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[flagged]
mddanishyusuf on Jan 7, 2024 | hide | past | favorite


This gotta be against AWS's term... When you sign up for AWS SES, they ask you very detailed questions about how you'll monitor bounces, deal with spam reports, etc. I don't see how you can do that and then hand your keys to another service to do things in there own way.

Also, what is the point of giving this service your AWS creds rather than them using AWS directly? Since they charge you anyway?


> Also, what is the point of giving this service your AWS creds rather than them using AWS directly? Since they charge you anyway?

Presumably so that if/when the service gets abused and Amazon decides to ban the offending account, it doesn't take down absolutely everyone on their service.


Seems like the in between of a managed service and raw AWS trying to take advantage of individual AWS accounts having a free tier.

So have the customer make the account, take advantage of the free 10k emails a month to claim a lower price.

I don’t see the point in it. I doubt there will be much customer service if problems happen. Maybe if you’re trying to launch a free newsletter or something but otherwise it’s worth paying for peace of mind and potential lost time. You don’t want to deal with emails not getting sent or issues with the service when you’re focused on growing your company.


For most email senders, it is not the cost that is most important but deliverability. Ensuring your emails do not land up in SPAM is way more important than saving money, especially when you are still small or early in the business.

For bigger businesses, the cost is solved - either by using their system, processes, and people, or the ROI is good enough to pay someone to do it for them.


So true. The value of the email to a business is $x if delivered and $0 if it isn't.

You can make money if you can reliably deliver an email for < $x, which is not a trivial problem.


“Guaranteeing Inbox Delivery and Spam Avoidance.”

No details as to how. Am not sure this can be guaranteed.


My bank and insurance companies can't regularly and reliably deliver their "paperless" email. Not sure anyone can unless they own the infrastructure. Just getting 50% of your sent mail to their readable inbox is difficult enough. Google groups can't even deliver mail to Yahoo (blacklisted).


I take advantage of paperless options everywhere and got burned by the "Paperless DMV Vehicle Renewal Notice" going to SPAM. I had to pay pretty hefty late fee (a few hundred dollars).

Since that event, I've flipped the switch back to "snail mail" and will resist the constant nagging until they implement a paper fallback (i.e. notify by email first and if it's not paid within X weeks of deadline, fire off a paper notification).


Tell your government to create an electronic mail service that you log into using your ID for all your government communication. Spam doesn't exist there.


They have this in Netherlands: https://mijn.overheid.nl/about-mijnoverheid/


The federal government doesn’t administer state and local taxes and doesn’t care.


I had a similar situation with property taxes. But somehow that “paperless” box keeps getting checked despite me being very careful not to use it.


Why would you filter any sender with a ".gov" domain (in the US, at least) to spam.

Also, don't you check your spam folder? Or, do you just straight up delete everything once the "pile" gets too big?

Sounds like a "you" problem, not a delivery problem.


Presumably you get your monthly fee back if not.


[flagged]


Except that inbox deliverability is not "oh your domain is verified? free pass". So many things nowadays play a part into whether you hit spam filters - the content of your post and how 'spammy' it looks, whether or not you have an unsubscribe button (if not, your message better look extremely transactional), the history of click-through rates on your domain (if you send stuff for a week straight and nobody ever clicks on it, chances are you're sending unsolicited emails).

DKIM/SPF is only to validate that the sender isn't masquerading as your domain, and is what enables your emails to have a fighting chance of creating and maintaining good reputation status with the spam filter algorithms/ML models. Past that, your emails need to be useful and solicited or you're just sending spam from a verified domain.


For those looking for a self-hosted solution which doesn’t require a monthly payment, there’s https://sendy.co/. I never tried it, just remembered it exists.

Mail Layer does seems to have a bit more features, so pick your tradeoff.

As for feedback on the page, the mobile design isn’t exactly broken but it does have a number of problems. It’s so squished at the top it reads:

  Mail
    Documentation
  Layer
Playing the video, its right side is entirely cut off. The “Frequently Asked Questions” title overlaps the questions themselves.


Here is another great self hosted solution that I came across. Really high performance (written in Go). No affiliation but well done open source product.

https://listmonk.app


I have been using sendy for an year now. While it does have most of the features one would need, it starts to choke. I have a mailing list with 700k subscribers and it's been a pain to use sendy.


Same here. Can't manage to increase send speed in a significant way. Do you mind sharing what you optimized on your server to be able to send a mailing list to such a big number of subscribers?


I am thinking of using sendy, why is speed an issue? Aren't the emails delivered by SES? Can't you just send to SES a template and a list of emails and let them handle it?


Sendy is fantastic. The one-off price is very much worth it and a refreshing price for software when everything is MRR these days.


This. We are using it for 8 years without any problems.


It does require a one-off payment of $69 and isn't Free Software (although you can modify the sources after installation on your server).


Seems like most are bringing up the issue of spam filter bypassing as the real business value, I'm very curious if any "email 2.0" systems have been devised to combat the spam issues of SMTP?


interesting upsides to a 'pay to send' system that legally counts as delivery

the legal system uses certified mail as a proxy for this and digitally there is nothing better


Other than DMARC, SPF and DKIM?


Yeah, it’s called Slack


Tell me more about this inbox deliverability guarantee.


I don't really get what's exceptional here? $0.10 for 1000 emails is the normal AWS SES price...

This is just a high markup for something you have open source equivalents of.


If the normal price is $0.10 for 1k emails, then the normal price for 10k emails is $1.

Where’s the high markup?


Because as soon as you want to send more than 10K emails in a month, this tool charges a minimum of $12 a month (+ the SES cost).


> if you send 50,000 emails per month, you would pay $5 to AWS (as AWS charges $1 for every 10,000 emails) and $12 to Mail Layer. Therefore, to send 50,000 emails, your total cost would be $17.

the web site makes you get down the page, then open up FAQs to really understand how the pricing works.


It’s actually worse. Their page is a lie.

It tells you what you’ll pay to them, but you’ll also be charged by AWS at the AWS rate (this is stated later in the FAQ, but the blatant marketing lie really grinds my gears)


Their free tier is 10k, you just pay the AWS cost. So 10k for $1.


All of the tiers lie.

The solo tier lists $12, but would actually be $17.


Can you share some of the oss equivalents that you’ve used and liked?


This looks pretty neat. When I used SES at a previous company we had to do a lot of stuff like bounce tracking and monitoring ourselves so I definitely see the value.

One recommendation would be to use have customers create an IAM role and use cross-account role assumption to access SES on their behalf. That way you don’t have to deal with handling long-lived credentials


https://github.com/knadh/listmonk

We use listmonk, extremely flexible and lightweight as well! I want to try to build a Hubspot integration to fetch contacts directly from Hubspot.


Nice. ListMonk is by the CTO of a very popular company in India, Zerodha. Another of his tool is right now on the top of HackerNews - DNS.Toys - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38899290


Keila is another one with similar features plus a visual (block) editor for designing the email template/content: https://github.com/pentacent/keila


There was another service that did this pretty well and much simpler. Unfortunately, suffers from the same “deliverability is now your own problem“ problem.

https://sendwithses.com


Can someone make an open source version of this so developers can directly integrate themselves on AWS?


Please, don't do that!


Because…?


Leave people’s inbox alone


AWS is pretty aggressive about banning senders with high bounce/report rates. I know from working in an industry where customers had terrible email systems


This is fine if we’re talking about spam, but lots of people are trying to find good solutions to send newsletters that people actually ask to have delivered via email.


Ah yes, don't send emails to people who signed up to checks notes receive emails from you.


Can't get past the "+ Create Brand" button, even though every field is filled in and the email is verified by Amazon...


Nice. Have you built the landing page from scratch? Or is it a pre-made template?


[flagged]


I mean, the guy built a DIY mailchimp. That seems hackernews relevant. There's tons of services like mailchimp that are all varying costs. A low cost DIY solution may be interesting to some people.




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