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A Fire Upon The Deep By Vernor Vinge (1992) (archive.org)
78 points by optimalsolver on Aug 1, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 56 comments



This is one of my favorite sci-fi books of all time (as you can tell by my username!). It has such deep and original world-building, three-dimensional characterization, an interesting plot, and its conception of the future is firmly rooted in the days of the early internet, so it's a pleasure for me as a fan of retrofuturism.

If anyone likes this book and hasn't read John C. Wright's The Golden Age series, I can't recommend it enough.


The whole trilogy was great, and I was sad when I finished The Children of the Sky because there weren't any more books set in that universe left to read.

Another space opera I felt the same way about is Peter Hamilton's Commonwealth Saga. There's also a trilogy and some other novels set in the same universe. 99% of the fiction I read is space opera, and the Commonwealth universe is definitely my favorite. So action-packed and enthralling, couldn't put the books down. As a matter of fact — it's been a few years since I've read them, and I'm almost done with Lords of Uncreation, so I think I may read it again :)


The Commonwealth Saga has so much world building and depth to it - with a really wide selection of characters and ideas. Some of which make people uncomfortable, but IMO that is the point of all speculative fiction - "what if?"


Children of Time has some complementary themes, ideas, vibes if you enjoyed those.


Interesting -- I read the Commonwealth books and really enjoyed them but still prefer his earlier Night's Dawn series.


> John C Weight

That's a name I haven't heard in a while. I remember that his Awake in the Night was a fantastic reimagining of William Hope Hodgson's (terrible) The Night Land

1: https://archive.org/details/john-c-wright-awake-in-the-night


Huge fan of him! Loved the Golden Oecumene a bunch.

This story is chilling and hints at a deep viciousness of character, which unfortunately does come out quite a bit of you follow him further. http://www.sfsfss.com/stories2/guest-law.pdf

Still, the first 20 pages of the Golden Oecumene are so amazingly stylized and interesting, and the whole thing is great.


I just read this in two sittings and it's amazing. Wright is a gem, I'm looking forward to reading more of his stuff.


He has this deeply romantic and fatalistic style of writing that appeals to me


Wow, thanks for the story. So many formats, but not a single one of just raw html with paragraph breaks I can read in a browser.


This novel, and the prequel A Deepness in the Sky, depict a human interstellar civilization thousands of years in the future, in which superluminal travel is impossible (for the humans), so travelers use hibernation to pass the decades while their ships travel between systems. Merchants, including the ones the book portrays, often revisit systems after a century or two, so see great changes in each visit.

<spoiler>The merchants repeatedly find that once smart dust (tiny swarms of nanomachines) are developed, governments inevitably use them for ubiquitous surveillance, which inevitably causes societal collapse.<https://blog.regehr.org/archives/255></spoiler>

People always talk about the future Usenet and such, but this is the most important single insight of Vinge in the two books.


Written in Emacs, so you know it's good! https://imgur.com/G6HXGCw


Ok I was initially going to ask why this book is on archive and posted here. Is it out of copyright? It was only written in 1992?

Anyway, I'm less curious about that now and more curious about the absolute eye blast this emacs picture is. I write short stories and grand adventures in Scrivener. I'm familiar with emacs, I don't use it or vi/m I'm an IDE person but this just.. I have no idea whats going on.

Is this an editor(s) and the author communicating via emacs notation? Like, what are these -

d2 -- editor? it/they/them seem to be making bullet points and spelling corrections. But then, what's PRB? What's ID?

CHK? d0 jrf?

then d2 comes back and does a d2 STOP and d2 START ??

CHK is back but it's CHK AFUD BKG

FRAG shows up

d0 jrf is back .. ok d0 jrf definitely sounds like an editor now

Well at the end here I think I answered my own question and these are various editors but if I'm wrong would love to hear. This looks like an absolute nightmare this is like.. 1 or 2 pages and that book was 624 pages. Also, reee, I bought that book in 2009. wow.


He's talked about the custom format he uses for the text files containing his stories [1]. He has a bunch of text processing tools that help him connect story lines and make notes to himself regarding them.

There's also out there a version of A Fire Upon the Deep that includes at least some of his annotations. I'll update with a link when I find it again.

Check out this thread [2] right here - it has a link to the annotated version on archive.org, and the discussion includes references to scripts to format it more nicely.

[1] http://www.norwescon.org/archives/norwescon33/vingeinterview...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24872593


Thanks for these links this is fascinating.

I'm going through his archived file on this Hugo and Nebula Anthology 1993 which contains his annotated A Fire Upon the Deep - https://archive.org/details/hugo_nebula_1993

So far I'm only at his intro.rtf file - it's a weird mixture of .rtf and .txts I'm not sure the rhyme or reason yet.

Regardless the intro.rtf first page is this which does a little dive into his process https://i.imgur.com/HuhBOAk.png

I wonder if he's absolutely obsessed with Obsidian now or maybe he has an absolutely interesting emacs config.

edit: He just answered all of my questions on page 2.. wow. https://i.imgur.com/m2nO2Am.png


My guess was: drN is notes from "draft N", CHK is things to check, FRAG is a note about a fragment that may be useful but doesn't have a home -- then some compilation software/scripts would pull out various bits at a time for different views.


That's probably a really good call I didn't consider this possibly being one persons TODO: messages. And here I am just TODOing everything.. huh. Do any of you do verbose/specific TODOs like this? I can't really think of what I'd make the topic. I use a TODO plugin that highlights TODO and FIXME but honestly only use TODO..

https://github.com/Gruntfuggly/todo-tree

edit: I'm reading comments posted above I had no idea that Vernor Vinge was a professor of math and compsci at sdsu. That explains quite a bit.


I just did a bit of a dive into his annotated writings, I'm still like 1% deep but this was on literally page 2 of a page where he describes how he writes (which is in another comment if you're curious) https://i.imgur.com/m2nO2Am.png You're quite accurate


Three-letter abbreviations are quite possibly the initials of reviewers.


In case you miss it I came across his thesaurus https://i.imgur.com/m2nO2Am.png


The subsequent prequel "A deepness in the sky" is also well worth a read.


Agreed ­— I was worried the prequel would be a bit of a money grab follow-up on the first one's popularity, but (1) it's a standalone story which is great in its own right, and (2) in the few places where it does have some narrative connections with the original, it is done very well, and tragic/bittersweet.


Yes, I am always worried about prequels for that reason, but I think I enjoyed this one more than the original. They are really very different in scope and story as you said, and the bittersweet quality of the connection between the two books enhances the ending of the prequel in my view.


thanks, i will give it a read after I am done with the main novel


Way better imo. The first one is good sci-fi, "deepness" stands above the genre.


Far better IMO. One of my favorite books of all time.


I don't want to spam this post and I'm not top threading after this at all. If you're an aspiring writer and Kings "On Writing" was a huge disappointment in the fact that he never really outlines his process and it just sounds magical that one day as a teenager his horror/alien fic started getting notice from scifi mags and published.. Read these vernor txts. He explains so much of how he works in a technical manner. He must be amazing at using grep, wonder if he uses ripgrep now.


Coincidentally, I just finished reading "The Children of the Sky", which is a direct sequel to "A Fire Upon the Deep". It's pretty good, though IMO not as good as the original or the prequel "A Deepness in the Sky", which other commenters have mentioned. The Children of the Sky feels... unfinished? As if another sequel is coming.

The 3 novels were published in 1992, 1999, and 2011. I wonder if Vinge is working on another one?


I've been curious about this myself, it really seems like he left all the major plot points open!


Agree, major disappointment.


This is one of my favourite sci-fi books. I'd put it up there with the Three Body Problem trilogy. Incredibly imaginative and a great story.


"Rainbows End"

And for HN see especially "True Names":

> a 1981 science fiction novella by American writer Vernor Vinge, a seminal work of the cyberpunk genre. It is one of the earliest stories to present a fully fleshed-out concept of cyberspace, which would later be central to cyberpunk. The story also contains elements of transhumanism, anarchism, and even hints about The Singularity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Names


For HN I think the most important work by Vinge is still his report from 1993 where he said we would have the technological means to build AGI and usher in nerd’s rapture in 30 years, which is this year.


I read Fire Upon the Deep earlier this year and it blew me away.

If you want to read his work, please buy a copy instead of using archive. Or borrow a copy from your local library. Authors still get royalties with libraries that use catalogs like Overdrive and Gardner, as most municipal libraries do.

Vinge is still with us and he deserves to get paid for his work.


U.S. public libraries do not give any royalties to the author when lending physical books, so in that sense "borrowing" the book from the Archive is not different than borrowing it from a library. There is indeed a trend of treating ebooks differently, but I'm not convinced that's a good idea---it seems like yet another example of strengthening the position of copyright holders over the public.


I can't believe it's already been 31 years since that came out.


Did Vinge ever say why the book's called "A Fire Upon The Deep"? Is it because of the space ship landing vertically on the planet?


I thought it was referring to the planet being "deep" in the sense of being in one of the lower zones of thought. And the Fire was the conflict of galaxy-spanning import that was playing out there.

But maybe there was more to it?

By contrast, the meaning of the title of the sequel "a deepness in the sky" is fairly literal once you get to know more about the alien species and their habits.


"A deepness in the sky" is literally (well not quite, but it's the text in the book) a line by one of the characters.


Besides other commenter’s suggestions I assume it’s also a reference to the opening of Genesis and darkness was upon the face of the deep.


Wow, I'm not sure how I missed that.


I remember from somewhere (A forward?) that he originally titled it "On the world of the tines", but an editor suggested A Fire Upon the Deep instead. Sounds cooler? There's a connection to the story as it develops.


I believe it was "Among the Tines."


I always thought it was because AI dominated the shallow parts of the galaxy, but there was something that wouldn't let it expand down to the deep.


Although the concepts in his books are original and interesting, I think the writing is overly-descriptive and pretty dry.

I think both books would have been far better as novellas, and not dragged out into 800 pages, with a lot of frankly pointless meandering storylines.

But I suppose for modern sci-fi it's better than nothing.


I'm not going to argue with your assessment but... what even is modern scifi? I'm almost 40 and after you saying this it made me wonder why all of the space operas I've read are from people nearly twice my age.

Are there any up and coming or recent space opera people I should be reading?


> Are there any up and coming or recent space opera people I should be reading?

Look around you. Are any of your friends/peers capable of producing literary works that are anywhere close to the work of Asimov, Simak, Heinlein, Garrison, Anderson, etc.?

The tech is already here, and the optimism of the flying car is gone. We see now that peak tech is used for nothing more than to sell more ads and make a paragraph of text eat 500MB RAM to "securely" display in your browser. Only after you 2FA to log in of course.


> literary works that are anywhere close to the work of Asimov, Simak, Heinlein, Garrison, Anderson, etc.

I think that many SF readers are way too dominated by nostalgia.

A friend of mine, the writer Ian Sales, has commented on this very effectively:

https://iansales.com/2008/08/21/dont-look-back-in-awe/

Further developed, 5Y later, here:

http://www.nerds-feather.com/2013/11/guest-post-why-i-turned...


lol that's a really interesting view on it. Ironically my next (or maybe first?) favorite genre is just post-apocalyptic stuff. I love the Silo series and my favorite book is the Canticle for Leibowitz.


A Canticle for...


Ann Leckie, Arkady Martine are two


Liu Cixin, specifically the "Remembrance of Earth's Past" trilogy.


Hey! I recently finished reading this, and am almost through the prequel (A Deepness in the Sky). Outstanding Sci-fi/political drama/fantasy.

These are a tier below Stephenson, Weir, and the Children of Time books, but if you're through those, these two would be my next picks.

This book and its prequel share pacing, plot flow/tension, and character archetypes, but differ significantly in the environments and levels of technology they describe. A Fire is more mystical and fantasy, while the prequel is more Scifi. If you enjoy one, it's likely you'll enjoy the other. I'm enjoying the setting and conflict more in A Deepness personally.


i would put them a tier above the ones you mentioned, personally! but then again, i really love vinge. outstandingly good books.


Strongly agreed.

Vinge and Stephenson at their best are peers.

Tschaikovsky is not in their league yet, I don't think, and Weir far, far below...


>A Fire is more mystical and fantasy

Refer to Clarke's third law.




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