cut of my jib or something) then you'll believe me when I say that I had my engineering-type buddy go over the design and he said it was OK.

But caveat emptor: You should not trust me. I, the seller in a hypothetical truly-free market, am here to give you as little as I can get away with for as many dollars as I can take you for.

That's what UL helps with, in this context: They're an impartial private company that tests products to ensure that they meet safety standards (most of which they designed themselves, but that's just a positive example of free enterprise at work). They do charge [plenty of] money for this service, but they've got expenses to cover (and profit to make!) just as you or I do.

But there is no federal law or national regulation requiring US consumers to use only UL-listed toasters. That's not a thing, and it has never been a thing. Such a requirement may be a thing in some more-local jurisdictions, and/or also an important part of some insurance policies, but the overarching regulatory environment that you seem to be railing against in the context of toasters simply does not exist.


American consumers think that “made in the USA” is a sign of quality. The regulations in the USA that weed out poor quality products are a big part of that. You buy such a product without being afraid that you’re going to injure yourself when you plug it in because the safety regulations are working.


But quixotically, they are rarely willing to pay the premium that American manufacturing brings with it.


> I wish we could go back to a time when everyone takes their own risks and has to do their own research.

Your risks can impact other people. If your toaster catches fire, it could kill people in the apartment next to yours. If the brakes on your car fail, you could kill anyone who is in your path. These other people didn't choose to take on these risks.


I dont know.

They killed hundreds building the Brooklyn Bridge, the hoover dam. So many horror stories of things like that xray shield sizer or lawn darts, or laundry mangles, etc.

That world wasn't better for anyone but the robber barrons.


I love that regulations kill people through both excessive mental distress and false peace of mind. That’s wonderful.


Regulations are anti-competitive as they prevent people from successfully bootstrapping their startups and becoming entrepreneurs. It forces ambitious people without capital to be wage slaves which causes substantial mental distress.

False peace of mind harms people because it makes people assume that all products on the shelves are safe by default which isn't always the case and drives harmful behaviors on a massive scale. Take the adoption of Glyphosate for example. Had people not been reassured by the government that it was 100% safe, many people would not have used it. Consumers outsourcing trust to the government instead of the individuals who produce the goods is harmful because it creates an environment which gives untrustworthy people a competitive edge and a certain degree of protection from liability. It shifts some responsibility away from producers who understand the product best and towards government agencies whose interest is to help large private companies maintain market dominance.


Today having quality standards means that people have some amount of faith in the products sold on shelves. The alternative doesn't mean that the bad products go away, or that everyone would just "be careful" somehow and find ways to guess at how safe things are. We know we can't trust everything sold to us, and we really have no ability to tell what's killing us or our family. If we could all just always look out for ourselves we'd never have kids dying because of heavy metals in their applesauce.

It's a weird thing when people are convinced that the solution to snake oil salesmen and serial murderers are making those very things commonplace and perfectly legal.

There are times when corporations abuse regulations to add excessive burdens on their would-be competitors, but making sure your toasters don't electrocute you or burn your house down isn't one of those situations.

There are also times when our government and their regulations don't protect people as well as they should. That's a sign that we need more regulations and better enforcement/accountability, not an indication that we should give up trying to hold anyone to any kind of standards in the first place.

Honestly, we want the responsibility to be on government agencies because when they fail to protect our interests we at least have the option to vote them out and replace them with people who will do their job. You don't get to vote out the CEO or shareholders who decide to become serial killers so that they can make a little extra money on top of the millions/billions they already make in profits. Why would you want to limit your own power so that others can exploit you more easily? Companies have shown time and time again that they will knowingly poison you, kill you even, if they think it will make them more money. They'll spend tons of time and money trying to cover it up too. You'd rather trust them than your own elected representatives? Maybe you've been voting for the wrong people...


Someone drank the libertarian cool aid. I'll take my toasters certified and regulated, they might not be 100% safe, but they sure as hell will be safer than what most garage entrepreneurs will cobble together. Details matter, standards matter, and regulation is a way to enforce those.


"All right; but apart from the sanitation, education, medicine, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"


I think this is the most insane thing I have read in a year, and I spend too much time on twitter


>I wish we could go back to a time when everyone takes their own risks and has to do their own research.

When was this time?


Here’s the thing, electricity will kill you.

> I wish we could go back to a time when everyone takes their own risks and has to do their own research.

Trust me, you really don’t.


> I wish we could go back to a time when everyone takes their own risks and has to do their own research

Apart from all of the other obvious things people have mentioned, what this hyperlibertarian perspective fails to take into account is externalities. I might have done my own toaster research, but did my neighbor? What happens when my neighbor doesn’t do his own toaster research properly and ends up burning down both of our apartments? Insurance can’t cover everything that will be destroyed.


I guess hyperlibertarian don't see the use of insurance either so this is a moot point. And they wouldn't live close to any neighbor (or rather, nobody would want to live close to them).


The Earth's too small for that. One way to solve it is GLOBAL THERMONUCLEAR WAR and another is bunches of space habitats. Personally I prefer the latter.


you need to read up on the history of those regulations. Hint: chesterton’s fence


I've had a similar idea, except in addition to toasters, it's midsize pickup trucks, washing machines, dryers, dishwashers...

What I've found is that regulations make it impossible to sell simple machines, labor costs make it impossible to compete on price, lawyers make it impossible to go to market without being sued, and consumers who say they want reliable, well-made goods will balk and buy cheap stuff en masse when it comes down to the wire. And that's if you actually succeed in designing and manufacturing a good product.

Someone could do it, I think. But I'm deterred by all the stuff I just wrote, and the people who succeed in businesses that seriously challenge the status quo are the ones aren't deterred by that stuff. And for every one guy who does succeed in pressuring the status quo, a hundred guys flame out... but again, guys who succeed aren't deterred by that either!


> [...] and consumers who say they want reliable, well-made goods will balk and buy cheap stuff en masse when it comes down to the wire.

And I've never really had much of a problem with cheap toasters being unreliable in the first place. But I guess there are people who do?


My main issue is usually that it’s so hard to tell if something is cheap but costs a lot, or if it costs a lot because it’s not cheap. Probably also partially because of price anchoring, where products seem expensive, because many very cheap ones cost even less.


When our first cheap toaster broke, I tried to find a replacement part and then started really looking into a 'good' toaster. What I found is that there's pretty much the same metal box inside all toasters under about $200-- and even some of those seemed like they might use the same mechanism. (Cheap but costs a lot!) A few seemed like they might have slightly different control circuitry but not much else aside from the body shell.

I even looked into making my own toaster (though not quite from scratch[0]) but eventually decided I wasn't willing to take on the risk of an untested electrical heating device, in the same way I would be wary of the cheapest toaster from ABCDEFG etc. on Amazon.

Not long after, a customer brought a British-made toaster[1] into my repair shop. I had warned her about the impossibility of getting parts for toasters, but she'd actually already written in to the company and ordered a replacement heating element! It was surprisingly easy to work on, as the timer only controlled the heating element and the pop-up was a manual lever. At first glance that looked like a cheap solution, but on closer inspection it was built well and meant to last. (Costs a lot because it's not cheap.) I hear they still make some like that but the company's cheaper products aren't built the same.

0: https://www.dezeen.com/2009/06/27/the-toaster-project-by-tho...

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualit


Very true, unfortunately this means that for many modern products it only makes sense to buy the cheapest because then at least you know exactly what you're getting (low quality), even though it's not really what you want. Yet again an instance of Market for Lemons (or maybe Gresham's law).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law


It depends. For example for Kitchenware (not electronics), I’m very happy with German company Rösle. Usually the most expensive, but always high quality.


Reputation is a mechanism to escape the 'market for lemons'. Eg I know that Miele sells good stuff, and they are defending that reputation by continuing to produce good stuff, because it allows them to charge more.

Gresham's law only applies when someone forces you to accept both moneys at par. Historically, people would require discounts for the bad coins, when they could.

That's also why coins meant for an international audience where consistently of high quality, even when the domestic coins of the same issuer where being debased. (The Spanish dollar was a very good example of this. That's what the Americans used to use.)

And that's exactly because while you can force your own subjects to accept your coins, you have to convince the foreigners. Reputation is key. No 'bad money drives out good money' here. Just the opposite.


Consumer Reports is really the only objective measurement out there.

Considering the various federal agencies do this for many many other things for certification/regs ... why not have them also do ratings?

You need objective tests and experienced testers. We know from restaurant recommendations online (4 stars +/_ .2 stars for EVERYTHING) that in the general public there is far too much variance in "good".

Of course the "experts" often fall into the "audiophile" trap in stereos, where a perfectly functional cheap alternative is downplayed for a laundry list of features or a pretty packaging. I mean, we are talking about toasters here.

I wonder how much easier it is for OP to simply walk into China and get a factory setup to do this. Probably some bribes involved but the net cost might be less than regulatory approval here. Then get Chinese manufacturing work and the reverse-migrate a factory here.

If I was overlord of the US, I would be actively pushing US companies to start doing this with heavy US government coopoeration. You know, like China did to us.


> [...] why not have them also do ratings?

So the government is supposed to codify what makes pasta is tasty? Or whether pineapple on pizza is good or bad?

> If I was overlord of the US, I would be actively pushing US companies to start doing this with heavy US government coopoeration. You know, like China did to us.

Huh?


Best toaster I've ever owned is a no-name I bought for about $20 at Lowes when they had them in stock for Christmas season. It makes perfect toast, and does a great job on bagles also.


Yeah I bought a cheap ~$10 hamilton beach 2 toast unit i've been using for at least 15 years. It's fine, toasts evenly, works with bagels. What else could you want?


I bought an expensive, name brand, toaster.

It's crap.


"Expensive and name brand" doesn't mean anything in the toaster world. They all come out of the same Chinese OEM factory with different badges on. Same with most comodity white goods like washing machines, fridges, microwave ovens, etc.

If you want good toasters you need to hunt older models from 30+ years ago.


But what is a "good" toaster?

My $25 toaster works fine. And it's got the modern stainless steel look that blends in nicely with other modern kitchen appliances.

What benefits would a toaster from 1994 or earlier give me? My bread and bagels are currently successfully toasted.


>But what is a "good" toaster?

One that toasts your bread slices evenly every time, without under toasting it or burning it, and without you needing to fiddle with the timer know all the time in order to mitigate those issues.

If your 25$ toaster achieves that it's the lottery winning exception, not the rule. Most toaster are just terrible at toasting evenly even after you fiddle with the knob to find the right Goldielocks setting.


I dunno, I've just never had a problem.

I figure out the right number/setting for the bread I like and it toasts.

What is "even" toasting? Like I genuinely can't tell if my toaster is uneven or whether I should suddenly be unhappy with it. I mean I guess it's not the precise exact shade of tan in every spot, but I've never seen that in my life, even at fancy restaurant breakfasts.

If one part of my toast is a different shade of brown I don't have a problem. I mean, it toasts and it doesn't burn. And I don't think I've won any kind of lottery.

I just feel like I'm missing something here. Cheap modern toasters seem... perfectly fine.

(Mine is a two-slice toaster from Hamilton Beach I bought for $25 which has 11K reviews on Amazon, 4.4 stars [1]. So most of the reviewers seem pretty happy too. It does seem like there are some 1-star reviewers who got duds where the inside and outside toast at different rates, or it doesn't toast half the slice. So maybe there's a quality control issue, but it seems like most people's units, including mine, don't have those problems.)

[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KZ729F6


I think you need to aim for a luxury-ish niche, or at least a occupy a space where people feel like they're buying a piece of luxury, that's aspirational, where people know they're paying over the odds and that's part of the feel good factor of buying it.

A toaster might well be a good space for that - cheap enough that it can be expensive in relative terms without being out of reach.

But figuring out the marketing of that feels almost as hard as the product.

I suspect a lot of exaggerated appeal to "why aren't things as good/simple/reliable as they used to be?" that might not be all about toasters, but where even an expensive toaster can be cheap enough to become a symbolic buy for people.


I have a theory that anything that takes permanent, visible-realestate in the household has someone of a niche for people wanting tastefully designed things. In essence, things that do not appear "disposable" as so many kitchen appliances do. People pay extra for designer hot water pots. However purely aesthetic upgrade products will need serious work to maintain differentiation.

Dyson is a more glaring example (fans, vacuums, hair dryers), albeit with expensively achieved differentiation on engineering and manufacturing quality.


There are already companies that make nice-looking, higher-end kitchen appliances though - Breville comes to mind, there are probably others. Speaking from personal experience, I have a toaster oven from them that’s lasted close to ten years with zero problems; I’d have a hard time being convinced to pay more for a “made in USA” one unless there was something truly exceptional about it.


I bought a Breville toaster and microwave when I was moving into and furnishing a new NYC apartment from scratch, and I decided to get something a little nicer, more aesthetic, etc. They were on a major after-Xmas sale so I figured why not.

What I was not prepared for was how much better quality they were by a mile. It's not even close, they're so much more sturdy and well made and they work so much better than the ones I'd had before.

Like the microwave is incredibly consistent in heating, it has a rotary knob for power level so you basically never get the on fire on one side and freezing on the other side thing if you don't want to, stuff like that. The toaster is a joy, it has an elegant little display, the toast is always flawless.

So there's definitely a market for better stuff too. Unfortunately the OP without any prior experience might not be able to hit that bar either.


Note for other readers: due to old licensing deals for names, the brand sold as Breville in Europe is not the same as the one in US, CA, and AU. The one being talked about here is known as Sage in Europe.

And they really are superior-quality devices.


I have trouble understanding your last sentence.

Is Breville EU/Sage appliances the high quality one, or is Breville US/AU/CA the high quality one?


I m making a separate reply because I understand my answer was unclear.

Sage EU is Breville US/CA/AU/NZ. Those are high quality. It’s an Aussie company.

Breville EU and possibly UK (old agreements that may well predate the EEC, so don’t know any details) not the same; have never used and cannot comment.


How do they compare to the top-of-the-line Bosch (ie. TAT861X)?

Seems to me that the Sage/Breville have more bells and whistles (a LED light count-down, bread type selector...) whereas the Bosch seems to be a more no-nonsense one with better hardware inside (quartz glass heating elements etc)?


Sorry for the late reply but been out of town and not checking. Those are toasters, not toaster ovens.

A toaster toasts bread (and waffles, or other thin flour things). That's it.

A toaster oven began as a category of device that looked like a tiny oven but was built to be a toaster that could do a little bit more than just toast bread. But it's evolved, and modern toaster ovens can take a quarter-sheet pan (it's based on US standard, so it's 13"x9", but more or less the same size is used worldwide in commercial kitchens), sometimes a little larger.

I have never owned a Breville toaster. I have owned three of their toaster ovens, two of which I've given to friends and family when I moved up in size. I don't turn my main oven on, at all, except for holidays, because the toaster oven heats up and finishes cooking the food before the big oven even gets up to temperature. And I live in the southern US, so extra heat in the kitchen is usually heat that the air conditioner has to remove - it very rarely is helping me keep warm (think AGA ranges - those would never work here).

I wait for the sub-freezing nights, of which we usually have 20-30 a year at most (no kidding), to run the self-clean cycle on the big oven.


Hey, thanks for the reply.

I was specifically looking for info about toasters (not toaster ovens) because ours (quite old generic one) recently stopped ejecting toasted slices. I've also read quite a lot of positive Sage/Breville reviews and test results so that's why I was curious about real-life experiences.

In the end, I managed to track down one of the last Bosch models ( https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/bosch-styline ), which was a bit cheaper (but still quite expensive for a toaster) and seems to work fine.

However, they claim that this model "uses quartz heating for even toasting" - yeah, no. ;)


They have really superb build quality in all the ones I've had, but I've only ever used the toaster ovens (which are so good that they're my go-to wedding gift if it's someone I'm close enough to that I'd spend that much). Glad you found one that's working out for you.


Australian company, so non-Europe Breville is the one I know. I don't believe that the European Breville sells over here.


That's why I think you need a compelling story about it. How the poor inventor struggled against the odds to fix the scourge of bad toast, to bring you an exquisite product that makes you feel good to own for the story more than any tangible reason. It needs to be a personal story to set him apart from the other brands.


You could go that one gun coffee brand and make it a camo pattern.

Or go the other way and give it a rainbow pattern? Hell, put one on each side so you can flip it depending on which relatives are coming over.


I think that kind of messaging is largely inherently incompatible with aiming for the high-margin/high-end market whether or not your buyers agree with you. E.g. I'm perfectly fine with a variety of political symbols, but I'd think a toaster emblazoned with them looked like a cheap gimmick, and would expect it to be priced as one.


throw in some tenuous connection to reviving the industrious spirit of Old Detroit ("It Never Died") and you have yourself a brand!


Especially when you can sell for more something made in France, Italy, Japan or Germany. I think the "made in" chauvinism is a hard sell if it's the USA, especially to US customer: doesn't feel exotic and isn't cheap, so what's it there for except some cheap cash grab ?

Plus, you know, there are some nice Chinese stuff now and they have an economy of scale that the US simply can't match.


People will do Bosch or Miele appliances because it sounds good in a real estate listing, but that’s relying on the cachet of a known brand.

I looked at a condo once with an interesting sort of art deco kitchen on and a custom refrigerator that fit the theme. My first thought was, it’s got to be hell to get parts for that or find someone who knows how to work on it.


I have read numerous posts on HN where Miele appliance owners swear by their reliability and repairability. I see Bosch mentioned less often.


"I have read numerous posts on HN where Miele appliance owners swear by their reliability and repairability."

Used to be. We had the same Miele devices for years, but I think their modern versions got downhill as well.


Sub Zero and Wolf is also the US “sounds good in a real estate listing” and with prices to match. You can easily be over $10k for a fridge or freezer!

Worse is the warranty: we had an LED strip behind the crisper drawer fail after about 3 years and it was “Sorry; you’re out of warranty, that will be $220 in parts and $260 in labor”.


I recently discovered someone doing this.

Revolution Cooking sells $280 and $350 toasters. They have touch screens, dozens of modes optimized for different kinds of bread, gluten-free mode and 7 toastiness levels. One of my colleagues has one and loves it dearly.

It appears to be a US design firm that uses contract manufacturing:

“we developed a proprietary alloy, a new, more efficient component design system, and intelligent heating algorithms that adjust in real-time.”

“Tom assembled a team of world class engineers, designers and product marketers in Boston, MA, where Revolution Cooking is headquartered today.”

https://revcook.com/pages/compare


>lawyers make it impossible to go to market without being sued,

This would be my biggest concern. The potential field full of landmines that is the patent process would give me pause. Not spending the money to properly research because of bootstrapping the process could ultimately be more expensive if some other company comes after you for patent infringement.

Whatever your idea is, I would definitely do some investigating before investing too much time and effort getting too far down the road to ultimately hit a patent caused dead end.


The trick is to tie it up in court for years, while you milk the marketplace. If you lose, pivot. That seems to be a standard playbook.


I doubt a bootstrapped company has the finances to afford lawyers to tie it up for years. That's a lawyer's wet dream of a case being extended for years. The billing on a case like that alone could make someone a partner.

Just because one side's legal playbook says delay, the other side can equally try to speed things along. Underestimate opposing counsel at your own expense, especially when they are funded with deeper pockets than yours.


Usually you’ll be sued for your profits and ordered by the court to stop selling during legal proceedings. And if you don’t, triple damages.


that should be treble ... ba dum tsss


> midsize pickup trucks, washing machines, dryers, dishwashers...

"simple machines"?


To be fair, washing machines are extremely simple. The trucks, a little less so.


A washing machine spins at up to 14-16 hundred RPM, while contain weight that shifts and changes based on the water added. I wouldn't necessarily define that as "simple", either.


Yes, a couple of counterweights take care of that. Tear a washing machine down and you'll discover that there's not that much inside.


A 2004 Toyota Tacoma vs a 2024 Toyota Tacoma is a simple machine.


Does the 2004 Toyota Tacoma have fuel injection or ABS (Anti-lock braking system)? If yes, neither are simple. And, can you provide some specific examples that demonstrate 2024 model is substantially more complex than 2004 model?


You're being deliberately obtuse. The feature list in the 2004 Tacoma is significantly shorter. Every mechanic who's been in the business for long enough says that older trucks were easier to work on.

If I climb in a modern car that I remote started from my cell phone, automatically adjusted the seat to my preferred profile, and booted up an onboard computer to allow me to pick between media playback and navigation, and I say "I miss when this model of car was simpler back in the day", are you seriously going to try and make the claim that there's been no increase in complexity?


>washing machines

Among your examples I think this one is interesting.

Speed Queen is regarded as among the best washing machines + dryers and they are made in the US. They are extremely well built, they feel really sturdy to use and also are known for being extremely reliable.

I guess what I'm imagining is the Speed Queen of toasters..


They’re also known to use a ton of water, be extremely inefficient, and destroy your clothing much faster than a modern washer. Fetishizing “the good old simple times” isn’t going to get us to better products.


Those are two sides of the same coin though. More durable machines (solid, thick components for example) will be heavier and in the example of a washing machine will require more energy to move. Washing machines have also become much cheaper than 40 years ago, making them more of a disposable item.


citation?

I never heard of Speed Queen, or even seen one, but someone recommended them on here a few weeks ago


I'm in Europe so we don't have these, but I got interested in what are speed queen. Turns out they are laundromat machines that are also sold for residential use.

This article does say it is not an efficient machine. they tweaked the normal cycle to pass the DoE efficiency test (but your clothes are not washed), and left alone the inefficient cycles which are not checked by DoE: https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/speed-queen-revie...


I’ve only ever seen Speed Queens in laundromats in Eastern Europe.

I will grant them this: the branding is not lying, they are fast as fuck.


I've only used them very occasionally in laundromats when travelling.

They are fast, but the clothes aren't cleaned properly.


I had no trouble with them cleaning some heavily dirty clothing (from doing construction works), I guess mileage may vary somewhat.

I did notice that the dryers (which I think are the same brand) have a hard time properly drying some articles such as thick wool socks within their programmed time.


Using a ton of water is a plus. Saving water is a necessity in overcrowded megalopolises maybe, imposed on all the rest.


Just don't use any plastic parts, over-engineer the whole thing internally, no wifi, just a dial for temp and lever to engage. All these fancy toasters still can't toast bread.


If you do WiFi, do it right. Nobody wants to install a toaster app but many Devs would enjoy a little API for their toasters


I would imagine the percent of people who are looking to buy an expensive toaster is small, the percentage of those customers who know how to code is even smaller, and the percentage of those programmer customers who have time to and are also interested in programming their toaster is vanishingly small.


You might be right but I highly believe that it would increase in popularity once you have more local only devices in this space.

I have plenty smart devices with stupid apps, but I would pay premium for a quality product with a simple API and no third party servers anytime.

Personally I base many buying decisions around 'hackability'

Edit:// actually I think this is a coming market as Google only recently started to support smart devices without third party servers for their home app so before that local only ment no Google home most of the time.


I am honestly struggling to find any use case to an iot toaster. Keen to understand what you have in mind.


Smart timer, finish notifications and statistics. Nothing would make my breakfast better, but I surely cannot be the only one who would pay more for a device like that. Maybe I am..


We bought a set of Speed Queens a couple of years ago and they've worked out pretty well so far. No IoT crap. Not cheap, but not really more than, say, a Bosch or something of that ilk.

For a toaster, what you need to do is recreate the Greatest Toaster of All Time, the Sunbeam T-20. (And then after you do that, recreate the Sunbeam CG-1 waffle iron.)


Or the old-school KitchenAid mixers


https://www.hobartcorp.com/products/food-prep/mixers/n50-5-q...


any small kitchen appliance that says "ask for a quote" is probably gonna be outta my hobby kitchen/cooking budget


Yeah, an N50 is around $4500. A Kitchenaid is like 1/10th of that. The original KA was the domestic version of the Hobart.


I think this is why entrepreneurship immediately has people thinking of tech startups over anything else, because it's one of the few remaining forms of entrepreneurship in the purest, rawest sense: a single scrappy individual creating outsized value with limited resources. A guy, his laptop, and an internet connection, with almost no red tape in his way.

Regulatory capture & gratuitous litigation has made true entrepreneurship impossible in many domains. It's state-endorsed oligopoly of heirs, heiresses, and corporations.


Any gals?


I think you are greatly over-estimating how many people would be willing to pay the cost of a North American made toaster. This would require an absolute ton of capital to do it on anything above a craft scale. The challenges of design, testing, certification (very important for a device that could burn your house down), manufacturing, supply chain, and support that are all specialized careers in themselves.

I've got more than decade of experience in designing products that are built in North America. I wouldn't touch a project like this unless it had a team of people with the proven manufacturing experience heading it up and some very convincing numbers about the commercial viability of the product because I don't believe they exist. There is good reason why the market only has commercial kitchen grade devices available.


> I think you are greatly over-estimating how many people would be willing to pay the cost of a North American made toaster.

Who wants a $75+ toaster just because it was "Made In USA"? Is it going to make toast better than a $15 toaster "Hecho In Mexico" or whatever other country? Even making the infrastructure to make a toaster would not do much in the way of increasing the manufacturing abilities in the US. What could it do if the War Powers Act were invoked?

Or, am I just way too much of a simpleton to be able to see potential?


Dualit toasters are over £100 in the UK and are pretty popular. We have one that is over 15 years old and still working.


I would by a $75+ toaster that:

- was made in a free Democratic country

- is of quality

I often pay a premium for such items.


I think a Dualit is what you want.

I have a 4 slice Dualit[1] I bought in 2004 and it still works perfectly.

It's an unchanging point of reliability in our kitchen.

The Classic model is basically an old catering toaster design from the 1950s. So it has "anti-features" that make it suitable for a commercial setting where you're making lots of toast to order. e.g. you can pop the bread to check it without resetting the timer and there's no spring to wear out.

As far as I'm concerned the high quality toaster, made in a free democratic country, is a solved problem.

1. https://www.dualit.com/collections/classic-range


very cool, will probably patronize them next I'm looking for a toaster. Might even make for a nice wedding gift.


I am sure you can do this in Taiwan, Korea, Japan. There must some high end makers onshore.


> was made in a free Democratic country

Why is this important to you? If civilians are oppressed by a government, I'm all the MORE willing to support the civilians to do what they want to be doing, and if making the world's best toaster is what they want to be doing I will more than happily pay them for it and help them live the life they want in spite of whatever regime they are in.

It wasn't their fault they were born into a political mess and while I understand the desire to financially hurt oppressive regimes, I'm not in favor of doing so in ways that also punish civilians who are just trying to live a happy life.


People pay hundreds of dollars for toasters already. This is another entry in that market with a marketing angle of being made in the U.S.A. which is important to a lot of U.S. consumers.


I much rather buy something American generally, and certainly from the perspective of a higher quality product designed to last.


Id pay hundreds for a toaster built like a tank

Not because I need that, I just enjoy overly heavy things


Why not but one of these? Ours has been going strong for 7 years now https://www.dualit.com/products/2-slice-newgen


Great machine, my parents have it, they love it and I love it. Still, I pondered about buying one too, but at 160€ it was a tough sell because we barely make 2 toasts a week. In the end I took a Russel Hobbes made in china for half the price. I kinda regret it because it's bad quality, but for our use it's ok.


I’ve used my Dualit almost daily since 1992. Still in tip-top condition, though it has had two sets of new heating elements at a cost of about £30 each time.


Do I have the product for you!

https://www.amazon.com/Tungsten-Cube-1-5-One-Kilo/dp/B00XZBI...


The thing about heavy things is their sheer size. There's only so much counter space and cabinet storage. Then again, if you have the disposable cash to spend that kind of money on a toaster, you probably have a kitchen larger than the majority of people's apartment


My espresso machine would like a word. It's pretty compact yet weighs 17 kgs / 37.5 lbs due to essentially being a dense block of stainless steel, copper and brass.


This thing is amazing: https://www.breville.com/us/en/products/toasters/bta735.html...


People are paying $100's for dualit, smeg, the japanese toaster overs, and some of high end breville, cuisinart, etc.

There's a market. Not big perhaps. But it needs to be more than just 'made in America'.


It would be very difficult to make it 100% US made. At best it would be assembled in the US of global parts. Things like the cable, heating elements, plugs, etc. may all be non starters to source here.


It seems to me the opportunity lies up-stream, then? How are those elements non-starters and what would need to change in order for a viable domestic supply for these types of items to support industry?


Many times it's an environmental regulations thing. There are things you can do, manufacture in other countries that you cannot here. It's just like textiles, much of mineral and other heavy metal refining, etc.

If anything, you'd build a plant in Mexico to do that stuff, then put it together here, like most appliance manufacturers do.


I think many Americans want to buy Made-in-the-USA products. Some evidence of that are websites, Reddit groups, etc dedicated to helping people find those products. I think it’s generally understood by these consumers that the price will be higher. And I don’t think it needs to be premium either.

There’s a market for knit hats made in the USA. I doubt the quality assurance or price could compete with a factory from Asia, but they still sell. Partly because Americans want to support American businesses. Not the same as a toaster, but I can see consumer demand being similar.


A lot of people say they want something until they have to pay for it. Then suddenly they change their minds because invariably it costs more than the cheapest alternative or some other excuse.

Sure, some people will still buy it, but it will be a tiny fraction of those who said they wanted the product.


Some might, many I think you're dreaming: but that's a market to study. End of the day, americans might want to use their money for more important things than origin of manufacture, and they'd be smart to throw the paper money the government prints at Chinese underpaid labour giving them actual toasters in exchange, rather than give it to each other.

Don't forget, when you buy a toaster from China, you're basically making them bleed and sweat on it for nothing more than your currency they can only use to buy back stuff from you, if you'll allow it. It's a very good deal, so good US consumers should increase their chinese imports rather than decrease it. Or next thing they know, they'll be the ones sweating in sweatshops soldering around toasters for capital-rich Shanghaiese.


I disagree. The high end of the market is a proven niche and the target high-end buyer has demonstrated a willingness to spend freely on premium grade products.

The is a reason why LVMH (Moët Hennessy Louis Vuitton) is one of the most successful and valuable companies in the world.

I'm not saying it's easy. Any business endeavor, regardless of product market fit, still requires execution. Easier said than done, but many an entrepreneur has proven their critics wrong.

Americans are known for their willingness to take business risk and fail then pick themselves up and try again. Makes life exciting and worth living.

But that said, I'm not going to buy "American Made" just because it is, i'm going to buy "Quality Made" and if it happens to be a domestic manufacturer than all the better!


> I disagree. The high end of the market is a proven niche and the target high-end buyer has demonstrated a willingness to spend freely on premium grade products.

Are you saying there is a proven market for luxury toasters?

While in general this is true I think "premium" grade home appliances generally top out around twice the cost of mid-range (I'm thinking vacuums, ovens, refrigerators etc where you compare similar capacity). This probably isn't a sufficient premium to cover the overheads.

Coffee machines are probably an exception here.

I'm not educated about the toaster market - are they more like microwaves or more like coffee machines?


> Are you saying there is a proven market for luxury toasters?

There’s a proven luxury market for literally anything. Just look at the $399 Wolf Toaster, which coincidentally is made in the U.S. This is the same brand that makes the famous Wolf Ranges.

https://wolfgourmet.com/store/countertop-appliances/four-sli...


Wow, I did a bunch of searching and this company did not come up. I don’t know how I missed this.

It’s pretty ugly considering the price.

I just learned about Dualit because of this thread, they make something very similar to the vision I have in my head, except it’s made in the UK instead of the US.

I was picturing basically recreating something like the Sunbeam T-20.


> recreating something like the Sunbeam T-20

I got a vintage Sunbeam toaster recently, and in the process I found this guy who restores vintage Sunbeam toasters for almost $300!

https://www.timstoasters.com/

That's not including the toaster itself, which generally runs somewhere around $100 on eBay.

It makes me wonder if it's a better business to restore old toasters (and even other kitchen gear) rather than to make new ones. I haven't used his services ($300 is quite a bit more than I'd like to spend), but it seems like he goes to great lengths to fix up these toasters, even ordering custom power cords from a wire supplier. I bet it would be easier to start off recreating some replacement parts rather than manufacturing a whole toaster.


> I got a vintage Sunbeam toaster recently, and in the process I found this guy who restores vintage Sunbeam toasters for almost $300!

This is great!


i am just going to drop this here:

How to design an actually good toaster with lessons from the 1940's

From Technology Connections:

https://youtu.be/bLk1cjZ4ll0


> Wow, I did a bunch of searching and this company did not come up. I don’t know how I missed this.

It happens.

> It’s pretty ugly considering the price.

Aesthetic is very subjective, people probably purchase the Wolf toaster because the red knobs match their Wolf stove. That said it is very modern and if you also made an art deco stove to match the toaster you’re imagining you may have found a new market.

> I just learned about Dualit because of this thread, they make something very similar to the vision I have in my head, except it’s made in the UK instead of the US.

Dualit is a great brand with a great product.

> I was picturing basically recreating something like the Sunbeam T-20.

To be fair the Dualit reminds me of a more modern Sunbeam.

Really if you have the time and the resources to manufacture a toaster, do it, expect a failure, and if it’s successful great, at the very least you’ll have learned something new.


Suggested Retail Price: $599!


I mean products like this are basically a grift on rich people and I guess I'm fine with that.

My toaster cost like $30 or something and it still works fine after 10 years. I didn't even research it, just grabbed a random one at a store.


There's also scope for improvements. For one I want my toaster to be crumb and grease free in 10 seconds.


Vitamix blenders are 8-10x the cost of a normal blender and have a cult like following. With the right branding home appliances can also double as a status symbol in American kitchens.


> Vitamix blenders are 8-10x the cost of a normal blender

"Normal" isn't a particularly useful label here, and Vitamix aren't 8-10x when you compare like-for-like (in terms of capacity and other features).

The Wirecutter recommendations[1] (which is a pretty decent way of seeing what the market is like) are:

Our Pick: Vitamix 5200, $397

Runner Up ("A more-affordable but less-durable blender"): Oster Versa Pro Series Blender, $280

Also Great: Cleanblend Blender, $165

Budget pick: KitchenAid K150 3 Speed Ice Crushing Blender, $100

This is the typical market dynamic. The high end (Vitamix) is a bit more than twice the mid-range option, and then there is a long tail going way way down.

I agree a $1300 blender (ie, 8 * $165) is a luxury play. But Vitamix seems more just a normal high-end quality play rather than luxury. Their most expensive blender is $729 list price[2] but comes with a bunch of extra features (wireless jug detection?!) to justify the cost. Luxury brands don't try to justify costs: the cost is the feature.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-blender/

[2] https://www.vitamix.com/us/en_us/shop/smart-system-blenders


There is a very proven market for luxury kitchen implements. And there are actually "high end" toasters


> premium grade products.

Premium grade != Made in USA

Here's a $200+ toaster I was seriously considering buying at one point. It is not made in the USA, and most made-in-USA stuff sucks honestly

https://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-Electric-ST1-T-Toaster-ult...


Yeah it’s a pretty nice toaster.


Isn't that a griddle?


> Toaster which burns 1 sheet of ultimate


> Americans are known for their willingness to take business risk and fail then pick themselves up and try again. Makes life exciting and worth living.

Having the world's largest pool of investment capital and one of the most liberal bankruptcy systems in the world also helps. If there's anything Americans are more willing to do than risk losing their own money, it's to risk losing other people's money :)

> The is a reason why LVMH (Moët Hennessy Louis Vuitton) is one of the most successful and valuable companies in the world.

It very much isn't because they sell premium quality products. They sell luxury products. Luxury branding has very little to do with product quality or performance. Also, the US doesn't have a competitive advantage in manufacturing home appliances. They actually have a competitive disadvantage, as the most capable manufacturing capacity for these products doesn't exist in the US anymore.


> It very much isn't because they sell premium quality products. They sell luxury products. Luxury branding has very little to do with product quality or performance.

This!! 100% true.

For luxury products the cost is the feature.


What are the numbers for production scale (aka above craft)? Like, a thousand? A million?


I am a Software Engineer like you. I got started in making physical products in 2017 first with 3d printing, and today I do design for manufacturing.

This might surprise some here, but if you can do 100% of the design and get good at it, it's possible to bootstrap a hardware company, even as a solo founder. I know it because I've done it.

However I intentionally started with physical products with no electronics in them. I also tried manufacturing in the USA initially but quickly realized it to be uneconomical and too slow, especially for bootstrapped consumer products.

My advice: 1. make a breadboard prototype @ home & design the product on your computer 2. have prototype parts made in China until you are satisfied with the final assembly 3. once you have pre-order volume, have the molds & dies made in China, import the tooling in the USA and setup your own shop.

The other thing is getting good at Industrial design takes a few years, it's not necessarily intuitive -- you have to understand the processes that you are designing for and get good at making drawings and hiring shops. It won't happen in a year unless you just focus on one part/process, so I would team up with someone who has that experience.

Feel free to contact me, info on my profile, happy to chat & help out.


> get good at making drawings and hiring shops

What is “hiring shops?”


Machining & Prototyping shops or "on-demand manufacturers". That involves choosing a region, evaluating the options/making a list, contacting a few and having a NNN ready for them to sign, getting 3-4 quotes for every parts in different MOQs, managing information on a need-to-know basis (to have some level protection beyond your NNN), managing these relationships etc. There is a lot more as the processes move to die/mold making as you go up in quantities and these have their own design requirements & ownership agreements.


OK now I'm starting to think we live in the matrix - I've spend the last 24 hours (unemployed currently, you see) looking at toasters and designs, with the same idea. And because my toaster just broke.

The state of toasters seems quite dire. Most are basically the same mechanism internally with different style covers.

Some quick learnings/thoughts:

- why are they open at the top? Some expensive Japanese toasters are more like grills or ovens, and sealing in steam seems to be key to their hyped results.

- commercial toasters and some like west bend have 'drop thru' toasting, where the toast drops out of the bottom when done instead of popping up. Nice design.

- Two slot toasters always power both slots even when toasting one slice.

- Many toasters don't allow you to change the timer mid-toast. I mean you can change it, but it doesn't do anything until next cycle. Also few indicate how much time is left.

- crumb trays don't work for many toasters, they're too narrow compared with all the places crumbs fall.

- expensive 'old school' toasters like Dualit just don't have the features, and are too clunky.

- the toasters with windows toast much more slowly (use tube heaters instead of a 'grid' of nichrome) and the window is useless anyway since the heater element makes everything orange.

- One thing I find amusing is some reviewers are testing these $100,$200 toasters with regular supermarket chorleywood bread. I mean at least toast some actual bread, not foam.


> - One thing I find amusing is some reviewers are testing these $100,$200 toasters with regular supermarket chorleywood bread. I mean at least toast some actual bread, not foam.

If you didn't make the biga, poolish, or starter, it's not really bread. It’s just processed wheat product. </pointless elitism>


  <pointless comment ... />
A $200 toaster is already elitist, especially given that they don't seem to actually toast any better than the cheapest models. So why test with 'poor people's bread'? lol.

Seriously though, I have a bread machine, maybe the cheapest model (lidl equivalent) which I love because of how easy it is to repair, and I make my own bread with little effort for maybe 1/2 the price of supermarket bread, and a world of difference in quality.


  <pointless comment^3 ... />
I'm actually serious about what counts as bread and what is just processed wheat product.

Bread machines don't qualify, unless you're just using them to proof the dough.


oh ok sorry, I thought it was sarcasm.

Well I agree, and also disagree. Bread-machine bread is fine, esp. if you change the program, to proof overnight instead of over an hour or whatever. Maybe not as good as hand-made sourdough with a carefully curated cultivated starter, etc, etc, but for the low effort involved it's a massive improvement over chorleywood supermarket bread.


As a user, I'v noticed these:

> - Two slot toasters always power both slots even when toasting one slice.

> - crumb trays don't work for many toasters, they're too narrow compared with all the places crumbs fall.

Always thinking what a waste of energy when only toasting a single slice.

> - Many toasters don't allow you to change the timer mid-toast. I mean you can change it, but it doesn't do anything until next cycle. Also few indicate how much time is left.

Never knew time-left could be implemented, but would definitely be a nice feature.

Only 1 of these features are enough for the consumer to consider buying this new toaster.


As others have commented, toasters are already highly cost-optimized, and 'perfected', in terms of economics, marketability, etc.

Even the cheapest toaster works well enough, and most of the more advanced features either don't really work consistently or are not compelling. So to command a higher price, it's really a veblen good, some kind of status symbol etc, and any extra features need be 'backup' for that; "oh no, we didn't buy it just to status-signal, it has this feature ...".

I think there are a couple of features that could be attractive though. Faster toasting. And if the reviews etc are to be believed, steam-toasting like the Japanese toasters. More efficient could be a thing - only power the slots necessary, and enclose them to stop the heat escaping. These features seem mutually supporting.


Maybe I'm just old fashioned but nothing you mentioned there excited me at all about toasters other than the "sealing in moisture" part. That seems like something practical that could be value added (make you say "hmmm") to the common denominator here; middle-class person who wants really nice toaster and is willing to pay say up to $150 for one made in the good ol' USA. Maybe it's because I'm a gen x person


> why are they open at the top?

Because of convection, heat rises, and allows the non-toasting part of the frame, etc., to remain safe to the touch. It would be very bad to take an existing toaster and try to operate it on its side.

Plus, the simplest way to get even toasting is even heat on both sides of the bread (except when you do Bagels).


Yet ovens are not open at the top.

I can see an argument about hot air rising, leading to unevenness, or about hot air drying out the bread, but 'the toaster would get hot' doesn't make sense to me.

Regarding horizontal toasting, that is something I had in mind. I might hack my broken toaster to try this out.


Have you looked at other high quality toaster makers abroad?

Dualit is in the UK and has been manufacturing high quality, hand built toaster for a long time, but most consumers would balk at the prices they ask for their appliances and I doubt you as a startup would be able to manufacture a toaster any cheaper.

https://www.dualit.com/collections/classic-toasters https://www.dualit.com/collections/spares

Frankly, I don't even own one, in spite of being a champion of the "buy it once" mentality. But it's on the bucket list.


My in-laws had a Dualit toaster. I am convinced this brand only survives in the market because people think they want one to signify that they've "made it", like getting an Aga.

The incredibly loud mechanical timer drove us all nuts. We always forgot to change the heating element (#slices) selector, so invariably ended up with one uncooked piece of bread. The pop up function is beefy but difficult to get escape velocity on small items. They eventually ditched it and went back to a £20 long slice Cookworks from Argos. They still have the Aga (also bloody annoying).


I have a dualit toaster and absolutely love it! You can get spare parts for it and repair it yourself. To me it's worth the 3x premium of its the only one I ever have to buy in my life. Yes, the timer is a bit loud and you have to think about how done you want the toast ever time, but it becomes automatic, i.e. I just know what the right setting is for a bagel.


I’ve owned a Dualit for about 10 years now and never had any issues with it.

I personally like avoiding buying from manufacturers in places without modern labor laws and I frequently buy American made products, but for me anywhere in Europe is equivalent to America.

I would guess that the group of people for whom made in England is not sufficient and who would also spend $400 on a toaster is probably pretty tiny.


The good thing about a Dualit is that, because (with repairs) they last approximately forever, you can always buy one second-hand.

I paid about 3x what I would normally pay for a toaster for one on eBay. I expect it to last much more than 3x as long (a decent standard toaster usually lasts us around 3 years before something breaks unrepairably).


Let me put this into perspective as an outsider:

``` I have been looking at starting a business and am a Dentist with lots of experience.

I also love learning about masonry and construction, but have never actually tried building anything.

Lately, I have been interested in buying things that are made locally. One construction item that I would like to invest in is a brick house; I did a lot of searching online, and this seems to be something that has a decent amount of demand.

There does seem to be a market opportunity for high-quality houses made locally.

My question is: as a dentist with zero experience building physical things, should I try building brick houses? I have plenty of space to set up a small operation and a little capital to get started. What are the pitfalls? Has anyone with a dental background moved into constructing physical items like this? ```

Don't expect your former job knowledge to be of much use for this endeavor.

This does not mean "Don't do it!" but rather "Be aware of the scope!".

Good luck!


To mix in with other's comments.

It's always good to have a target in sight, but building a physical product with no experience will be a long, expensive journey.

I make physical and digital products as a consultant, the first thing I tell entrepreneurs is get to your first prototype. Not even an MVP, just something functional with the core features. Some times these are partial prototypes that work out various sub-systems. In this case, the actuation mechanisms, the heating elements with power, digital / physical controls, etc.

After that, the real work begins. You need to get to a complete working prototype. The other thing I like to say is just because someone else has made it, or something similar, doesn't mean I know how to make it. It just means it's technically feasible.

If you start looking at the parts of the toaster, you need to electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, material science, embedded software engineering, probably some industrial design and user experience design if you get that far. Even user research if you want to better understand the user and market.

Once you get to a first iteration, and typically before, you need to engage UL and FCC, usually through third parties to start testing for certifications and engineering refinement. You also need to start engaging contract manufacturers to understand how to work within limitations of their capabilities and your design.

A toaster may seem simple, but I assure it is not.

Then couple all of this with legal considerations as mentioned in other comments and whether or not it's even a practical business model. This is quite a large endeavor.

But if you are going to do anything, start small.


no, a toaster is actually pretty simple lol.

the issue is that production at scale for millions of customers, for practically anything at all, is not simple. all of the things you point to are true, but they are true of many other goods and products.

also, you are assuming they need or care about profit.


Let me rephrase that. A toaster is functionally simple, but designing, engineering, manufacturing, and creating a business selling toasters is not.

Also I'm making the assumption it is for profit since they started off with "I'm wanting to start a business"


Scaling for a million customers is the easy part.

Finding a million customers that want to pay a premium price for a product that your competitors make for 1/4 the price in another country is the hard part.

And if you plan for that scale and don't find the million customers, you now have a million dollar toaster.


If they don't care about profit, it's not a business, it's a hobby.


Not necessarily?

There's nothing to say that you need to make a profit. If all the employees are paid a decent amount, all your other costs are covered, and there's revenue unspent, you could just reduce the prices a bit.

The idea that any enterprise needs to make a profit (let alone an endlessly increasing profit) is a destructive fallacy.


A profit is one thing. That's what I'm referring to. This is in fact necessary for a business that hopes to stay in business.

A ever increasing profit is another entirely, and I agree with you. I love the book "small giants, companies that choose to be great instead of big"


Given all of the regulatory obstacles and logistical headaches surrounding manufactured products these days, I personally feel that mechanical/electrical entrepreneurship is a path to ruin.

Since you're in software already, would it not make more sense to create a strictly-digital product? Keep your day job, work at your own pace on software products (ideally with a partner), and see whether the market actually wants what you're selling.


Enter Elon Musk with Tesla, SpaceX, Starlink, & Neuralink... he seems to have it figured out


Doesn't only one of those companies actually make any profit so far? And even then, its stock price still regarded as likely over-valued given the P/E ratios of any of its peers?


And the only thing that seems to be ruining him is the pure software play (Twitter)


When you change a mostly-working product, failure is probable. Especially when you attempt to monetize and politicize in a space that is diametrically against those goals.


Well he only went into these after making his fortune on paypal.


For every success story, there are 9+ failures.


I'd say give it a virtual try :)

Fusion 360 is a horrible cloud lock-in, but it's also cheap and feature complete. Custom injection parts are expensive, but thin sheet metal you can cut at your local hackerspace. And now just try if you can design the mechanical functionality using only off-the-shelf screws and sheet metal parts with easy bend sequence.

The control stuff is easy and cheap. KiCad is your friend.

Once you have a prototype showing the rudimentary mechanical parts, you'll have a much better idea of the work and costs involved. Plan for about 8x mark-up from production costs to end-user price.

And last but not least, many projects die because they cannot access the relevant market cheaply enough. I used to sell bikinis online, which was fun and profitable in the beginning. But once all those other boutique fashion brands started spamming Instagram, acquiring customers became too expensive so the entire operation wasn't profitable anymore. So try to estimate how much it'll cost you to advertise to prospective customers.


Two alternatives:

1. Design a machine that uses air streams to eventually dehydrate the outer faces of the bread, then shoots puffs of pre-fabbed soot/butter mix on the result. Bonus: market for add-on soot/butter packs.

2. Design a machine that is by default always on fire, which will temporarily reduce the heat to a glowing red when you hit a button to make toast. That way failures merely return the device back to its original burning state (albeit with a temporary burnt toast smell).


Try doing a Kickstarter. Over the years, I've spent way more money than I should have on Kickstarter projects that are highly specific and non-refundable. Both of these characteristics will likely be important to leverage as you are starting out this venture. Kickstarter targeted advertising through Facebook and Instagram seem to be very good at getting your product in front of people willing to buy it - even if it's an expensive American-made toaster.

Once you have a prototype, you may want to consider getting a review by Technology Connections. He's done multiple on toaster design novelty:

https://youtu.be/zLFG068HtgM?si=LkiWH2n8mtZJ6JBK

https://youtu.be/1OfxlSG6q5Y?si=eOFYQRVUNq-zqFaS

https://youtu.be/2vcdbtAca0Y?si=iKY-Y2CjhoABQeWd

https://youtu.be/bLk1cjZ4ll0?si=lZt3zngxOmeHdN22


You appear to have your heart set on toasters, and that's fine. A coffee roaster for the prosumer, however, strikes me as a more interesting product to make. I think there's still an opportunity to make a better or at least different product, and the area has been heating up recently. It's a lot like a toaster, if you think about it. And there's more opportunity for software and hardware integration ("roast profiling").

I also have a question: if a product is sold as a kit where the buyer performs the "final assembly", does that alleviate any of the burden with UL testing, FCC, or product liability?


Just here to give a ref to The Toaster Project[0] and its accompanied TED talk[1] from Designer Thomas Thwaites[2].

[0]: http://www.thetoasterproject.org/

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ODzO7Lz_pw

[2]: https://www.thomasthwaites.com/


I like to encourage you to go on this adventure to learn why a toaster made in USA could be the single most horrifying idea a founder can have. I would like to encourage you to become a founder and milk every insight out of this idea you can get. Don´t walk away now, go all in and learn in order to protect you from sinking years of your life into a bad idea (Spoiler: your next idea might be even worse)

1. research the cost of producing a production-ready physical product. You need millions of up-front investment and a couple of years of funding.

2. research how a toaster is sold. Spoiler: you need attention and access to a target audience. What would be your customer acquisition cost to sell 100K units?

3. what is the customer lifetime value of a person who bought your toaster? Spoiler: your competition might be a 10 USD made-in-china piece of crap, so people a willing to spend 25 USD on something that is not dead-on-arrival. How much do you need to charge for a made-in-USA toaster? 99 USD? 299 USD?

4. how much do you need to spend on branding and marketing to get the value of "made-in-USA" attached to the toaster? 10M? 50M?

5. how will your life look like, when you manage to pull this off to sell 10K toasters? My assumption: it will be a constant nightmare/living hell, as you now have a mountain of dept, high running costs and many people asking you to sell the next 100k toasters...


Slot toasters, or toaster ovens?

In an ironic way given your background, toaster ovens probably set you up against untenable competition: everybody who has ever built a toaster oven is currently jamming SBCs into them to run PID for "smart toasters". Prices are coming down and features are going up, plus these are product line extensions that create further price pressure on "non-smart toasters".

There could be room to do something interesting with slot toasters, which are sort of a forgotten category.


Maybe unrelated, but I have a Deciso DEC2752, which is an OPNsense firewall appliance. For some reason Deciso made it in the Netherlands instead of China or Taiwan. I don't know for sure how much cheaper, or more expensive it would be if it was Asian-made.

It's unique for sure. It's a bit pricey but other firewalls were less-than-statisfactory. Chinese Mini PC boxes were too little, Supermicro Front I/O boxes were too much. I don't exactly like Netgate's alternative either.


"Made in" laws can be "hacked." For example, I can purchase fully manufactured printed circuit board assemblies in Taiwan or China. I then ship those boards to Singapore where I load firmware and do all my testing. I can then say that the products were "Made in Singapore" because the value of the firmware is greater than the entire hardware BoM.

The above example comes from a colleague who used to work in the SSD business.


As someone who builds and designs hardware for music as a hobby since a decade (but to a somewhat industrial standard): Unless you have history in hardware or someone with a lot of experience in it, I'd advice against it, if your plan is to earn a living. If your plan is to learn something, go on.

Hardware is, well, hard. You will figure out why things cost the amount they do, and you will wonder why, till you find all the tricks manufacturers pull off – with the most important one being economies of scale. There will be many prototypes, and sometimes you will end with something that is extremely cool, but entirely to expensive for what it does. Sometimes things will fail for unknown reasons. There are tons of regulations your device will need to respect (and you need to know them).

Why don't you start building the toaster in your sparetime and figure out whether that object is a thing that could sit on the right spot in the market with some automation? If the answer is that you lack the hardware skill, I would caution against moving forward unless you got the market side all figured out and know your product would work financially. Then this would be about finding a person that fills your gaps.


Try to make one. Somewhere you won't set fire to. Fire risk would be my biggest fear with going for a toaster. Make sure you comply with safety regulations and get liability insurance...

Don't listen if people say it's too hard. They may well be right, or not, but they don't know whether you're the right person to figure out a new angle or not and it's easier to try something new before you learn all the ways it can go wrong. Learn those after you've made a couple of (cheap prototype) attempts

Don't read up too much on the how before you try. You want to learn how the competition works, but sometimes interesting realisations come from trying to figure it out yourself first without anything maki g you reject your apporoach out of hand.

But it will be harder than you think.

Just make sure you don't underestimate the marketing. Making a good product is less than half the job - especially if you're going to compete in a space where you're unlikely to be able to compete on price, quality isn't enough - you also need a convincing story about the quality.

I think in this case, a story about why you've made surprising realisations about a modern take of a return to something sturdy, reliable and simple might be powerful.

"I just wanted...(but modern products ...)" is powerful. Your product might or might not actually be simpler, but if you're going for people nostalgic for US manufacturing (which is larger than ever before, just employing fewer relative to output), then selling the idea that something has been lost with modern devices allows for both pushing price expectations and getting customers to forgive eccentricities that otherwise might be considered issues as long as the story justifies it.


I love this idea and the competition is fierce from Chinese companies. Check out Robam’s combi ovens, like this one: https://robamliving.com/collections/steam-oven/products/roba...

This thing can toast, steam, bake, and air fry. It is objectively good at all of those functions, and it is used every day.

The only thing it doesn’t have is the ability to add custom programs, but most of the built in functions can be used for recipes other than what they suggest.

That being said, if I could get the same thing at the same price point, made in USA, I would.

I also would like a properly engineered waffle iron that is made in the USA. The whole waffle iron market today is dogshit compared to the waffle Iron I got my mom in the 90s. It still works, it is easy to use and clean.

Somehow a similar design is no longer available on the open market and the options are all variations on trash.


How reliable are these things? Seems like it packs a lot heat into quite a small package.


We use ours at least 2x/day, and we are about 6 months in. It gets rid of heat well and heats up quick.

My biggest gripe is I can't turn down the volume of the beeps it makes.


Maybe off-topic, but having recently repaired a cheap-ass toaster, maybe some insights:

When you get a cheap toaster, they will probably have a design flaw: when the toaster pops up, there will be arcing. This means that the toaster will only last a few years. My repair was in this section. The heat eventually desoldered the mains pad on the PCB. You can maybe repair it once and get another year out of it, after that the PCB will be very charred and brittle. The fact that the PCB gets toasted a little bit every time probably isn't great for your health either, so I think I wouldn't recommend repairing toasters with this flaw, unless you have some clever plan to get around this problem. My new toaster is a name-brand one. And I don't see any light when it pops up, so maybe it's fine. I've also seen other name-brand toasters that were only replaced because they got filthy -- due to improper maintenance I must add :p

My toaster was mostly made of metal that was bent into the shape of a toaster, plus plastic on the outside. To disassemble it, you have to use pliers to bend some interlocking metal bits into a different shape. That should be pretty cheap to manufacture! The pop-op logic was very simple, not even sure if it used a chip or not. If it did, probably nothing digital, maybe just a 555. Single-sided cheap circuit board.

I want the following functions: stop button, extra long button, short button, single slot operation.

Most people are probably comfortable with a toaster that just lets you adjust the duration. But if you add sensors that can reliably(!) detect how much browner your toast or bread has become compared to when it was inserted, go for it. If that sensor goes haywire after two years, then don't bother IMO. If you can add odor or smoke sensors that react when the toast is burnt, that might be nice too. (Course they might go off when you run the toaster for the first time to burn off the lubricant(?), so that may add some complexity)


https://www.danielsen.com/jokes/objecttoaster.txt


> as a software engineer with 0 experience building physical things, should I try building this?

It is almost impossible to have a fully "US made" toaster. I expect any toaster will have quite a few "overseas made" components. At best, you might make "Assembled in US" toasters. You already received enough info on potential challenges in manufacturing toasters.

Instead, a good alternative solution might be to focus on making add-ons for toasters built by others. What are the concerns toaster users have? Identify those and see how you can solve some of those using software and hardware. For example, a few concerns might be around making a perfect toast or safety: how not to over-burn toasts, how to turn off toaster when smoke started to come out, etc. Solve a problem that toaster users might have.


This is pretty good advice. Build an accessory: - Sensors / Alarms: a la phone accessories - Cleaning: ??? - Coolness factor: Jibbitz for Crocs

I recently bought a USB cable with a tiny power display on one end and it is the most useful and cool thing I have owned in a while.


I wonder if there is a way to engineer a 'smart' toaster (no WiFi or major chip mind you) that could improve the detection of burning. Maybe the use of improved PID controller / ability to brown to your desired 'shade' of toastiness. Would be interesting to see!


There is already a smart toaster that toasts the toast according to the desired browning level and not simply according to time. It even manages completely without high-tech. The only catch is that the model is 70 years old and is no longer in production. But there is a great video from Technology Connections on YouTube about it: The Antique Toaster that's Better than Yours Link: https://youtu.be/1OfxlSG6q5Y?feature=shared


I would love a toaster where the dial is a gradient from white to brown to black, and it uses a reflectometer (several?) to toast until the bread is the right color.


That was invented nearly 100 years ago, and was discontinued in the 90s (and the commenter above you linked to a video about it). I advocate for doing that kind of design upthread. In my personal opinion, they died out about 10-15 years before the new wave of high end kitchen implements would have justified the higher price.


Fellow hacker here who invented a physical product I brought to market: No.

I sold it first chance I got because no software engineer wants to be in “manufacturing hell”.


You could bring this https://www.theverge.com/22801890/sunbeam-radiant-control-to... back to market.


I was confused by the comments here. Surely someone is going to post the Technology Connections video on the toaster. I see you did it indirectly. That video is great.


all your skills are moot if you don't know how to sell. Don't make the common mistake of "iterating in the basement" and when you need to goto market you flop around, spend too much time on a website and kinda expect things to "just happen".

I would not start ANYTHING before you figure out if you like this part of it, otherwise its just a "expensive hobby".

To figure this out, find something on Alibaba that costs a nickel that you think has some value, buy 10.000 units of it - figure out the shipping and import rigamarole and try selling it however you think works best.

if you like that experience and find it fun, and can "hack" it - return to your toaster.


10,000.


I don't really get these "Made in <our country>" slogans. For livestock/plants/food/cuisine, or well known existing domestic brands, sure. But new businesses just using nationalism as a selling point is strange. That foreign land may have better standards for safety/manufacturing as your own. Fair profit lands with your local government regardless where stuff came from. Materials travelling around the world: what ensures your local craftsman will not use foreign materials or tools. A world where most production is localised is more environment damaging than the distributed economy we have now.


> That foreign land may have better standards for safety/manufacturing as your own.

That is very hard to believe (at least if you live in Europe or US).


I have seen the lack of an American made toaster appear in several venues, so there is pretty clearly some interest in this topic. How many would buy one is another matter.

I worked for a company that made customized versions of relatively basic electrical devices and they didn't spend much money on it (couple thousand for the prototypes and the devices they disassembled to copy). The one pitfall they did note was that being the best in quality was difficult and expensive and focused on being valuable in another niche.

I am not sure that you need to make a good toaster. It may be sufficient to have an American toaster, even if it is no better than a typical toaster.


That is really interesting and it mirrors my intuition: there are 0 toasters on the market that have "Made in the USA" stamped on them. I think that there may be a decent sized market of people who will pay extra for that stamp on a normal household toaster.


In the UK context, there seem to still be at least on "local" company: https://www.dualit.com/collections/toasters

You can get NA versions, but they aren't cheap.

I'm not sure why that company survived and US variants didn't.


I used one of these at a hotel recently and the toast quality was second to none. When my current toaster bites the dust I'll be investing in one of these. I'm fed up with buying cheap stuff that's designed to break after 3 years.


There are hundreds of toasters made in USA, but they're mostly commercial models because that is the only market willing to spend enough on a toaster to absorb the labor costs.


It would be nice to have an AI powered toaster that can provide me with early morning toast and light conversation.


Go on, start imagining. You wake up to make your toast, press the button down, and see:

* Sorry, you must complete a critical system update before proceeding.

* Wi-Fi unavailable, please check the network.

* Your AccuToast (TM) subscription has expired. Please update your details on the web.

* Non-genuine bread detected, please ensure you purchase AccuToast (TM) certified bread.

* Tampering detected, contact manufacturer.


Actually I was thinking more along the lines of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRq_SAuQDec


This happened with Pantelligent, except it just went dark because of a patent lawsuit. The app stopped working and the device became useless.


> Sorry, you must complete a critical system update before proceeding.

backup systems!

> Wi-Fi unavailable, please check the network.

Ethernet and satellite connectivity!

> Your AccuToast (TM) subscription has expired. Please update your details on the web.

bread delivery service! (like hp ink)

> Non-genuine bread detected, please ensure you purchase AccuToast (TM) certified bread.

Right, you cant just laser the images onto anything.

> Tampering detected, contact manufacturer.

A flying toaster that returns to the mother-ship when poorly treated.

edit:

The true American toaster:

It slices a whole loaf of bread, deep fries it then sugar coats the slices in randomized blue white and red patterns with stars. It should be gold with a picture of Trump on the side.


Or wake up in the morning to find out the nightly OTA firmware update was bad and bricked your toaster.


Also, the AccuToast (TM) displays ads, to "help cover costs".


"The whole purpose of my existence is meaningless if you don't want toast."


Provided that blueprints are already finalized, and certain distribution eagerly awaits to consume the amount of product you intend to manufacture at the rate you intend to produce, it all boils down to raw materials and labor in an American fabrication/assembly facility.

When you do the math focused on the manufacturing task alone, you can come up with a baseline estimate on what it might cost to make each item and how that compares to what it will sell for, wholesale of course since this is just manufacturing.

This would be your "toaster baseline".

Now you may plan to produce an artisan product but toasters themselves are not only a commodity but the market has been saturated for quite some time.

You can't expect to compete with the mainstream on price or volume, but that's OK you're not going to be able to make that many to begin with.

Never mind how few you make, if you make money on every one, and through some excellent good fortune you can sell all you make, you will be profitable.

Whether that's enough profit in comparison to other oportunities, well you have your baseline to work from.

You might be able to find an alternative product (most likely addressing a completely different market), which can be produced at similar unit expenditures in similar facilities, but sell for a better price into its market in such a way as to be a much better choice. Maybe better off with something that's not a commodity, maybe so, you have to do the math.

If you're expecting the manufacturing phase alone to be a core value-adding operation.


I'd say you've found a slightly slower way of setting fire to your money


Than what?

Hardware burns capital way faster than software (in general).

Though it’s easier to spin BS reasons to burn billions on software maybe, since no one is expecting to actually hold the thing?


> Than what?

It's slightly slower than starting an airline or just making a giant money bonfire.


Compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Foundation_Burn_a_Million_Qu...


At least they got a famous art piece out of it.

All OP will have afterwards is a bunch of unsold toasters and a newfound appreciation for bankruptcy protection.


Well, OP would get a good story and life experience, too.


The same could be said about sticking your finger into a light socket. Less potential upside in that case though, hah.


No, you shouldnt learn how to build toasters. You should learn how to find people that build toasters, and have them build an MVP, take it to market see how it sells.


I don't know about toaster ovens but I've been considering if people would start building 'smart appliances' but with stock open source software. Eg A 'smart tv' with stock linux or something like that. For eg. I like Amazon echo as a device, but I don't like the Amazon software ecosystem around it. Could you produce an open device with the same hardware capabilities?


Oh my god, yes. I will buy a dishwasher if the controls are just a plain old ladder-logic PLC or something equivalently hackable.

All I want is to tweak a few programs according to my relative cost of water vs energy, my personal value of time, my typical dish dirtiness, etc. The built-in programs make all the wrong assumptions.

There's no reason I should need to contact a server in Virginia, much less China, to do that.

Also, to OP's point, a narrow-slot toaster. I don't eat bagels or texas toast, I don't need wide-slots that waste energy and take longer. I just want a plain old single-function narrow slot toaster, which is apparently even more rare than the mythical single-roll of toilet paper. I would _happily_ pay 5x for one made in the USA.


About a month ago, I bought a toaster for Christmas, and, while walking in the alley and checking prices offline and online, I was mesmerized by the price strategies. With quantities that toasters operate in, their production cost is around a few dollars, and I bought one for $50 without any digital features.

If you are planning to build one in the USA, you will probably need to tell yourself what "build in the USA" means. Is it PCB printing, PCB assembly, plastic production, mold production, cool design features, coil design, final assembly, or some combination of the above? You will be surprised to find some of the requirements to put "made in the X country."

I do product development professionally, so take the comment as my bias, but it is a light project to start with as there are minimum components, you can build the entire thing in the garage, and it is something that everyone around you can give feedback on. Almost like an art project.

Anyway, I would love to share any info you may find useful to start. Email in the profile, if you are interested.


Read the book first, in 2010 a UK man built one from scratch as best he could

http://www.thetoasterproject.org/page2.htm

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1568989970/


I don't think it's a good idea, for many reasons which are better-defined elsewhere in this discussion.

That said, if you do decide to do this, it would IMO be foolish not to contact your congressional delegation (probably state legislators too) and try to get something. On-shoring manufacturing is politically very en vogue in DC right now, and I wouldn't be surprised if you could get some kind of grant, tax credits, liability waiver, guaranteed government orders, or something else to "entice" you to do this in your state (maybe even shop around among states/municipalities and see if you can get them to outbid each other).

This isn't exactly pro-social behavior, but it will probably work, where "work" means you will be able to extract something, not that you will be able to turn your toaster business into a going concern.


This depends entirely on how much money you have to waste.

I'd suggest, at the very least:

* Hiring somebody who knows manufacturing to walk you through what you need to set this up.

* Figuring out the cost of building a toaster in the USA

* Figuring out the regulatory hurdles.

* Figuring out if the people who keep clamoring for a national toaster infrastructure are willing to pay the actual money that requires.

My experience is that a large number of people who profess to want built-in-USA want this only at a price point meeting current toasters. But with much better quality.

If I were to jump into this market, I'd seriously consider running this as a lifestyle luxury item business, charging the few true believers a fortune for a "bespoke toaster hand-made entirely in the U.S.A", build them to last forever, and then maybe automate and build out into the mid-range from there.

I'd still only do this with somebody with manufacturing knowledge working with/for me. And ideally with somebody else's money.


Physical objects are literally the worst thing to sell. As a fellow software developer I urge you to stay the hell away from hardware. So many things that can go wrong with a physical device that you can do nothing about.

Also, it’s expensive as hell getting the proper certification for whatever you’re making, even if it works well.


If you make one like the Sunbeam Automatic Beyond Belief toaster, and you can keep the price <$150, you've got at least one customer.

-edit- After thinking about this a little more, I could go higher than that price point. But higher than that and I'd want any non BIFL parts to be user serviceable/replaceable.


200 seems fair


Wish I could offer more than best wishes, but I am in a similar boat: pondering some product ideas while working as a SWE.

This line caught my attention - "I also love learning about mechanical engineering and manufacturing"

How do you go about that? Have you found any good books, YouTube videos, etc. that are accessible for us SWEs?


This may be a difference in learning preference, but I've always found the easiest way for me to learn about new topics was to jump into them directly. Supplemental reading could certainly help of course, so I apologize that I have nothing to provide in that area, but if you're interested in it I'd recommend just jumping in with simple projects and learning on your own from there- with assistance from just searching around for fundamentals on google. I hate to be the quote person, but I think this one fits perfectly; "The best time to plant a tree was 100 years ago, but the second best time is now" or "A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step". Ignoring the cliche quotes, I'd just say the best thing you can do is dive in without any direct guidance and navigate the unknowns yourself. At the end of the day, starting off in the wrong direction is better than not starting at all. Good luck on your adventure!


Thank-you!


Search for & take tours of community maker-spaces in your city. You’ll find people (often SWE) who switched over to 3D printing, metal working, robotics, wood working & more. They have classes, so you can get certified to use the tools - and you’ll just learn by hanging out, meeting fellow makers & checking out their projects. Best of luck on the journey - it’s a ton of fun.


Check out:

The secret life of machines.

Engineer guy

Tech ingredients

Asianometry

Fran's Lab

And soon mine!


I've been trying to buy a toaster for the last two months.

People seem to either get the cheapest models, or some get "the Smeg" or another expensive name brand that has the same designer product in a zillion colours.

There are a few mid-price models (like Bosch) that still seem to be manufactured "locally", but for some reason they are hard to find at the moment.

You can't compete with the stream of cheap crap from China (I'm not implying that all of those are bad; just brand labels slapped on random products). The question is if you can become "the Smeg" and have people pay extra for your name. That sort of brand recognition will take a lot of time and effort, and need to be aimed at a certain kind of customer that has both money and cares beyond the appliance's function.


>I also love learning about mechanical engineering and manufacturing, but have never actually tried making anything.

I strongly recommend you hire professionals for this. I've worked as a Product Manager for physical products. There is a gulf of knowledge between designing something in CAD and designing something that will endure the rigors of toasting for 20 years. The previous sentence doesn't even cover the gulf of knowledge between taking a prototype to a design that's meant for mass production.

I'm interested in creating a portfolio of open source appliances. Stuff that will last for life (or is at least repairable). If it's a "smart" applicance and open source, you don't need to worry about your appliance spying on you or being at the whims of a vendor who bricks your device for whatever reason.


"I'm interested in creating a portfolio of open source appliances."

Yes I'm very interested in that idea too. One thing I think is vital is to separate the UI and any smart features from the rest of the device. For example, cheap induction cookers have a single mcu which has the code for running the induction heater, and also runs the UI, with just a cheap display/button board as the physical interface.

This mcu package seems to be at the heart of a huge number of brands, which are all then stuck with the same terrible UI. If the ui was running on it's own mcu, talking spi or whatever to the main controller, makers could differentiate with their own UIs. And hackers could hack.


Ask yourself why you want something that is made in the US. I have long had the same bias, and I am trying to understand it myself. Is it perceived quality of the final object? Do you feel that the environmental impact of shipping is worth overcoming? Do you want to keep money in local communities? Do you just think Americans make things right? What’s your goal here.

Also read about the too numerous to count HW kickstarter projects that 10x their funding goal and then still never deliver.

Also go read everything [Bunnie Huang](https://www.bunniestudios.com/) has written.


Since toasting is a non starter, I've been wanting an heirloom quality artisan salad spinner, maybe you can look into that. Everything out there is plastic junk that breaks too fast. Where are all the stainless spinners???


A fairly obvious note, and aside from the technical discussions, 90% of your challenge will be marketing. You need to build a brand that exudes quality and value.

I have zero idea about marketing and branding, but it's damn hard/expensive.


Just add AI.


Find a way to bring back this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfxlSG6q5Y&t=0s


I came to the comments to post exactly that link :D


I'm curious what is a good quality toaster in your mind?

Also, why does it need to be "made in the USA"? There seems to be lots of expensive "high-end" toasters. Is your only setting point "made in the USA"? Does the population of people who care about "made in the USA" overlap with people who are likely to pay for this toaster vs the $19 toaster from target?

https://www.target.com/p/kitchensmith-by-bella-4-slice-toast...


If I had money and was looking for a high end toaster, I'd pay $200+ for a European toaster like SMEG. It'd be more for the aesthetics than the functionality.

When you're paying that much money for a functional item, you're buying into a story. When you have a SMEG appliance, you're buying a sophisticated identity and a conversation piece. You're telling people you appreciate Dieter Rams type industrial design.

Somehow a Made in Michigan toaster doesn't have the same cachet. Neither do Black and Deckers or Cuisinarts.

(that said, Breville from Australia is getting away charging $200 for its toasters)


I agree, and this is just a by-the-way comment about Smeg. I always assumed Smeg was a bargain-basement brand because of its espresso machines, which appear to be rebadged Delonghi devices. There's one model that looks like a clone of the Dedica for example.

As another commenter pointed out, coffee-makers are one area where people are willing to pay thousands, e.g. espresso machines made in Italy or Germany that are robust and largely authentic.*

*Even though many follow virtually the same design and are made from near-commodity parts.


A few thoughts.

1 - do it. Absolutely do it.

2 - I love being around first time entrepreneurs- they don’t know about the bumps ahead in the journey so they just plough through. This is a great thing. Once you’ve ploughed through, you learn about all of this and it either causes you to be too afraid to do another, or to try to warn everyone else off by describing how impossible it is (doesn’t work and doesn’t help), or you get the bug and keep building more and more. 3) You’ve identified what seems like an awesome opportunity. Go chase it. Don’t spend too much time talking. Endless talk is the death of entrepreneurial endeavors. Do more talk less. Sounds like a super fun opportunity during which you’ll learn so much along the way.

4) Two entrepreneur credos:

A) when you see an opportunity the door is already closing. Get moving. Did I mention more talk less do?

B) the universe is interesting. The moment you start on an endeavor, the people you need to be successful just come out of the woodwork. It’s like you become attuned to the universe. Just gotta pay attention. Sorry - sounds preachy, but I’ve found it to be true over and over again. It’s like they find you through the cosmos.

Don’t listen to the naysayers. Those who say it can’t be done should stand aside for those who are doing it.

Welcome to the entrepreneurial journey. Pretty much the most fun you can have in business.

All the best.


> as a software engineer with 0 experience building physical things, should I try building this?

No.

You’ll feel really bad when your homebrew toaster burns down somebody’s house and kills their kids.

There are very many fields you’d need expertise in to do this at all and you don’t seem to have much of an idea of what you don’t know. Getting hardware products off the ground is hard and requires tons of time and money. After all of that you’d have a really tough time selling anybody on the idea of buying your toaster which would have to be much more expensive than you imagine.

You would have to start on something way simpler.


All I can say is my biggest bugbear with toaster is the crumbs just all fall out despite having a way to catch/release them. So that is a good problem to solve.

Also make the slots wider. For things like Turkish bread.


People might _say_ they want something made locally, but when it comes to _spending_ money, they mostly care about price and quality, less about patriotism.

Compare the paper 'Prejudice is Free, but Discrimination has Costs' https://cdn.mises.org/14_2_3_0.pdf

In any case, if you are interested in fancy toasters, you might like to have a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfxlSG6q5Y


It almost seems like you're asking for permission. Instead, start this project if you're passionate about it and post your progress here on HN. I'm sure you can get lots of presales that way.


I think it might be worth starting with pure mechanical simple goods, and working from there?

E.g. Specialised bbq tongs might be an easier entry point, allow you to build up the machinery, drills, laser cutters, mould injection equipment, etc. Putting the electronics aspect aside for now will mean you can get things to market now, rather than that extra level of design, QC, legislation etc.

0-to-toaster is a big jump, and we wouldn't attempt a monolithic deliverable like that in software-dev...


Regardless of how good the product is it will be remade 10x cheaper and sold on Amazon and Alibaba by manufacturing in China. They don't play fair, they don't need the certs or product requirements you do. They are allowed to sell defective by design products and there are no consequences. Domestic producers are liable for everything. There is a reason domestic products failed. Any kind of rekindling is soon extinguished when you saturate customers willing to pay top dollar.


I personally lament the total lack of quality kitchen appliances and would gladly pay a premium for quality long lasting appliances.

I think that a toaster is a good place to start!


What's funny about this is that, while very far from perfect, kitchen appliances is one of the realms where it's easier than just about any other market segment to find high quality, well designed, long lasting devices. Yes, there is whole oceans of cheap disposable garbage, but for people who care, you can get a high quality version of just about every single kitchen thing you might want.


In Australia toasters are a weird product category. I cannot see any correlation to price and features/quality. The colour and style seems to be the only thing that separately them. I think a toaster that is objectively better than other toasters would be cool, but I've but it would be hard to beat my 10 year old A$20 Kmart toaster. But I suspect it would be a very difficult market to break into.


Also in Australia and in my experience everything here lacks aesthetics, quality and technological innovation, and is still a ripoff.

The Kmart stuff is at least value for money and sometimes is quality too and owning it makes the most sense.


Also Australian - agreed.

I got a toaster and kettle combo from a premium appliance manufacturer for Christmas. I've since seen the exact same kit in Aldi under their own brand. It's not just similar, it's the exact same product.


my toaster is pretty crappy - i'd buy your toaster!

my list of complaints

- strong smell of chemicals when i first started using it - can be hard to remove things without burning myself e.g. english muffins - sometimes it burns things/sometimes it doesn't toast them enough. i have figured out which settings work for some common use cases, but it feels like a toaster should be able to figure it out w/out crazy complexity.


I assume the safety protocols required are an immense challenge. My recent toaster, for example, didn’t stop cooking and caught my cabinets on fire.


I would like to buy a good toaster. I’d easily pay $100, maybe more.

It seems all the toaster models are pretty crappy. They’re hard to clean. It’s hard to guess how to set things to toast properly.

But it’s acceptable. I don’t like using my toaster, but I do.

I think there’s some small market in improving things that everyone uses because they must, but makes people angry to use (cable, phone service, air travel, toasters, etc).


Get an electric grill, or a panini press. They cost about 100 bucks, if they have removable plates they are easy to clean, it takes like a minute to make toast, and you can make more things than just toast.


Absolutely do not use your own capital for this. Make a compelling presentation and shop it out to investors. Use a mixture of logic, financial figures, and storytelling. Do not start from scratch, but get the most experienced people for your team. Remember: manufacturing is the lowest part of the SMILE curve. That's why things are not made in the USA.


Although I feel sad for saying this, what I think is sane is: don't compete with the Chinese.

Unless you can build an audience of extremely loyal fans. In that case, I'd suggest to start pitching your vision for a US-made toaster and sell a refundable pre-purchase (like 10% of the toaster).

If you can't attract a large enough fan base, you won't be successful, I'm afraid.


Hi. I'm a software engineer, and I'm here to burn your house down. ;-)

You'll need traditional engineers (mechanical design and electrical), and people who actually know manufacturing operations from sourcing to shipping.

Perhaps a way into this kind of business is to do it in reverse: Lend your software skills to a manufacturing business and soak up as much as you can about how it works.


A lot of great comments already but I'll add my opinion on search volume for 'toasters made in usa'. My feel is that a bulk of it is people looking for old fashioned toasters like showcased in this link; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfxlSG6q5Y


I love this channel! Yeah, I wish I could just buy a new one of these toasters. That’s basically exactly what I’d like to build. I would personally pay a good premium for one, and I think there is probably a decent number of people who would as well. It would be a niche product, but still maybe worth pursuing?


Yes, you should do this. Will you add your contact info to your profile, or contact me from mine?

I've been thinking the exact same thing about toasters. Here was my recent comment in the "Generation Junk" thread a few weeks ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38796570


I should have put my email in my profile before posting, I just sent you an email :)


^F Solar

No matches (yet) ??!!

This is your niche, a bespoke toasting fork and a foldaway reflective parabolic trench, all stamped with a discreet Americab flag.

* nuclear will take too long.

* HVDS (High Vis Direct Sunlight) reflective tubes can pipe in sunlight from Australia during winter.

* Rapid Early Scale Up Marketing - essential to get the volume before the bubble bursts.

( DM me for VC terms and assorted quotes from The Tibetian Book of the Dead )


https://a.co/d/2g7cOrc folding Camp stove toaster

Improve these so they will work on kitchen stoves and toast a custom logo or message on the bread.

With a decent marketing campaign you could probably buy these Wholesale, modify them slightly and resell for 2 to 3 times the price.


https://youtu.be/HPQbKTJPsU4?si=Z9SOFUaxupkr6LFA

This wire bender looks fairly easy to make would work well to make custom logos or messages.


I know very little about toasters but I am rooting for you. Don't see much of these types of businesses on hackernews


Sounds like the next Juicero potential. Maybe they can sell more if they make it "smart" so it can post a tweet about all of your toasting adventures. Then they'd be on HN. Oh, of course it'd have to be written in Rust


There's always a market for a toaster that looks like a printer with infrared laser head for toasting and costs 100 dollars.

Check out Rotimatic:https://rotimatic.com/

I don't own one but it seems to be on the wishlist of every Indian living abroad.


That sounds amazing too bad it works poorly


Why not try getting toasters from the reuse centres that divert such things from the landfill? Most times it's just a thermal fuse that pops due to a jammed piece of toast. That's a very cheap and easy repair and if you can't fix it, you can resell the heating elements for a good price.


A related old art project: Making a toaster from scratch by Thomas Thwaites

https://www.dezeen.com/2009/06/27/the-toaster-project-by-tho...


So...

It sounds that you're up for a meander. Do it. I suspect that both the public interest in domestically manufactured toasters and your interest are related.

There's something basic about a toaster. The basic consumer electronic appliances.

Also... just an idea... How about a Non-electric toaster? Lighter gas. Ethanol. Just an idea.


Add a voice assistant that only talks about toast. It can answer any question as long as it's about toast.


"You know the last time you had toast. 18 days ago, 11.36, Tuesday 3rd, two rounds. I mean, what's the point in buying a toaster with artificial intelligence if you don't like toast. I mean, this is my job. This is cruel, just cruel." (Call it Talkie)


I know you're kidding (are you?) but this can be easily accoplished by using the ChatGPT app with custom prompt and a bluetooth handsfree.

You can also use the same trick to create talking plush toys, just hide the HF inside. ;)


First thing that came to mind was an ImpulseLabs Toaster, powered by their high-output battery. Maybe you should reach out to the leadership and introduce yourself?

https://www.impulselabs.com/faqs


In my experience and not that I have tried every model but enough to say I am guessing they all suck as badly as the ones I have had.

Space to improve exist, heating elements need fresh designs and more consistant heat distribution, should also be simple, I dont want options I want toast quick and easy.


Tried this one from 1948? It’s only been downhill from there.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=1OfxlSG6q5Y


If you're going to go to the effort to build a luxury/fancy toaster, this is the mechanism to use. Since the antique Sunbeam is increasingly hard to find, might actually be a compelling product, too, on top of the "Made in the USA" label.


It really has, I love that thing!


I just know every kickstarter involving consumer electronics takes 3-5x more time and money than they had anticipated. Coffee makers come to mind. So be ready for tons of costly iteration and surprises. Maybe do it for a hobby and if you have zero interest in turning a profit.


How much do you think people would be willing to pay for this toaster? How many people like that are there?

What will it cost you to make?

For toasters or similar, what is the typical ratio of manufacturing cost to retail price? Is this enough to pay for distribution, marketing, logistics and returns?


You could move to Argentina. If Milei survives you might be able to start a business there.

edit: or approach this as DIY kit where you are not selling the toaster but the components as separate items and a set of instructions. less regulations and better repairability.


There is an ace ted talk about a guy making a toaster from scratch...

only ~11 mins.. recommended

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ODzO7Lz_pw


As long as you keep it simple.

Here’s an old joke on the topic: http://www.solipsys.co.uk/new/TheParableOfTheToaster.html


Just call your company something like "Teenage Engineering" and you can then charge an arm and a leg for basic product designs running bad software in a nice, clean, totally-not-ripped-off-from-Braun case.


I'd love to buy a hand mixer that doesn't have plastic gearing, which is approximately 100% of the market. Those just keep breaking.

I'd buy one with durable metal parts even if it costs 2-3x normal price level.


Love it, I've considered doing toasters. I run a space startup in Australia making hardware for satellites. Would love to chat. I've been a long time lurker but made an account for this ha ha.


I’d love to chat, I just sent you an email. :)


two pieces of advice:

First, you don’t need anyone’s permission here. If you want to build American made toasters, go do it!

Second, before you dive into this I’d recommend a little more due diligence. Around requirements sure (there was a good post in comments on different certs youd need). But more around validating demand: why doesn’t this exist already? As someone mentioned, are there enough consumers that would pay a premium for American made appliance? Or like the article you linked mentioned: no one is going to buy a $300 toaster. So how would you get the costs down?


> First, you don’t need anyone’s permission here. If you want to build American made toasters, go do it!

I similarly say: op, YOU are the expert.

Do not defer this decision to anyone else. Do not weigh the opinions of unknown commenters equally with your own.


The absolute best toasting toaster I've ever used is basically a couple of resistors in a sheet metal case with a spring timer: Dualit Classic.

It's comically overpriced but it does one thing and does it well.


It is also made in the UK, so it's essentially exactly what the poster wants.

Maybe an easier business would be marketing European-made devices to Americans. Is "Made in the UK/Germany/France/Italy/EU" etc valuable to Americans?


Related and relevant read https://www.thomasthwaites.com/the-toaster-project/.


Okay, I see a lot of people discouraging you, so I'll try to be positive. I say go for it!

However, your motivations don't seem very clear to me. What exactly are you trying to achieve with this venture?


Are the dynamics of the toaster market more like coffee machines (where a high-end play absolutely can work) or like microwaves (where there seems to be limited evidence that it would).


I'd hop on if it was kitchen storage. Kitchens are getting smaller, the appliance list is getting longer but the only storage you get is a few drawers and a stupid cabinet.


This is the kind of thing Kickstarter is for. It gives you a way to both raise funds and reliably establish that demand exists. And if the campaign fails then no harm no foul.


I think "Made in the USA" has tremendous cachet. However, I do not think people will pay up for it unless there is something unique being offered.


I see so much stuff like bespoke bicycles and clothes made by 'craftsmen' in the USA. Maybe something like that industry but for kitchen appliances would be cool.


Why not set your sights a bit higher? In Europe there's a few companies making locally sourced and more sustainable wind turbines the seem to be doing quite well.


Check out the Fastlane Forum to get info on the areas you are lacking. There are some people there can help you find info in the areas you lacking.


I think it’s a great idea. I would do the opposite of what most of the comments on here do and build the speed queen of toasters.


Historical background:

http://www.toastermuseum.com/


i'm sure this has been posted in thread before (if so i didn't see it) but here is a review of an insane toaster presented by the lovely sarah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ-KZzVUV7U


If you do, please film and document everything -- I would enjoy watching a Netflix documentary on your journey.


Aren't the best toasters in Japan ?


I haven't seen much in the way of pop-up toasters, but for toaster ovens, at least, they have really taken it above and beyond. Plenty of made-in-Japan models too. Unfortunately, toasters are one of those appliances that can be sensitive to grid voltage, so a toaster bought in Japan might not work as well in other countries.


How much soft is top priority for luxury toasters market, so pop-up is nonsense because steam go out from the top.


I also like buying things made locally, restricting the aperture of a product's origin to its absolute smallest possible in relation to my residence. I've even found tools made in my state!

Whether or not you should try is up to you.

But it is possible. Companies CAN compete with low-wage low-regulation areas but usually only on the high end.

You can buy toasters from Ritter that are made in Germany and they retail for around $200.

After a very cursory search I found a 1939 Sears catalog that listed an old-fashioned (a heating element surrounded by A-frame to hold the toast) toaster for $0.89 and a "Deluxe Automatic Toaster" for $8.95. A "Deluxe Automatic Toaster" is the kind that everyone buys today with adjustable toasting and automatic pop-up.

$8.95 in 1939 is... $200.

So you might want to start by doing some research into what people might want in a product once the price trends towards the high end of the market. My gut tells me, just based my desires and products that are still successfully being manufactured in the US that simplicity, robustness, and repairability are all extremely high, and wifi-enabled smartshit is very, VERY low on the "want" scale.

Products like Vornado air circulators (dumb), Bunn coffee makers (dumb), and Red Wing boots (dumb) are all made domestically and have all been on the market for decades and cheap imports haven't killed them off yet-- and they are all simple, robust, and repairable.

So DO NOT TRY TO MAKE THE JUICERO OF TOASTERS.

Make a residential version of the Waring commercial toasters, something with good industrial design, simplicity, and repairability, made domestically (Waring moved production of their 4-slice toasters overseas long ago).

Someone who spends $350 on Red Wing boots is willing to spend that much because they WILL get them resoled.

Someone willing to spend $200 on a toaster probably attempts to estimate how long it will last, and is smart enough to know that a wifi chip or microcontroller is an unnecessary complication.

I work in a field that makes physical things, but not mass-produced things. One pitfall I have observed with software folks moving in to manufacturing, such as programmers getting an MBA and PMP and moving into management is that the amount of time and money it takes to actually make a real physical object is almost incomprehensible to them.

Also incomprehensible are the very real and very important quality control and safety components to manufacturing.

Of course, if you worked on software in a safety-critical field this is old news.


Good idea here is a catchy brand name which you’ll need . . Call it ‘Your Toast!’


https://www.uspto.gov/ trademark search shows 'Your Toast' is not registered. 'Freedom Toast' was registered three times in the past but not currently.


It could be a whole line of products. Make Breakfast Great Again!?


making the toaster is the easy part; getting anyone to buy the toaster is the hard part. The demand is gatekept by companies like Google and Amazon and they will extract almost all of your profit


Toasters cook food so be aware of the many regulations in that area.


Would selling in kit form change liabilities significantly?


years ago I went to the local fete in a town of some 200 people about an hour from the main city in our state (Australia) and I bought what I think is the best toaster I have ever seen, no moving parts.

It was sort of like a little metal toast cave with a single rod like element running along the back. It used reflectance from that heating element to toast - you put the toast in horizontally and it was like a very small toaster oven with no door, but more stylish.

And I wish I could fully remember but there may have been some kind of auto off device and some nuances for toasting one side more than the other, but because it was like a frog mouth opening you could fit fat bread, buns, rolls, you could do toasted cheese and so on.

I could see why maybe some safety factors could be a problem in a modern world, but there were grills and guards to protect against accidental contact, it was double skinned to prevent external temps getting to hot to touch or ignite things, and it was about 50 years old when I got it and still working perfectly.

If I ever see another one I am buying it regardless of price.

I feel that success would only be likely if you presented a new (or old) paradigm on what a toaster is.

I mean, you can always just break out the heat gun, it's loud, inefficient, maybe a little dangerous, but you can get your toast exactly how you want it.

Second last toaster I bought I decided to lash out on a fancy $150 one - it lasted no longer than the $20 and toasted no better, so now I just go with low end ones.\


tbh I'd buy your toaster if you made it


How about air poppers for popcorn? I have cycled through literally a dozen and all modern incarnations are totally shit, with improper designs that lead to way too many unpopped kernels. This is a market that could use the Dyson touch…


If it makes you feel warm and crunchy...


obligatory: http://www.thetoasterproject.org


Great idea!




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