Yes definitely, I also worked there during that time, and agree with the idea that Google didn't get JS. This is DESPITE coming out with 2 of the greatest JS applications ever -- GMail and Google Maps -- which basically started "Web 2.0" in JS
I always found that odd, and I do think it was cultural. At a certain point, low-level systems programming became valued more, and IMO it was emphasized/rewarded too much over products. I also agree that GWT seemed to be more "staffed" and popular than Closure compiler. There were a bunch of internal sites using GWT.
There was much more JS talent at Yahoo, Facebook, etc. -- and even eventually Microsoft! Shocking... since early Google basically leap-frogged Microsoft's hotmail and I think maps with their JS-based products. Google Docs/Sheets/Slides was supposedly a very strategic JS-based product to compete with Microsoft.
I believe a lot of it had to do with the interview process, which was very uniform for all the time I was there. You could never really hire a JS specialist -- they had to be a generalist and answer systems programming questions. I think there's a sound logic in that (JS programmers need to understand systems performance), but I also think there's room for diversity on a team. People can learn different skills from each other; not everyone has to jump through the same hoops
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This also reminds me that I thought Alex Russell wrote something about Google engineering not getting the WEB! Not just JavaScript. It's not this, but maybe something similar:
I don't remember if it was an internal or external doc. I think it focused on Chrome side things.
But I remember thinking that too -- the C++ guys don't get the web. When I was in indexing, I remember the tech lead (Sitaram) encouraged the engineers to actually go buy a web hosting account, and set up a web site !! Presumably because that would get them more in touch with web tech, and how web sites are structured.
So yeah it seems really weird and ironic that the company that owns the biggest web apps and the most popular web browser has a lot of employees who don't value that tech
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Similarly, I have a rant about Google engineering not getting Python. The early engineers set up some pretty great Python infrastructure, and then it kind of rotted. There were arguably sound reasons for that, but I think it basically came back to bite the company with machine learning.
I've heard a bunch of complaints that the Tensorflow APIs are basically what a non-Python programmer would invent, and so PyTorch is more popular ... that's sort of second-hand, but I believe it, from what I know about the engineering culture.
A lot of it has to do with Blaze/Bazel, which is a great C++ build system, while users of every other language all find it deoptimizes their workflow (Java, Go, Python, JS, ...)
So basically I think in the early days there were people who understood JS (like paul) and understood Python, and wrote great code with them, but the eng culture shifted away from those languages.
It was definitely cultural. The engineering hierarchy was:
1. C++ engineers thought the only real language was C++
2. Java engineers thought the only real languages were C++ or Java
3. Python engineers either thought the only real languages were Python, C++ or Java or some of them thought only Python
At that time (I don't know about now), Google had a designation of a frontend softare engineer ("FE SWE") and you'd see interview feedback where a particular interviewer would be neutral on a candidate and soft reject them by explicitly stating they were maybe good enough to be an FE SWE, even though the official stance was FE SWEs had to pass the regular SWE standard plus some extra.
Basically, anything JS/CSS/HTML related was very much looked down upon by many.
Blaze went through some growing pains. At a time it was a full Python interpreter and then an interpreter of a subset of Python and ultimately not really Python at all. There was a time when you had to do things with genrules, which was an awful user expeience and it broke caching, two reasons why they got rid of it, ultimately.
But Blaze made sense because you had to be able to compile things outside of Java, Python and (later) Go where Java and Go in particular had better build systems for purely Java and Go (respectively) code bases. It got better once there were tools for auto-generating Blaze config (ie the java_library build units).
Where Blaze was horrible was actually with protobufs. auto-generated code wasn't stored in the repo (unlike Facebook). There were protobuf versions (although, even by 2010, most things were protobuf version 2) but there were also API versions. And they weren't compatible.
So Java had API version 1 (mutable) and 2 (immutable) and if you needed to use some team's protobuf but they'd never updated to API v2, you'd either have to make everything v1 or do some horrible hacks or create your own build units for v2.
But I digress. Python essesntially got supplanted by Go outside of DS/ML. The code review tool was originally written in Python (ie Mondrian) before being rewritten in (IIRC) GWT (ie Critique). For a very long time Critique lacked features Mondrian had.
Personally, I was always sympathetic to avoiding large Python code bases just for the lack of strict typing. You ended up having to write unit tests for spelling mistakes. I can't speak to Tensorflow vs PyTorch.
I suspect this institutional disdain for Python was probably a factor in GvR leaving to go join Dropbox.
I always found that odd, and I do think it was cultural. At a certain point, low-level systems programming became valued more, and IMO it was emphasized/rewarded too much over products. I also agree that GWT seemed to be more "staffed" and popular than Closure compiler. There were a bunch of internal sites using GWT.
There was much more JS talent at Yahoo, Facebook, etc. -- and even eventually Microsoft! Shocking... since early Google basically leap-frogged Microsoft's hotmail and I think maps with their JS-based products. Google Docs/Sheets/Slides was supposedly a very strategic JS-based product to compete with Microsoft.
I believe a lot of it had to do with the interview process, which was very uniform for all the time I was there. You could never really hire a JS specialist -- they had to be a generalist and answer systems programming questions. I think there's a sound logic in that (JS programmers need to understand systems performance), but I also think there's room for diversity on a team. People can learn different skills from each other; not everyone has to jump through the same hoops
---
This also reminds me that I thought Alex Russell wrote something about Google engineering not getting the WEB! Not just JavaScript. It's not this, but maybe something similar:
https://changelog.com/jsparty/263
I don't remember if it was an internal or external doc. I think it focused on Chrome side things.
But I remember thinking that too -- the C++ guys don't get the web. When I was in indexing, I remember the tech lead (Sitaram) encouraged the engineers to actually go buy a web hosting account, and set up a web site !! Presumably because that would get them more in touch with web tech, and how web sites are structured.
So yeah it seems really weird and ironic that the company that owns the biggest web apps and the most popular web browser has a lot of employees who don't value that tech
---
Similarly, I have a rant about Google engineering not getting Python. The early engineers set up some pretty great Python infrastructure, and then it kind of rotted. There were arguably sound reasons for that, but I think it basically came back to bite the company with machine learning.
I've heard a bunch of complaints that the Tensorflow APIs are basically what a non-Python programmer would invent, and so PyTorch is more popular ... that's sort of second-hand, but I believe it, from what I know about the engineering culture.
A lot of it has to do with Blaze/Bazel, which is a great C++ build system, while users of every other language all find it deoptimizes their workflow (Java, Go, Python, JS, ...)
So basically I think in the early days there were people who understood JS (like paul) and understood Python, and wrote great code with them, but the eng culture shifted away from those languages.