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Teen arrested in England after felling ancient tree (aljazeera.com)
70 points by defrost on Sept 29, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 71 comments



As tragic as this is. I think they should plant a new tree in the same location.

I know it won't be the same, it won't heal the wound, at least not for hundreds of years, if ever. But it's just how society and the world is. Great things are made and appreciated, treasured even, and endure for a while, then they are broken by something, one way or another. And you can't undo that damage, but you can start over and build again. And that's all you can ever do. And although it may not seem like much now, there can perhaps still be greatness in the future again if we start to build it now. That greatness may not be exactly the same as the greatness of old, but it can be great in its own way.


> won't heal the wound, at least not for hundreds of years

I’d say the real wound is the total lack of trees for miles around this location. England has some of the lowest tree cover, 12%.

It was jarring to me, you go to a national park and it’s just bald hills stretching as far as the eye can see.

I am not sure if thats just how people like it, or they are just so used to it they dont question it


The price of being a dominant naval power for centuries


In the age of sail. Sorry, could not resist.


that was a while back, should we plant some trees now?


Yes


I have been thinking that it should be given the to recover the best it can - it is a sycamore tree, so there will likely be some regrowth. It won't be the same, but eventually it could be beautiful in a different way.


"What exists, exists so that it can be lost and become precious."

- Lisel Mueller


The tree is likely not dead, the stump should send new shoots.


By "they should" I think the criminal should.


Alternative (and a bit far-fetched) theory, let's imagine a defense that could save him:

"Dumb but not malicious"

The kid was trying to get pocket money, and he was tasked to cut down the tree.

He thought it was a legitimate job, so he took down the tree.

This is also why he used professional tools like a chainsaw.

Unfortunately, we cannot identify the requester + the kid had no way to verify the Tree Preservation Order because of technical issues;

(the website with the TPO actually yields an error "This request was blocked by our security service (Imperva)" / "Page not found", depending on the dataset you pick)


Disappointing, and another in a string of humans destroying things of natural beauty. A few years ago, the Wanaka tree in New Zealand was severely damaged due to tourists climbing on it.

As an aside, I think it's quite interesting what various countries consider "ancient." A tree that's not even 200 years old wouldn't be considered especially old on the west coast of the US, but a building that's 100 years old would; in the UK, it's often the reverse. (I fully understand why this is the case, given the relative ages of the countries and their levels of deforestation, but it's a fun curiosity anyway.)


> I think it's quite interesting what various countries consider "ancient." A tree that's not even 200 years old wouldn't be considered especially old

It's not famous for it's age but because it's appearance and location made it a loved landmark despite it's youth.

Our oldest tree is the Fortingall Yew which is up to 5000 years old.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortingall_Yew


But the title says ancient.


The title isn't even coming from England.


I'm not saying that it's actually ancient, and neither I nor the original commenter was talking about the tree, or what it's famous for.

Anyone who read the article already understands what it's famous for.

I'm saying that the previous comment did not claim the tree was famous for it's ancientness. Their remark simply remarked upon what the title said, and by implication, anyone who would write it.

They aren't talking about the tree, or what it's famous for. They are talking about the title author.


From a human point of view


Clearly not necessarily if so many humans disagree.


>our oldest tree

That's in Scotland not in England.


I responded to a post about cultural perceptions of tree age IN THE UK and I can do without the petty nationalism, thanks.


Aljazeera is based in Qatar - an environment not known for trees. The native Sidra tree only lives for 50-100 years. So in that context 300 is fairly ancient.

https://unfccc.int/process/conferences/pastconferences/doha-...


www.ancienttreeforum.org.uk says: "Ancient trees are those which have reached a great age in comparison with others of the same species." "A birch tree could be considered as ancient at 150 years old, for example, but an oak tree would not be thought of as ancient until it’s at least 400 years old."

I'm not sure everyone would understand the expression in that way, though.

(As already discussed in the Wikipedia talk page, now that this tree has been felled, someone should count the rings and tell us exactly how old it was!)


It's not the reverse. Nobody in the UK was calling this tree ancient.


The sad thing is that we know what and where the oldest tree in the world is, but it's deliberately kept secret so that idiots don't intentionally go cut it down for the lulz/views/likes/just because


Did the teen fell it? Report I read was police were still seeking info and the kid was only "assisting them with their inquiries" -- which may or may not be a police-talk euphemism, I have zero idea!

This is so tragic tho. But not really the kind of thing I think locking someone up will solve. I'm thinking more like 5000 hours of community service planting forests all over England. It's not going to bring the poor little tree back...but maybe it can turn a lesson in someone's mind... need to make some good come out of this tragedy.


He was arrested, not questioned, so they must have reasonable grounds to suspect he was involved in a crime for which his arrest is necessary (https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-of-arrest-your-rights)

That doesn’t necessarily mean they have indications he felled it. He could have been there with somebody else, for example, or they may have evidence that he provided the chainsaw.

I do wonder about that “for which his arrest is necessary” part. What would make that necessary in this case?


Generally there are three reasons for keeping suspects locked up:

- When there is a worry that they will continue in criminal activities

- When there is a worry that they might influence other suspects

- When there is a worry that they might escape the country

There is also a fourth one, which is usually not legitimate in democracies:

- To make the suspect uncomfortable and more likely to plea guilty


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-66957589

"A boy, 16, has been held on suspicion of criminal damage and bailed"


Ah, right. I read it a couple hours ago on the BBC. They must have updated it.


The police said "they had evidence it had been felled" under a picture of a tree stump covered in chainsaw marks. It is just how they speak.


This is entirely police talk for “we think he did it, but it needs to be proven”.


Holding this (and my emotional reaction to it) in mind while reading the State of Nature report 2023 [1]

Around 1 in 6 species are at risk of extinction from Great Britain, discussing trends over the last 50 years or so, following centuries of major changes to ecosystems and habitats.

Something iconic [2] in imagery/memory/culture, next to clear summary and review.

[1] https://stateofnature.org.uk/ [2] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/gallery/2023/sep/28/hadr...


Funny how something insignificant like this make a big news, but corporates destroying swarths of forests (1) and ecosystem for billions of dollars and get zero or little coverage.. maybe I’m a little cynical but I think we are at the stage of society that it’s ok to attack others as long as they are in the same class as you or even lower, but things take a different turn when they are higher one, and I don’t mean the direct fear of being sued for example, no, even between each other behind closed doors, you don’t see the same anger against corporates/higher classes as it’s against other of the same or lower one, truly sad situation.

(1) https://phys.org/news/2019-10-tropical-deforestation-scienti...


To add to class things - there is constand scrutiny towards the lower class labour - they dont want to go to the office, if benefits are too high, noone will work, are they getting paid too much, etc.

I have never heard anyone say that investors are lazy and not doing their job. What kind of idiots invest in Theranos without doing due dilligence? Why is infrasteucture lacking investment? Why is more money slocking around speculation instead of the real economy?


There is the quote attributed to Stalin:

> The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of a million is a statistic.


The issue here is not the tree. But human breaking the law. I’m sorry to be that person , but trees are replaceable fortunately for us, I can’t understand how this crime takes the spot before the UK scandals which are … outrageous


The real crime is the fact that it's the only tree for miles, as far as the eye can see

I recently climbed some hills in wales, like 5 miles, there were Zero trees the entire way.

PS: just checked photos from the trip, no trees on any of them. Kind of makes me sad..


Previously: Land with no trees could be considered farmland and thus eligible for EU farming subsidy

What happened: farmers cut down trees, which caused flooding


What if I show up with a shovel and plant a tree on some hill in a national park? Is that legal? Would someone remove it?


There’s an article somewhere about how UK preservationists preserve the land as they knew it which is basically farms, there isn’t really a “allow the land to be how it was for thousands of years” movement like you have in the US.


This is vandalism and you will go to jail (and the tree will be removed.)


> deliberate destruction of or damage to public or private property

What kind of property damage results from planting a tree on a hill?


> I can’t understand how this crime takes the spot before the UK scandals which are … outrageous

Bingo, exactly why it’s being overcovered, distraction and to keep people busy attacking each other rather than questioning the real problems.


I'm wondering if it's not possible to restore it. We have the technology to reattach an amputated leg or arm but not restore wood?


It’s not possible except by regrowing the tree from the trunk. Plants have a much different circulatory system that doesn’t have main arteries and veins that can easily be reattached together. Since they use capillary action to move fluid around rather than a pumping heart, the xylem and phloem are microscopic and distributed throughout the trunk instead of branching like human blood vessels. Aligning enough of them back together to keep a large trunk alive is impossible, especially since trees form calluses over injuries to prevent infection.


How come my grandpad had an apple tree attached to the pear tree? Basically a single tree having branches of apples and pears


Grafting works with small branches because enough of the callus can differentiate into xylem and phloem cells before the branch dries out and dies (via use of plant hormones usually).


Yes, it may be possible to regrow a coppice from the stump.


I was wondering this too, could it be repaired and continue to live?


Repaired, no. Grow on the stump/roots, yes.


Duplicate of discussion on this topic at - Iconic tree at Hadrian's Wall's 'Sycamore Gap' has been 'felled' https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37687887


I seriously hope the felling wasn't done for clicks on Twitch, TikTok or Youtube...


We probably have no experience in doing this with big trees, but I wonder if (probably after mastering the technique for some time) it would be possible to reattach such tree. It sure works with small branches even across different species.


Sycamore is one of the trees that has coppiced in the UK for centuries and there are hopes that shoots can be persuaded to grow on the stump and roots, but not quite the same as reattaching the trunk:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-66957589


Reminds me of the killing of the Tree of Ténéré. We must be the only species that kills old trees for stupidity, or for shits and giggles.


Just graft the old tree back in place, it's only the outer layer that's alive anyway? Drill a iron rod into the center, shorten it and reconnect the bark.


Legally speaking, what could happen to him?


Assuming the tree is considered to have been worth more than £5000 - quite likely - the maximum penalty for criminal damage is 10 years.

As a 16 year old he'd be a young offender so it would be a special youth prison.

I'm curious how a 16 year old had access to a chainsaw. My guess is someone - parents or friends - incriminated him.


> My guess is someone - parents or friends - incriminated him.

Given he was 16, there's probably a good chance the muppet posted a video or picture on social media.

In some ways what happens legally is the least of his problems. If found guilty he will likely become as reviled as the cat bin woman:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/19/cat-bin-woman-...


> I'm curious how a 16 year old had access to a chainsaw.

Presumably a parent had a chainsaw, kept it in the garage, and the teen had access to the garage.

And 16 isn't that young - you can leave school at age 16 and start working full time.


In farming areas 16 is way past the age when you’d have access to major and expensive farm equipment.

A chainsaw is nothing compared to those, but you’d want some assurances they wouldn’t cut themselves (e.g. be large enough to handle it).


Does that mean that in the UK if someone breaks a maxed-out MacBook voluntarily they risk up to 10 years in prison?


If the powers in this have actually begun yet (I'm unclear given the future tense), unlimited fines, plus the possibility of… prison time if he doesn't plant another one? That doesn't seem right…

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-powers-to-crack-down-...


Since he's a child, probably not much.


[dead]


Your facts are completely wrong, the case you're referring to has been headline and front-page news on the BBC website for 2 days, I only heard about the tree through this hn link.


Pretty sure that someone felling a 200 year old woman would be seen as pretty horrifying as well. :p


The awful stabbing was on literally every front page yesterday.


I certainly do not think you're correct at all. A lot of people are talking about the case you referred to.


“Dog bites man” wouldn’t make headlines, but “man bites dog” would. Doesn’t say anything about the level of human suffering and empathy.


> “Dog bites man” wouldn’t make headlines

Dogs biting humans made headlines in the UK multiple times in the last few weeks.

I understand this is a saying, just pointing out that right now it is less than true. :)


I suppose that you are in a position to be measuring the differences in societal sentiment re different news events?

I agree. Society’s attitude toward DV / violence against women is abhorrent. This sort of whataboutism is not the answer. It doesn’t help any cause. You’re doing it for selfish reasons.




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