I don’t know about any actual data, but out on the road, in the wild, my wife and I comment on “BMW” drivers for their driving styles.
We comment on the pony cars for their loud exhausts, but for lane changes, darting through traffic, blowing stop signs, “Yup, it’s a BMW”.
And it’s funny because we have a cat (a couple actually), and cats are notorious for getting under feet.
We were walking to the bedroom, with one of our cats, and things were getting crowded in the corner when our orange cat raced up. You could see him stop, paw at the other cat to move aside, dove into the gap to rush in front of us at which point he came to a dead stop.
Both my wife and I watched the whole thing. I turned to her, pointed at the cat, and said “look, a BMW driver”.
Even when I was too young to drive I’d encounter this sentiment, specifically about BMW drivers. Can’t tell if it’s confirmation bias or a simple heightened sense of awareness but I can definitely make these observations as a driver today.
But I’m in Salt Lake City where good driving is notable as the exception. A co-worker used to work sales in a context that had him chauffeuring clients who flew in. One particular client didn’t like being chauffeured because he enjoyed driving “the Mormon 500”.
After years of driving largely nondescript cars, I bought a bright red BMW in 2016. What was remarkable was how noticeably different other drivers’ attitudes were towards me on the road, like they’re so conditioned by the typical drivers of similar cars that they assume I’ll be driving like an asshole and react preemptively. I try to be a considerate and safe driver–I’m not sure I’d ever even been flipped off while driving other cars, so the difference was really tangible when suddenly there were middle fingers and horns happening regularly.
Opposite experience here. Had a bright BMW sports model, and then when moving to a dark family vehicle from a manufacturer without this reputation people treat me totally different. Anecdotally I don’t drive any different, still speed as fast as the conditions allow on clear highways or go with the flow of traffic, even if that flow is +15mph over. However I got pulled over by the police for speeding about quarterly in the BMW, and have not been pulled over a single time in more than five years in my new car. Wild.
> However I got pulled over by the police for speeding about quarterly in the BMW, and have not been pulled over a single time in more than five years in my new car.
In car fan circles, this is called a “sleeper” - a car whose boring design and boring color doesn’t draw attention from police. That’s not a negative at all - it’s great! Car fans often buy sleepers on purpose.
Historical sleeper examples include the Ford Taurus SHO, Chevy SS sedan, and Audi S6. I had a 2003 Audi RS6, a notorious sleeper. Looked totally plain, but could absolutely fly, and I never got a ticket in it despite some truly hair raising speeds.
Hmm, must be demographic in specific countries, here in Switzerland the biggest a-holes IMHO are Tesla drivers, not all of them obviously (some of them drive ridiculously slow which is another danger), but it seems that tailgating is shared among many of those. Full gas & brake style of driving. Second biggest in my experience are... spread quite evenly across the brands, crappiest old french or italian ones are often a bit worse for some reason.
When frequently driving through France, on my previous BMW 3 series sedan I was facing tight swirls and 1m tailgating on otherwise empty highways. They eventually lose interest when they see no reaction and see me driving according to rules, but its stupid and needlessly dangerous for everybody. So what is common trope of arrogant BMW drivers was actually, every fucking weekend over a decade, experienced by plethora of brands driven by french drivers, on BMW which was driving way more civilized than they were. Not even anyhow fancy one, no striking colors or designs on a freakin' V6 diesel.
Switched to another BMW, 5 series wagon, and absolutely 0 of this, ever, in 4 years.
But then again, in Switzerland there are tons of BMW, Mercedes, Audis etc., often compromise >50% of the traffic around me, and the idea that all BMW drivers behave like that is stupid. In fact traffic normally goes OK, in the morning rush hours I don't see any brand being particularly worse (apart from that Tesla, but maybe I had back luck on new drivers enjoying all that power).
I guess different people tend to go for different cars. Also, say grey BMW 2 series is as uninspiring, boring and slow car as it can be, thats more a granny car than anybody else.
This might be due to the fact that these cars are so expensive that buyers who stretch themselves to afford them typically don't buy the optional features like side mirrors and turning signal lights.
I think it’s more that people with poor judgment both (1) buy cars that are more expensive than they can afford and (2) make bad decisions while driving.
Like when you see a middle-aged smoker clutch-dragging a coffin nail and scarfing a McDonald's burger before his next presentation selling life insurance to government employees - sometimes you know a life time of bad decisions when you see it.
At this point BMW should offer some classes after buying that explains what the levers hanging off the side of the steering column do. I've owned and modified numerous BMWs but there is a stereotype that the drivers don't signal, for a good reason, most of them just don't.
I expected better from HN commenters than these tired old tropes; this isn't Reddit. I've owned 3 BMWs now (current one is an M3 and therefore stupidly powerful and fast) and I do not speed, I yield to others and I use my turn signals; I obey the rules of the road (the highway code here in the UK). It's so tiresome to see these tedious memes being wheeled out every time.
Wouldn’t insurers already have the most accurate data regarding this? What would “academics” be able to provide? At best, I would expect them to come up with the same answer that multiple insurers already have.
It would be interesting to see how this holds up in the US market. I've always held an assumption that the more driver assist doohickeys on a car makes the drivers worse. More expensive cars usually have more doohickeys than less expensive ones.
Ok. My perspective. I have owned 6 Toyotas, 1 Mazda and 1 Plymouth over the past 3 decades. Some of them were used but 5 of the Toyotas were brand new. For the first time splurged on a BMW earlier this year. I don't think I am a bad driver but ...
The machine is a beast. I joke that now if I see an opening, I can push the accelerator, close my eyes and still be guaranteed that the car will make it where I want it to go. I would not have dreamt of doing that on any of my other cars. It just was not possible. The Toyotas would be rattling and the BMW is not only fast but quite heavy so it either does not vibrate and even if it does not that bad.
Does it make me take undue risk. I don't think so. However I would not be surprised if someone else did. But from their perspective, they will be driving the car to the potential.
But I also wonder if the other electric cars are not this way? Zero to 60 in 4 seconds or whatever. I think they are and they will exhibit the same behavior patterns once the drivers try out their speed and acceleration features.
I also got a BMW (but only a 2er) recently, and I think it makes me more confident at maneuvers I would have dreaded before. Top speed on a high way is now very comfortable, and taking over feels safe. That hasn’t been the case with my Kia, Hyundai, or Mazda. I can definitely see people becoming a bit more reckless with this general feeling of safety.
Generally agreed, but there does seem to be a small population of drivers behind the wheel of 1980s-ish-era Japanese cars that drive very aggressively. I suspect they watched too much Initial D.
That's only half of Subaru's marketing in the US. The other half is the WRX / STI lineage. You'll have clapped out 15-20 year old WRX going for $20k because the Need for Speed crowd wants them.
You probably want a Civic hatchkback then. And you probably want the 2L i-vtec turbo engine, with manual transmission. The CVT is boring, but if you don't like driving stick, get one by all means.
It’s a bit of an odd mixture. Subaru as a whole brand is fairly sedate and middle-of-the-road, but basically anyone who’s ever bought an Impreza only got it to hoon around in.
They cite that the data in the study was from 2011-2015. Cars have changed significantly in that time so it is worth remembering that the common stability and traction control, and safety systems on cars sold today are significantly improved from those when this study was performed.
A performance automobile or sports car can certainly perform at levels that raise risks. That said I would rather be in an automobile that spends most of its time operating far below its capacity with sufficient performance reserve to handle emergency situations despite being significantly handicapped by a less than perfect human driver.
- Performance cars tend to be bought by people with risky traffic habits. And no, just because somebody thinks of themselves as having the driving skills of a professional racing driver, and have the fanciest wheels they can afford, doesn't mean their driving skills, or more importantly, their appreciation of risk in different traffic situations, match reality.
- Few accidents are caused by lack of performance.
From the article: “ Research found speeding or jumping a red light less likely in a Skoda or Hyundai than in brands sold as ‘performance driving’”
Those safety systems are nearly irrelevant in the face of reckless driving. Most people, including those buying performance cars, are not spectacular drivers.
> That said I would rather be in an automobile that spends most of its time operating far below its capacity with sufficient performance reserve to handle emergency situations despite being significantly handicapped by a less than perfect human driver.
What's an example of a modern passenger automobile that DOESN'T spend most of its time operating far below its capacity and/or WITHOUT sufficient performance reserve to handle emergency situations despite being significantly handicapped by a less than perfect human driver?
A panic stop is mostly a question of speed not the cars performance.
This means a speeding Porsche has worse handling than a Tahoe driven reasonably. Which is what this study uncovers, performance cars don’t offset reckless behavior.
For most typical SUVs, that value is 160-well over 200ft. That's multiple car lengths of distance. Easily the difference between rear-ending someone and not.
You obviously didn’t read what I said. “a speeding Porsche has worse handling than a Tahoe driven reasonably“
On average the SUV and Porsche will not be driven at the same speeds therefore the actual stopping distances should not be calculated using that assumption.
It’s directly related to the actual research and counters your original statement. Aka when reality disagrees with your intuition, reality wins.
Plenty of BMW etc drivers made panicked stops before dying because they had gotten into a situation where their car and reflexes couldn’t save them from physics. No car can save people from stupid.
This study is really examining the driver’s behavior not the inherent safety of the cars.
The fact such improvements are available on other cars not driven as recklessly means 2023 and 2030 Porsche etc drivers will also be more likely to be involved in an accident. The only only way this changes is if the culture around these brands change or if cars stop allowing people to be in control because as long as someone can decide to drive at 120+ MPH physics dictates inherent risks.
The point isn't that these cars can perform at high levels, it's that the branding encourages people to.
My 2009 Toyota Sienna minivan has more guts to it than I'll ever use (and so it spends most of its time operating far below capacity), but minivan drivers aren't generally known for risky maneuvers and excessive speeds.
That's in the UK and it's a very poor (and 10+ years old) article.
The only metrics that do work are the ones insurance companies are using and that'd be stuff like "at fault accidents by that brand/model" adapted to age and mileage.
Which, shocker, is exactly what my insurer is using to insure my vehicle. And everybody else's vehicles too btw.
Cars/drivers in the US with the most accidents according to those who actually know:
IIRC Porsche owners on average have less accidents at fault than the national US average.
FWIW I daily drive a Porsche and I pay... 315 EUR (aka 337 USD) per year for my insurance (it doesn't cover damages I'd make to my own car if I were at-fault in a crash though). 315 EUR per year is nothing and the reason it's so cheap is because people with the same car as mine simply hardly make any accident.
I've lived in and driven in several different cities in the US, and driven around the world. What I've observed is that broadly speaking, brand doesn't matter, but affordable sporty cars tend to be driven by younger people who are likely to drive more aggressively and riskier (see Subaru WRX vs Subaru Outback). Also, broadly speaking cars that are older and in worse condition tend to be driven more aggressively, there seems to be some latent rage and general uncaring about yourself/your vehicle that happens when poorer people drive poorer cars (see nearly every Nissan Altima in the US).
All that said, I've also observed that BMW drivers are a special sort of asshole. It's not necessarily that they drive aggressively, rather it's that they drive like they own the road and that nobody else exists. Things like driving at their preferred speed rather than the speed of traffic/the road (e.g. left lane rolling roadblocks and doing 85 in a 40), not using turn signals or merging appropriately into traffic, and poor lane discipline (seems I see more BMW drivers on their phone while driving).
At least in Colorado, I've observed that Tesla drivers are basically BMW drivers that have an even higher opinion of themselves because they're "saving the environment" or they're Ubers, pretty much only one of the two. Everything I said about BMWs applies to Tesla drivers here as well, except you get the addition of them taking off from stop lights with all the torque they can muster to light-speed across intersections within moments of the light turning green (meaning they're at risk of being involved in a crash with somebody who runs a red/squeezes the lemon and misses).
On the other hand, every time I see a Porsche, it's usually an older guy who is meandering along in the right lane, drives very respectfully, and generally drives like they just desperately don't want anyone to fuck up the car that is their prized possession. I have never seen a Porsche driver driving aggressively on the road here, in many many many miles of driving.
I've been fortunate enough to own both Subarus (Imprezas) and Porsches in my time. As another commenter mentioned, I purposely bought these to "hoon around in".
I didn't have a crash but I wonder if this was more down to luck than better judgement/driving skills. I'm older now, have kids and a better grasp of statistics. I drive a lot slower and considerately these days.
With all the AI fuss, I personally don't think it'll be long before cars are, if not driving themselves, will only allow themselves to be driven within the bounds of sense. Cars like this, and the drivers, will be confined to the race track and the "Porsche Experience Centre" at Silverstone, as per the article. I don't think this is a bad thing.
I think the more money you pay for a vehicle, the more privileged and superior it makes you feel. You get a superiority mentality, like all of you plebeians, get out of my way, I'm a rich important person with things to do. Can't you tell by my car?
Same in Central Florida. car zips by, darting between lanes Me: "Yep, it's an Altima." As for BMWs, they've become almost docile teddy bears compared to Teslas, leading me to wonder if the aspirational sociopaths have switched brands. And don't get me started about the suburbanites' pickup trucks with hoods higher than the top of my head.
(As always, it's important to note that not all Altima or pickup drivers are horrendous, but the rate of dingleberry driver occurrence is substantially higher with them.)
I am not convinced that ads cause bad driving. I would put it down to self entitled people being attracted to that same behaviour in the ads. And, yes, I think bad driving is down to self entitlement. My progress is more important than your safety.
A correlation observed between chocolate consumption and the number of Nobel laureates has recently led to the suggestion that consuming more chocolate would increase the number of laureates. . . .
Subaru does seem weird, but they're quite a popular choice for young people who do mountain sports (ski/snowboarding/climbing). Having lived in Denver for a couple years I tend to associate them with mountain bro culture.
We comment on the pony cars for their loud exhausts, but for lane changes, darting through traffic, blowing stop signs, “Yup, it’s a BMW”.
And it’s funny because we have a cat (a couple actually), and cats are notorious for getting under feet.
We were walking to the bedroom, with one of our cats, and things were getting crowded in the corner when our orange cat raced up. You could see him stop, paw at the other cat to move aside, dove into the gap to rush in front of us at which point he came to a dead stop.
Both my wife and I watched the whole thing. I turned to her, pointed at the cat, and said “look, a BMW driver”.