Palantir is a glorified IT consultant with some good political connections. What someone like Accenture or Infosys will do for your company, Palantir will do for a country's military, only their bill will have a few more zeroes at the end. They are still ultimately setting up databases for supply chain management and HR. The rest of what you see ("AI on the battlefield!") is all marketing.
Look - I worked for Lockheed... My brother was personal flight surgeon to the Joint Chiefs. Dad was also in air force. Grandfather was a nuclear engineer for GE... Pretty well know the military
But one does need to pay attention to how tech and defense work together - especially when the defense eng of the equation is an opaque foreign military.
(When lockheed bought savi (rfid tracking systems for supplies/equipment/weapons/chemicals) - we had a several great engineers, of muslim/middle eastern descent, who quit over protest)
Serious question - please don't politicize this question:
How will Palantir + Peter Thiel's other major investment, OPenAI's ChatGPT(whatever) be both used in war theaters? Not just Israel, but any place 5Eyes operate? (surely OpenAI works directly with others in Thiel's portfolio?)
Will/Are/Who is developing models specifically for 'war-related mission'?
Surely, plenty of defense upstarts are already all over this - but would like some deeper insight into the current / future state?
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Re: Starlink - we already saw commitments to Ukraine for access - then that kinda fell off the map - I wonder how its been used for the drones? or other ways it may have been leveraged.
However - when will we hear about another super-power, such as China, stealing whatever tech they havent already from SpaceX and deploy their own constellation of StarLink Satts?
Or, just as AWS is doing datacenters for IC/MIC - Surely SpaceX could operate a dedicated constellation for [insert paying military]?
The LLM related stuff is almost certainly not currently deployed. The US military has extensive sampling and testing periods before they distribute new kit to the infantry, and OpenAI simply hasn't had enough time to present a killer app (imo).
That's not to say AI isn't used in warfare; computer vision has been an enormous part of recon and targeting pipelines over the past decade. But LLMs themselves are going to take a looooooot of fanangling before it sees active duty. Think Hololens, not M4 carbine.
Honestly, after reading SkunkWorks and finding out that stealth bombers were kept secret from 1978 until they were used to essentially win the Gulf War in 1 night in 1992 I have to assume there's a ton of military tech that we know nothing about.
I feel like starlink is underappreciated here. It seems to be a game changer in terms of communication about live targets and intelligence in a way that traditional satellites just aren't. Due to that, it seems obvious that SpaceX would make the most money in military contracts related to it. I don't think the military is blind nor is SpaceX to the potential here - so why haven't we heard more about that kind of partnership?
China being a manufacturing superpower in the same way the US was during WWII makes me feel like they are underestimated essentially because industrial production is such a big deal for military capacity. I think other capacity of China is overappreciated. But industrial capacity for every part of the drone/shell production chain seems like how the most recent modern war has been fought.
The US seems to only have grown in the informational space - not production capacity. If those gains are not being realized in military, then the US's position would be slowly receding. It could be that the miliary has not been able to make use of the information space or not. We don't know.
Military position is about capabilities and (hopefully) not hot trial of those capabilities. Great powers each thinking they have vastly stronger capabilities than the other could make hot trial of the capacity more likely. That's not a good thing. Capabilities need to be more obvious to avoid war.
I guess what I am saying is - I'd like to know too. Mostly this topic is a lot of hot takes and chest beating so it's hard to get a more indifferent look.
I am unsure if Palantir has other clients who have cases in from of the International Court of Justice on accusations of genocide - it has a lot of coverage right now. Here is a summary article from CNN:
If Israel actually gets convicted of breaches under the convention, of which there is a chance, would you be comfortable selling technology that is aiding in their "war-related missions"?
I would not be shocked at all if Palantir sold to Myanmar.
Also there is 0 chance of conviction. Also I think you are unfamiliar of Peter Theil and his beliefs, I would recommend some research there (hint: he wouldn't care).
Israel lost the last case at the ICJ. Russia is looking like it will lose its case at the ICJ. At this point it looks like it isn't a sure thing that Israel will beat the charges.
Sorry, you are correct. What I thought in my head and somehow didn't get out onto the keyboard was 'there is 0 chance a conviction will have any real world impact', because the ICJ has no teeth and people who oppose/support the court tend to have a corresponding believe of supporting/opposing Israel. So bottom line it doesn't really matter happens at the ICJ.
I was about to say, I don’t see why one would feel more uncomfortable about selling them a glorified data analytics platform, as opposed to selling them cloud compute resources or Office365 subscription (while keeping in mind that all of those would be used for “war-related missions”).
EDIT: The parent comment has been substantially changed since I posted this reply. Originally, it just said “yes.” Considering what it currently states after the edit (going into a side-tangent about UN’s inaction against Saudi Arabia’s activities in Yemen, as well as their anti-Israel bias), it changes the context of my reply fairly significantly.
These are the bombings that Biden has referred to as indiscriminate, which is technically a war crime. Does that mean that the market of the AI software is partially responsible for war crime enabled by its software?
> Israel is using AI apparently to target their bombings
How does that have anything to do with Palantir or even foreign countries providing military support to Israel? The AI system in the article you linked was developed in-house by Israeli military.
> These are the bombings that Biden has referred to as indiscriminate
I don’t want get into an argument on an unrelated topic or defend Israel whatsoever, but indiscriminate? You realize that the AI system described is only used for generating the initial list of potential target locations, right? The human analysts are the ones reviewing the targets and all relevant intel manually, and and then deciding which ones to act on. Their AI doesn’t make decisions or “pull the trigger” or aim or anything like that.
The AI is only in the loop for the very first step of the process (which is just generating a rough initial draft of potential target locations), every step after that is all good old manual work that would happen the exact same way as if AI didn’t exist at all.
None of this is a guess or a conjecture on my part, it was explicitly stated in the NPR article you linked.
> The AI system in the article you linked was developed in-house by Israeli military.
Given that Palantir is just starting this partnership, they could be the ones providing the next version of AI targeting technology. This isn't theoretical, this is the type of stuff Palantir is involved in.
> The AI is only in the loop for the very first step of the process (which is just generating a rough initial draft of potential target locations), every step after that is all good old manual work that would happen the exact same way as if AI didn’t exist at all.
We probably agree here to some degree. But I still wouldn't want to be personally creating technology that is being used for indiscriminate bombings, even if it is only partially responsible.
Just because other people commit genocide doesn't give Israel a free pass to commit genocide while accusing anyone who objects of antisemitism. Also, in the past Israel deliberately strengthened Hamas in order to deny Palestinians a functioning government, so not sure what your point is about South Africa.
My point is that the only reason this is being brought to the UN court is that its because a bunch of jews are doing it.
Its clearly not genocide, genocide has a very clear definition.
If Israel wanted all the Palestinians dead they could do it in a few weeks.
America laid waste to Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11, killing at least 250k people. That was not genocide and neither is what Israel is doing.
Saudi's killed 500k, using starvation as a weapon, that was likely genocide.
If you sneak across the border and murder, torture and rape 1000+ people there are going to be very bad consequences.
Note: I am in no way downplaying how much suffering the Palestinian civilians are experiencing. Its terrible. What I am saying is Hamas committed an atrocity and left Israel with no choice but to anhiliate them.
> My point is that the only reason this is being brought to the UN court is that its because a bunch of jews are doing it.
I think it is great to move these types of disputes into law rather than war. Israel should further embrace the ICC jurisdiction fully and bring Hamas to account there.
> Its clearly not genocide, genocide has a very clear definition. If Israel wanted all the Palestinians dead they could do it in a few weeks.
I am not sure you know what you are talking about. The formal definition of genocide is here:
Just so we are clear, lets say israel filed a case against Hamas and won. Then what? The UN going to invade Gaza and destroy them? Or nothing changes and Hamas continues raping and killing? Everyone always says there is another way but not a single person has actually presented one that stops Hamas.
Lets say you have a wife, and 5 kids. Terrorists break into your house and rape your wife and murder 2 of your kids.
There are 2 options presented to you.
1. you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die.
2. a special team of negotiators and police spend 3 months slowly working with the community to try and get them to give up the terrorists. 80% of the terrorists are caught. 5 police officers die. The rest are free. In the mean time they kill your wife and cripple one of your remaining kids.
Which one do you choose?
All the anti Israel people want Israel to pick option 2, when Israel's responsibility has to be to protect its own.
Also there really is no such thing as international law.
There is only what America allows and does not allow. It may not be fair but thats reality. Those really are the facts on the ground.
Making extremely cruel and deranged TikToks in destroyed homes. Politicians are talking about how there are no innocent civilians in Gaza. 80% of the people suffering catastrophic hunger in the world right now are in Gaza.
I'd rather say you and anyone has two options here: a.) denounce the genocide and call for it to end and the people responsible to be prosecuted b.) support genocide in some form or other, beating around the bush in so many words, with all sorts of neat hypothetical faces to put on the despicable genocidal underbelly that is being rubbed in our faces.
> All the anti Israel
To criticize that is as much "Anti-Israel" as the White Rose was "Anti-German". Yeshayahu Leibowitz didn't love Israel less than the people who saw no problem.
As Gideon Levy said, the friend of an alcoholic is not he who goes to the corner store to buy them alcohol, it's the one who tells them they have to stop.
"They are bombing refugee camps"
Are there terrorists in these camps?
Are there tunnels under these camps?
"Making extremely cruel and deranged TikToks in destroyed homes"
This is war... Soldiers have dehumanized their enemies since the beginning of time. Hamas actually has women and children they are holding hostage.
What is Israel's other option?
Let Hamas go to do it again? Hamas is very open even during this war in stating their goal is to destroy Israel and the US and wanting to repeat their killing of civilians.
So again, serious question.
What is Israel's alternative to the invasion?
How do they immediately stop Hamas and prevent them from attacking Israel again with out doing what they are doing now?
I think you will find, if you are serious that your response is "I don't know"
Both of your options are invalid as choosing either does not resolve Israel's current situation which is that they have an openly genocidal terrorist army on their border and they can either eradicate it or allow it to continue to rape, murder and torture. Lets not forget that hamas still has a hundred civilians they have kidnapped, many of them women that they are refusing to return even though they had agreed to; likely because of what has been done to them in captivity.
This is a fight for survival for both sides, its ugly but it has happened over and over through history. It will happen many more times. Its just humanity.
> "They are bombing refugee camps" Are there terrorists in these camps? Are there tunnels under these camps?
Nope and nope.
> "Making extremely cruel and deranged TikToks in destroyed homes" This is war... Soldiers have dehumanized their enemies since the beginning of time.
They're dehumanizing civilians, including children. The last time we saw something like this was Abu Ghraib, and they didn't post that proudly on social media.
> What is Israel's other option?
Than to target civilians to take over the land, and hiding that behind the fig leaf of Hamas which was always preferred over moderates? As Smotrich said recently: "In the context of de-legitimization - Hamas is an asset (for Israel) and the Palestinian Authority is a liability."
I don't have to provide an alternative to genocide, ffs. It is not a permitted response to anything.
> this is a fight for survival for both sides
Nope, it's a fight for expansion for religious zealots, and a fight to stay in office and not be on trial for corruption for Netanyahu. Israeli society doesn't gain anything from this. Once this fully trickles down and the fallout is over, it will take decades for Israel to recover from this, if ever.
"So again, serious question. What is Israel's alternative to the invasion? How do they immediately stop Hamas and prevent them from attacking Israel again with out doing what they are doing now?
I think you will find, if you are serious that your response is "I don't know"
"I don't have to provide an alternative to genocide, ffs. It is not a permitted response to anything."
That isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals.
> Or nothing changes and Hamas continues raping and killing?
With regards to the ICC, there would be international arrest warrants for Hamas leaders and there would be incredibly pressure on a lot of countries to arrest them if they were present in their countries or transiting through them.
> Everyone always says there is another way but not a single person has actually presented one that stops Hamas.
You do realize that Netanyahu, and other radicals in the Israeli government, has actually long purposely boosted Hamas by allowing financial transfers and has purposely hurt the Palestinian moderates? Netanyahu viewed supporting Hamas as a way to prevent a 2 state solution:
“The Palestinian Authority is a burden, and Hamas is an asset.”
So yeah, there is a clear solution here towards a 2-state solution where both Israeli and Palestinians have freedom and safety and self-determination. Providing hope is the best way to stop the growth of radical organizations.
> you can call the military and they will bomb and kill the terrorists but 20 civilians will die.
"that isn't how the UN works anyway, especially the ICC which charges individuals"
Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options. Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews.
They can press charges while Hamas continues to rape and murder and wait and then even with a conviction, the rape and murder continues or they can do what they are doing now and resolve the situation. Any long term solutions can come later.
Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships?
> Exactly so to resolve the current situation, Israel has no options.
I support removing Hamas but not cutting off aid, electricity, fuel, food and not indiscriminate bombing. And I think pairing that with a robust drive to a 2-state solution is also key. You have to provide hope and show you are not just trying to take land or engage in ethnic cleansing, e.g: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-gaza-palestinians-conce...
> Doubtful that the court would convict Hamas anyway for just killing a few jews.
I would expect that some of both Hamas and Israeli leadership will be charged and also some will be found guilty of war crimes if ICC filed charges. ICC has been gun shy to get involved though, so it isn't clear if it will happen.
> Any long term solutions can come later.
Always! This is why the occupation has lasted so long.
> Also assume the US should just bring a UN court case against the Houthis in Yemen as well instead of using force to defend ships?
Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defence. It is charged with genocide with is different and not what the US is doing in Yemen. Many leaders said things that sound like genocidal statements and it has cut off food, water, electricity and fuel. 80% of starving people in the world are in Gaza. Here is the UK pleading with Israel to turn the water back on and let in food: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/israel-must-act-now-t...
For you personally it is a false dichotomy, for Israel its a real choice they had to make.
Hamas has proven that they seize the vast majority of aid sent to Gaza both during the current war and historically. That is why its leaders are billionaires.
"Israel isn't charged at the ICJ for self-defense" of course not, but that is what this war is, a war of self defense to ensure that what happened does not happen again. America is not striking the Houthis in self defense, Yemen is on the other side of the world from the US they are not a risk to America the nation at all.
Hamas is a clear threat to Israeli citizens.
Leaders can say whatever they want, they can only charge on actions. Indeed Hamas openly calls for the destruction of Israel and America. Israel has gone out of its way to avoid civilians, indeed far more than the US did in Iraq.
I hear what you are saying and I think your heart is in the right place but from my perspective if someone kills your citizens / family and remains an active threat, it is the governments responsibility to hunt them to the end of the earth and neutralize that threat in the most expedient manner possible.
> Israel has gone out of its way to avoid civilians
What civilians? President Herzog said there are no innocent civilians in Gaza, as did many other politicians. IDF soldiers are singing about how there are "no uninvolved civilians".
Just turning off water TO PUNISH CIVILIANS isn't going out of one's way to not harm them. Or just sniping people out of nowhere, including a 70 year old woman with a white flag fleeing with a child. Or just shooting youth in the West Bank, then running over the body with an army truck.
You are telling us we didn't see what we saw because you don't face it. That's a fool's errand.
> "Those are animals, they have no right to exist. I am not debating they way it will happen, but they need to be exterminated"-- Yoav Kisch, Minister of Education, 09/10/2023
> "There are no innocent civilians in Gaza" -- Isaac Herzog, President, 13/10/2023
> “There is no humanitarian crisis.” [..] “the humanitarian crisis at the moment is in Israel.” -- Tzipi Hotovely, Israeli Ambassador to the UK, 16/10/2023
This is why it is great to bring a case to the ICJ. It means we are not just sorting out whether it is genocide or not based on social media upvotes/likes.
Hey you didn't murder anyone but you shouldn't mind going before a joke trial and proving you didn't in front of a bunch of racist antisemites who want you convicted no matter what.
Buddy, there's just no other way to explain it. There's just no other way other than antisemitism to explain the vitriol Israel gets compared to worse actions of others. If you were on the receiving end of this new wave of masks-off antisemitism you would understand, but you're not. Your on the giving end.
The number of US municipalities (cities/counties) using Palantir is very high. Be aware, this company and this individual enjoys success in part through your local taxes.
