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Electric bike, stupid love of my life (craigmod.com)
241 points by ingve on July 16, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 400 comments



Greatest thing about bikes, and this still applies to ebikes, is that you actually experience and participate in the city you live in. You learn the small roads, you see other people and they see you, you spot tiny businesses and interesting parks.

I lived in Los Angeles without a car for a few years. I often met people who lived here much longer but knew almost nothing about the local area despite having intimate knowledge of freeway off ramps. Cars are just so isolating. It's no wonder we see so much unhinged antisocial behavior from drivers.


I know people who can't get around without a car with GPS navigation. They do not know the way to the shops or their friends' houses.

It's interesting to me that road rage is non-existent between cyclists and pedestrians. It seems to be a manifestation of the frustration of being reduced to a metal box with a monotone horn, a couple of lights and the ability to go forwards and backwards. On a bike you're still a person.


If you are a tourist in a Dutch city you will quickly be disabused of the notion that there is no road rage between pedestrians and cyclists. Do not ever idly wander into a Dutch cycle lane, at any cost. You will be treated as invisible, people will cycle straight through you.

Should they for some reason take notice of you, they will not slow down one bit, but swerve away imperceptibly, infinitesimally, from a collision, thus making sure you are sufficiently rattled by the encounter.


Oops, I see everyone misread my comment. I meant to say road rage between cyclists and road rage between pedestrians. Not between cyclists and pedestrians. The difference is car people have road rage with each other. Pedestrians and cyclists intermingling is a problem with the infrastructure. Car people can't even blame that as they have the best infrastructure of them all.


Road rage between cyclists definitely still exists, and personally I can recall a few incidents (of my entire life) that might count as road rage between pedestrians. I think this is all proportional to how to can intimidate people with tool you have; motor vehicles are much more powerful so people become much more entitled.


As someone who bikes in the touristiest Dutch city of them all, we aren't going to hit you.

It is possible to do something so monumentally stupid as a pedestrian that you get hit and nobody could have helped you. That thing is to start crossing a bike path and then suddenly go backwards because you got scared.

As long as you don't do that, you'll be fine.

And the cyclists aren't nearly as annoyed by pedestrians as they are by mopeds.


That sounds pretty tame compared to US road rage.

It's what I'd expect by default when riding a bike on a fast street and it wouldn't even occur to me to call it "road rage"


I once saw a cyclist hit a pedestrian in Salem, OR. The pedestrian then beat up the cyclist to where I'm sure he lost teeth. Others called the police and I eventually left when the ambulance arrived. The cyclist was still laying on the ground, and the pedestrian was long gone.

Let's hope those dutch don't purposely hit an American.


As a novice cyclist I've been the target of angry exchanges with other cyclists on urban bikeways where pedestrians and cars are prohibited, because I go too slow, or get spooked by someone passing too close, or because someone cuts me off. It's not utopia, humans are still involved.


You've clearly never been on a bike path in America! Road cyclists wearing spandex suits are the most universally obnoxious group of assholes you'll meet here. They make Tesla and BMW drivers look polite, and will openly roid range on anybody that doesn't dive out of their way while they ride shoulder to shoulder in the middle of the path.


This is so universal that I’ve noticed that when I am wearing spandex when cycling, pedestrians seem to be really fearful of antagonizing me and act surprised when I do just what is right, like yielding for them, or breaking when they inadvertently get in my way. They clearly expect to be berated by me, probably because of their former experience with other spandex wearing pretend-pro cyclists


I know a converted railroad paved with asphalt decades ago going through woods for miles and an absolute respite from the chaos of human activity around my area. However, dealing with these "gangs" of spandex laden, wannabe pro-cyclists telling me to "get over" while shoving their way past me has made it stressful and confrontational. They remind me of the entitled suburban mom shoving her way up to the front of the line to grab her caramel macchiato because she's in a hurry to her botox appointment. And since this is Ashburn, VA...we have mega sized datacenters looming over both sides of the path like the heads of sentinels staring at you. I need to move further out :)


They take steroids and it turns them into narcissists with anger issues. See also: American Cops.


Check out bike YouTuber ZeroEnigna. The man does nothing but road rage at pedestrians.


> road rage is non-existent between cyclists and pedestrians

You must be living in a different city from where I live.


I have the opposite experience actually - majority of road "rage" incidents, which have only been contained to near misses or yelling, have been with pedestrians. Bike paths are ignored by pedestrians, they'll walk right in or through them, even when they look and see a bike coming. Pedestrians think they always have the right of way, and its very dangerous. This is in an American city though, btw, reflecting American city culture.


> I know people who can't get around without a car with GPS navigation. They do not know the way to the shops or their friends' houses.

You can use GPS on a bicycle ... Or even as a pedestrian


I've seen this argument before and thought it strange at first as in my experience road rage is everyday experience for me as a pedestrian. Then I realized that it depends on how much space is actually shared between cyclists and others. In Dutch cities bikes have their own space and it's not as common as here where bikes have to share the space with pedestrians. And with old ladies and their dogs. And with young people with baby strollers.


I have the same strategy of exploration except I do it by running. I recently moved to Prague and my way of learning the city layout is to look at a map and plan a rough route that connects certain landmarks and then I go out and try to run it by memory. Rinse and repeat and pretty quickly and I quickly end up knowing the city layout better than almost everyone including the locals. The only issue with this approach is that you naturally end up knowing your are much better than the rest of the city, but even that can be helped by starting out with a tram ride to some other part of the city and then running back.

That said I like doing this both by bike, tram/metro, _and_ by car as well. By bike it's the same process, but you see everything faster and take different routes. Riding the tram/metro connects you to places in other ways and kind of teaches you those routes. By car it's the same thing, but another level. For me the important part is to basically not look at any map throughout the process and find your way around by landmarks, signs, etc. Looking at a map before/after is fine, but during you should just be navigating own your own.


> you actually experience and participate in the city you live in. You learn the small roads, you see other people and they see you, you spot tiny businesses and interesting parks.

And you get cussed out by either drivers or pedestrians, because street design pits you against either one or the other...


Part of the experience. Some of your neighbors are jerks


> Greatest thing about bikes, and this still applies to ebikes, is that you actually experience and participate in the city you live in. You learn the small roads, you see other people and they see you, you spot tiny businesses and interesting parks.

Too bad you can't do that with cars or as a pedestrian /s


If by "experience and participate" you mean "get hit by a negligent car", then yes, I agree. I'll never ride a bicycle again until my city is serious about cyclist safety.


And your city won't get serious, as long as nobody is needing it ...


What city are you in? It will get better if more and more people ride.


The pessimistic view would be that it gets better as more people get hurt...


This is my fear as well. My state recently started a program to give people rebates if they buy eBikes, which is great! I have one myself. But I know we're going to experience a lot of collisions between bicycles and cars when there are more bicycles on the road. I find that the biggest issue is confusion on what is appropriate and what's not when you're on a bicycle, and when there is no clearly marked paths/lanes a lot is left up to interpretation. We should be setting people up for success instead of leaving it up to chance. Making mistakes shouldn't cost you your life or health. But it will take a lot of will and money to do that, and I'm not sure if anything expect loss of life will spur that will.


I made my own electric bike by purchasing a brand new Stevens City Flyer and mounting a TongSheng Tsdz2 Mid Drive motor to it. It is light, fast, and really easy to maintain. I've been riding it daily for the past 3 years and it has brought me so much joy. It changed where I can live and work. I'm running open source software, so the top speed is only thermally limited. https://github.com/emmebrusa/TSDZ2-Smart-EBike-1


Different bike but same motor, it’s a great setup :)


> The first time I rode one was nearly a decade ago, in Kyoto.

This isn't quite the primary thrust of the article but if you travel to Kyoto I highly recommend renting a e-bicycle to see the area. I will never forget the 2 days that my partner and I spent riding around there.

I can recommend 'Fuune bicycle rental shop' - the proprietor will helpfully annotate a map for you with recommended routes and explain all the turns and paths with a translator device.


Coincidentally, this past week, VanMoof, the X3 discussed in the article, closed all stores and are on the edge of bankruptcy, with a lot of media attention in the Netherlands.

Beautiful smart bikes, but the quality of components is horrible.


Sadly it is an over-funded (1) company that, it seems, didn't know how to pull back to cash flow positiveness when the music stopped. The bikes, meanwhile, are pretty but aside from the online tracking etc. (now an issue) there are far better options out there, especially for practical day to day travel.

The lesson for the sector is clear - make the economics work because funding rounds need to be based in reality, at least for now.

(1) https://electrek.co/2021/09/01/most-funded-e-bike-company-in...


Yeah very disappointing. I'm e-bike curious but they're all so _ugly_. Something with VanMoof style and a "dumb" drive system would be perfect. Give me a conventional derailleur-and-cassette in the back and an electric drive up front without screaming "this is an e-bike!" in my face and I would be the first in line.


I have a Rad City and I kinda like how stupid looking it is - especially the step through model, which I definitely have. But the nice part is that the bike components are all regular parts. Rad seems to be having serious issues as a company, which is a shame because for the price they’re good frames - but if they go under, it’s not like I relied on them for parts or service anyway.

Anyway digression aside, you might be happiest starting with a bike you like and doing your own conversion - either with a hub motor or a mid drive. Or have a look at REI - their ebike selection mostly look like bikes, with the advantage that they’ll also service them. That’s helpful if the manufacturer kicks it.


Funny you mention Rad, they seem to be another golden-boy eBike company that grew too quickly and is struggling. I have a Rover 6+ and am concerned about being able to get parts quickly in the future...


Yeah I have been eyeballing the Rad Wagon for a while. Seems perfect for me actually. The styling is very... Utilitarian. Almost to the point of charming.


I have the rad-expand, which also looks 'stupid' but I love it anyways. But yeah it's great that they didn't go the way of vanmoof with an app required to unlock it etc. If they do in fact go under my only concern would be a replacement battery I guess? Or is that all standardized (it looks similar to the batteries on all the rent-to-ride e-bikes I see around).


Yeah I think these batteries aren’t uncommon, as far as the voltage and form factor goes. My understanding is the biggest risk is safety. There’s a lot of junk out there, whereas Rad did a good job ensuring it’s supply chain on these. My battery is nowhere near any noticeable capacity loss so I haven’t really looked hard at batteries yet.


Same both on the concerns. You get stories out of NYC where couriers/doordashers store their bikes in their apartments and during charging their batteries self-immolate. In a few of these stories you hear about guys having done slapdash repairs on their batteries.


Is REI known to turn away ebikes needing service that they didn't sell you?


Ebikes are ugly (subjectively speaking) because of the battery, but there are significant trade-offs when you design that away, like vendor-locked designs and energy capacity/performance. Assuming battery technology will improve, which seems likely, ebikes should get nicer looking (again, subjectively) in the future.


The Gazelle Arroyo C8 is a Dutch e-bike (one of the only models available in the USA) with a beautiful design.


Take a look at Riese+Müller; they are a German brand that is also sold in the US: https://flyridesusa.com/collections/riese-muller-electric-bi...

They offer the same theft-protection/tracking/insurance thing Vanmoof had, but use off-the-shelf bike components. The only thing they lack is the "unlock through Bluetooth"-functionality Vanmoof had.


Have a look at the Giant Fastroad E+ EX Pro - it's no VanMoof style, but a fairly sleek mid-drive city bike with a frame-integrated battery using a 1x11 Shimano GRX groupset and proper brakes. Depending on region it's also fairly quick - here in NZ they provide electric assist up to 45 km/h.


I've already commented about it in the past, so I guess I won't worry about outing myself again: Aventure.2 looks sexy enough for me!


I don't think a Cube Kathmandu, for example, looks ugly.


A bike with VanMoof looks and software, but with standard components, would be a great bike. Maybe the standard components need to be improved to make this possible.


I have owned a Riese and Muller Load 60 (bucket cargo bike) for over 3 years now. It is the love of my life. My dog rides with me everywhere. Living the good life. So simple but so satisfying.

I have the same exact feeling every time I ride my cargo bike as I did the first day I rode it. An exciting open to the world feeling. It has never wore off. It allowed me to really experience the cities I’ve lived in.


> Depending on which country you live in top speeds will differ. In Japan the bike’s are capped at 24km/h. In America, 32km/h. Some places only allow for pedal-assist — meaning the motor only works when pedaling. Others allow throttles, blurring the line between bike and scooter.

I’m lucky enough to live somewhere that I use a regular human-powered bike for my workweek commute. I think pedal-assist e-bikes are great for making this accessible to more people. But I’ve seen too many Class 3 throttle-equipped e-bikes (really, motorcycles) blasting by on mixed-use trails to want stricter regulations on what counts as a bike.


I'm annoyed at these limits as I drive my bike on the streets, and the ebikes are not allowed to keep up with the traffic. In the UK the slowest speed limit for cars is 20mph, and ebikes cap out at 15mph.

1400KW Rimac is street legal, but a 0.5KW ebike is not.


The regulations are particularly annoying since people who cycle regularly (e.g. commuters) easily exceed 15mph on a regular non-racing bike.


>pedal-assist e-bikes are great for making this accessible to more people

They also make every excuse against bike infrastructure invalid.


The single most exciting thing about moving to the Netherlands next month is getting to ride an electric bakfiets with my kids every single day.


You won't be disappointed, and that feeling will not fade. I grew up in the US but live in the Netherlands, and when I see parents riding around with their kids and pets in an electric bakfiets, on bike paths along city and country roads, and on paths through the parks, I am so benevolently jealous of them. The kids always look so delighted, having the time of their lives, and the parents are so healthy and fit!

I can highly recommend getting an electric bakfiets with an Enviolo NuVinci Stepless Automatic Transmission Hub. It's a gearless continuously variable planetary hub, with an automatic transmission, that can change gears while you're stopped, automatically shifting from high into low gear when you stop at an intersection, then smoothly shifting up as you accelerate. Yes, it can actually shift while stopped, and while you're accelerating, and it's perfectly smooth. Get a carbon fiber belt drive instead of a chain if you can, too. Low maintenance, long life, and grease free!

Your kids will be safer and you will be much happier concentrating on driving and navigating instead of shifting gears, especially if you tend to forget to shift into low gear before stopping, which is a potential disaster with a normal derailleur and a bakfiets full of kids at a busy intersection, but not a problem with an automatic continuous transmission.

https://www.urbanebikes.nl/cargo-l-enviolo-automatic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYiXwhjlSMc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJ2f08RHD1Y


I've ridden the Citibikes with the gearless hubs, and I assume they wouldn't install something that breaks down easily, but it's so hard for me to imagine that something like that isn't a maintenance headache waiting to happen.

I do love the experience of using it though.


Thanks for the tip!


It’s great. I’ve never enjoyed daily life as much as bike commuting with my son, even in lousy weather.

My favorite memory of the trip to daycare happened on a shared path where I’d often see another dad taking his sons to work on a long-tail. One fall day, the boys were wearing superhero costumes and those bike helmets with the Roman warrior crests, and they were standing up on the running boards cheering him on as they raced down the hill. It was like a triumphal procession — and quite the contrast with all of the unhappy, raging people on the roads nearby.


“Riding a bike is one of the few activities left to modern man that gives the experience of operating a contraption, rather than a gadget or a gizmo”

https://twitter.com/boltzmannbooty/status/142692847167091917...


Pity about Van Moof though - and the owners if the cloud service disappears and they can’t ride their bikes any more.

https://electrek.co/2023/07/12/dutch-e-bike-company-vanmoof-...

[German]: https://zug.network/@moritzkraehe/110716829137328870


This is not true, even if it’s repeated a zillion times everywhere. As long as you don’t change your phone, smart unlock works without internet connection. And there is already third party software (which needs to connect to the Vanmoof servers once to save the key though). But you can always unlock by entering your code using the button. The real problem is that these bikes break every 20 km and there will be no parts or service anymore.


"As long as you don’t change your phone" being a requirement for continuing to use the bike I paid for is ludicrous. That said I saw this in an article just yesterday, maybe it solves the problem created by techbros wanting to build smart 'everythings': https://apps.apple.com/us/app/bikey-app/id6451117309


Definitely a shame. After reading the article I thought the S3 looked neat and was disappointed to see it is no longer available. The new model is ugly and uninteresting.


I'm glad to know about this - it would never have occurred to me to ask about such an issue when shopping for an electric bike! One more dumb "smart" feature to avoid...


They're putting DRM in everything these days.


I am considering buying an e-bike. However, I live in NYC and have access to Citibikes. I am a member so I can ride regular bikes for free and pay pennies for short trips on last-gen bikes.

So if I pay $1000 for a Roadster V2, what exactly am I getting? Sure, Citibike can be inconvenient: sometimes I won't find a good bike and sometimes I won't be able to park. For this, I'm not sure it's worth paying the prize.

Having my own bike also exposes me to risk of theft and having to carry it in and out of my apartment (I don't currently have bike storage in my building). Hence, it seems like I've already found my optimal solution.


What are people's experiences with folding e-bikes? I'm most interested in the Gocycle, but it costs as much as a used car. This Siggi https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/siggi-unfold-everyday-lif... looks great and only weighs 13 kg but has all the risks of a crowdfunding project (massive delays and initial quality issues). It's the first I've seen with regenerative braking, and you can pedal backwards to charge it.


I test rode a folding Brompton e-bike in London and am tempted. I heard they are working on a version with slightly larger wheels which would be great, but no word on launch date - could be a while.


They're useful on the train (my commute's train didn't allow nonfolding bikes, since the line heads to/from London which makes it crowded). I previously left my acoustic bike locked at the station all day; but wouldn't dare with an ebike, so I got a folder.


“Acoustic bike” as opposed to e-bike… I’ll steal that!


I took it from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36748080 but have seen it used occasionally elsewhere (e.g. Reddit's r/fuckcars )


You get what you pay for in foldable e-bikes


Remember that bicycle are the most efficient way to move a human, that’s where the Steve Job’s quote « Computers are bicycles for the mind » comes from [1]. This efficiency never stops to amaze me.

And an electric bicycle makes it way more convenient while still being quite efficient. I share the love of electric bikes with the author and I am sure that huge progresses in UX and efficiency are it to come in the field. Would love to work on it one day ! (But hardware is hard…) I am happy to see the subject on HN frontpage. If anyone know any quirky projects on the subject, I would love to know more !

[1] : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ob_GX50Za6c


Electric bicycles are actually more efficient than bicycles (which are themselves more efficient than walking). The combination of human power and electric assist uses less total energy than human power alone!


I wonder how is it possible to use less total energy? If you need to apply an amount of energy to travel a given distance, the amount can't be that different whether the energy comes from muscles or from an electric motor (or a combination of both). These are different sources of energy, but it's still energy.

I'd imagine the movement of the legs while pedalling would affect the aerodynamics, but is there something else happening?


It requires looking farther back into where the energy comes from. Humans are rather inefficient at converting calories in carbohydrates into movement. Electric motors are comparatively better at turning electric potential energy stored in batteries to kinetic energy.

Keep going this way and you'll eventually reach the efficiency of converting solar power to movement, which is again directly comparable, and electrical systems win compared to biological systems.


Wouldn't recharging an electric battery be more efficient than cooking the calories to fuel the human?


I would imagine that the efficiency of a human peddling depends on the speed. So maybe it's more efficient if the motor does most of the work to get you up to speed?


There are different technologies. Cadence Sensors are cheap but only good for long commutes an a bike lane, they don't kick in immediately (less efficient). Torque Sensor is only sensible thing to use in urban settings.


I would suspect regenerative braking (assuming that this is actually true).


Do e-bikes generally have regenerative breaking? I assumed that given their weight the amount of energy captured would be very low also bikes have very different braking patterns compared to cars (unless maybe if you're going downhill and don't want to go too fast).


Most don't. I can't see how the claim (ebikes are more energy efficient than normal bikes) could possibly be true in any other circumstance, tho.


Some electric skateboard do. I think what's stopping many to use it more generally is that you would need to disengage the system if you want to use your bike without the battery.

More complex braking system might introduce a lot of problems to a bike where that should be a simple thing, probably easier to have extra set of hydraulic brakes in case the battery is dead.


I'm pretty sure an EUC is way more efficient than any e-bike.


Not by much, unicycles are incredibly unpractical though


I'm glad Americans are (re-)discovering the motorcycle. It's like the 1960s all over again. But this time instead of Hondas it's e-bikes. I just hope they take a safety class and stay on the road where they belong.


I have a motorcycle and a bicycle. They're not comparable.

After riding my motorcycle in almost every European and Central Asian country, I'm about to sell it because every nice motorcycle day is a better bicycle day.

My motorcycle is stuck on the road. I can ride my bicycle to the lake and back along nice trails. All of my friends have bicycles, so they can come too.

I can also ride my bicycle wearing shorts and a t-shirt, and not lug a helmet around all day. I don't need thousands of euros worth of heavy, hot equipment. I don't need ear plugs that still leave me with tinnitus. I don't pay insurance or plates. I don't worry about inspections every other year or oil changes or tired. I need only five tools to fix everything myself, and it's dirt cheap.

I'm over my motorcycle phase, but I'll ride a bicycle until I'm physically unable to.


So do I. I have ridden both. Class 3 e-bikes are mopeds at a minimum. I see them on mixed use bike paths daily, going 20mph or more.


I was literally just on a bike/walk trail in seattle on my e-bike, probably going about 15mph and a non-e-bike blew past me like I was standing still. I'd guess he was clocking around 30mph. While e-bikes certainly can contribute to a problem of unsafe biking on a trail, they are not the only source of that problem.


Yes but I see a lot more e-bikes doing that than conventional cyclists. I attribute it to the very thing that is beneficial about e-bikes. They attract people who don't otherwise ride bikes. At least in my neighborhood (Alki) the fast cyclists stick to the road.

The scooters are the real menace. I see more mishaps on those than anything else.


Same. I prefer riding my ebike to work. The portability is great. It means I can just take it with me into the office instead of having to park it somewhere.

E-bikes and scooters are the future of city transportation for the able. I love them.


> It means I can just take it with me into the office instead of having to park it somewhere.

I'm glad that works for you. This is explicitly forbidden in my office, for good reason. It takes up a ton of space in the elevators and there's not much space in the office to store it. In the winter it would create a muddy, slippery mess. Most places I have worked have a bike locker for this reason.


Consider my statement amended to "in San Francisco" wherever required.


Yeah maybe different down there. Probably depends on the office space too. I'm in Seattle for whatever that's worth.


Unless there is already such a thing, I want to start an open-source electric bike (well, scooter/motorcycle actually, I see the pedals as more of a hindrance to adpoption) project this Winter.


Pretty sure it needs pedals to be legally classified as a bike, otherwise it is an electric scooter and a whole separate list of laws apply, but this could vary by state and country.


That's unfortunate that that is generally the case.

Many people go full-assist — twist the throttle and go. If they had to pedal significantly they would be disinclined to even ride an ebike.

When the power is out, actually pedaling an ebike is one of the worst riding experiences ever.

Pedals generally mean your seating position is higher, feet not touching the gourd when seated — this too will disincline a larger number of people from ebiking.

We should not be putting up hurdles for ebike adoption.


I agree with what you say, but would still replace the word "bike" with "moped". If it has a throttle, it is not a bike.


Its no longer ebike adoption if its not ebikes. What is the point of getting people to "adopt" what isn't biking?


Check out "endless sphere e-bike forums" and ebikes.ca.


By not having pedals it stops being a bicycle, and you are just creating another motorvehicle in traffic, defeating any purpose of an e-bike.


I like the poetic sing-songy tone of the article -- it does convey the joy of moving through the world on a bike. An electric one, even more so.

My city has a rental bike system (Bixi, or City Bike elsewhere) and they're clunky tanks, made to be abused. In the past couple of years they've expanded their fleet with e-assist bikes. They're amazing. They're still unwieldy tanks, but the boost makes them fly up hills with little effort.

In my limited experience with different types of e-bikes, the ones where you need to pedal to make them go seem better than the ones with some kind of a throttle / lever etc. The act of pedalling engages the rider more completely than sliding some thumb lever, it feels safer and more connected with the ride.


E bikes really are the best form of travel.

The only issue is how do you get rid of that ridiculous looking grin on your face. You just had a huge rush, got a bit of exercise, paid nothing for parking, eight pennies for 'gas', and beat all your co-workers who were stuck in traffic. The grin is real and not a good look professionally at the office when commuting.

Thanks ebikes.ca, endless sphere forums and Sheldon Brown. True spirit of the internet.


The problem of thieves is such a downer though. Against all kinds of bikes, really takes both the joy and the utility out of it. Same with owning a scooter and similar vehicles.

And even if you have good and safe parking at home and at the office (great!), which will cover the vast majority of trips it still limits the usefulness of a vehicle to be so tied up.

Yes, there are solutions/mitigations/compromises. But expensive and heavy locks suck and the ever present thought in your head planning a good parking spot etc. kills the joy of it.


I feel that one for sure. I live in San Francisco and was a dedicated cyclist. I had 6 bikes stolen in my first years here. But I was stubborn, got cannier, and kept the 7th long enough for it to look scruffy. Which let me keep it for years. But then it got stolen while locked up behind a 12-foot fence and something went out of me. I just gave up.

I still make occasional trips on the Lyft bikes, which are fine. And I've been thinking about getting another bike. But especially with e-bikes, which are much more expensive and therefore much better theft targets, I just can't sign myself up for years of fretting about theft.


I haven't tried but I'm curious about them: would a foldable (e)bike do it for you? You just don't leave it outside at all!

I've been eyeing the Bromptons but without a commute it's harder for me to justify the cost.


I had a foldable e-bike for two months (was great) in SF before it was stolen. Someone saw me ride up to my house and enter the basement entrance where I kept it locked to a pole in a utility closet. Later on, they grabbed a food delivery bag, told another tenant they were making a delivery, got buzzed into the building, and stole the bike. They didn't get either battery, but I haven't bought a bike since.


Very sorry to hear this, but I appreciate the tale as a warning.


> You just don't leave it outside at all!

How practical is this really? You bring your folding bike into the restaurant where you're eating, into the bar where you're meeting friends, into the gym (it doesn't fit into a locker), into the little corner store with narrow aisles, etc? I feel like taking the folding bike indoors can work for a commute if your office doesn't have dedicated safe bike storage, but I think it falls apart as an overall response to "I'm inhibited from using my bike as my primary transportation b/c it is an easy target of theft"


A Brompton is really small when folded. Smaller than a carry-on suitcase by volume. It rolls on little scooter wheels on the rear rack when folded. I bring mine into all the places you just listed on a regular basis, except for a gym. For a restaurant, it typically will fit under a table. At a bar, if you are at a table the previous thing works. I've also had the bar staff offer to stash it inside the store room. If someone you are meeting up with is DD'ing a trunk works as well. I've never been in a store so small I couldn't roll it in, you can just pull the seat up a bit and roll it in front of you.


This is one of the most insane things I've ever read.


Yeah, if I had a commute, I'd think about a foldable, although I struggle with the look. But a big use case for a bike for me is recreational distance riding, which is sounds like they're not great at.


Is there a model made where the motor, battery and electronics are all easily detachable?


In theory it wouldn't be too hard to take the battery, controller, and a front wheel with hub motor. But I think in practice even the extra few minutes to unplug, remove and reinstall, not to mention carrying all this stuff, would raise the friction to the point where it would be quite a chore.


Having stuff stolen sucks, but with bikes I try to think of it as just a transportation cost. A year's worth of transit passes in my city will run me $1200, so if I buy a $1200 bike and it lasts me a year before it gets stolen, I'm breaking even.

I've had 6 bikes stolen in a quarter century of commuting, but I've saved about $17k over what it would have cost me to use public transit for the same period. More importantly: cycling is enjoyable, I look forward to my morning commute on a bike. Not so much with other transport options.


Unfortunately, I'm not particularly money motivated. What went out of me wasn't a will to spend. It was will to deal relentlessly with all the nonsense.


Dunno if it would work in SF but in London I have an old rusty bike, left outside with a D lock and not many problems - there are always more saleable looking bikes if the thieves are at it.


I think it depends on the kind of thief. The last one I had stolen was indeed a battered-looking thing with low resale value. But I'm pretty sure it was stolen by some low-end criminals who were not very bright or effective.


Maybe get a folder bike?


did u ever put an airtag on it?


This was all before AirTags. But thieves are canny, so I'd expect them to be very good by now at finding and removing AirTags.

Supposing I did have one, though, what do you imagine me doing? If I know where a criminal gang has taken my bike, help me understand what you see as the next step.


I have insurance with a tracker. It costs about 10 Euro per month. If the bike is stolen, they first try to find it with the tracker. Bikes with trackers are usually put temporarily in public space close to where it's stolen during a cool-off period to check if the tracker is still operational/followed. Usually the insurance will just recover the bike from this cool-off spot. If the insurance company cannot find the bike through the tracker, they'll buy you a new bike.

Besides that, the rule is to always make your bike the least attractive to steal. Use two locks eg. a ring lock through the rear wheel and a chain lock through the front wheel, frame, and attached to something stationary (so they can't through the bike in a van and break the locks later). In general it's also good to put it in places where someone would notice if anyone tries to steal the bike, but not so busy that no one would notice and feels responsibility. Bonus points (remember the 'least attractive' rule), put it in some place where there are bikes that are much easier to steal (eg. not attached to a fixed object).

But expensive and heavy locks suck and the ever present thought in your head planning a good parking spot etc. kills the joy of it.

It's also a cultural/facilities thing. Eg. in The Netherlands many cities have bike parking with supervision and nobody minds if you attach your bike to eg. a lamp post. And most cities have plenty of lamp posts, so no real planning necessary :).


I had a coworker have his bike stolen on 5th Ave in New York City while thoroughly chained and U-locked to scaffolding at 9am with hundreds of pedestrian passersby in the time it took him to go up the passenger elevator and down the freight elevator.


Portable angle grinders and certain kinds of jacks. A nail clipper with a bic lighter can get through a cable in less than a minute.


Nowadays if you’re willing to spend $300 dollars on a Hiplok D3000 or Litelok x3, you can have a lock that takes 10 minutes to cut with an angle grinder.

So that’s progress at least.


I haven't seen such insurance, looks favorable. Bikes here are pretty much uninsurable (my opinion) and while I happily get a tracker I have zero hope of it being useful.

If you don't want a crappy bike you are going to stand out, guaranteed, and double locks won't deter.

Lamp posts is exactly what I had in mind, you can only have one to two bikes per lamp post. So depending on your destination you have your goto and a few backups ready planned.

Yes, double locks and a lamp-post in a public place will probably be good enough during the day, it is still such a hassle.


That kind of insurance is easy to get here in The Netherlands, of course it may be more difficult elsewhere. Eg.:

https://www.anwb.nl/verzekeringen/fietsverzekering


Where is “here” for you? I’m a wa state resident and have rental insurance cover bikes no problem


Murphy's law for bicycles: All bikes weigh 35 pounds, because the lighter the bike, the heavier the lock needed to secure it.


If you’re riding a bike you’ve actually weighed, the bike should be in your sight or locked up at home. If you’re leaving it locked up in public, that should be a different, far less valuable bike.


Oddly enough I'm the rare exception. I weighed my bike (21 pounds, hardly a lightweight), but it's thrown together from old parts, and hopefully not a theft magnet. But also, I'm conscious of the actual level of bike theft in my locale, and am not particularly worried about it. I can always park it next to a nicer bike with a less secure lock.


This rule doesn't work for ebikes that can weigh 70 pounds unloaded.


Although love of the new is gaining territory here too, let me share some once universally accepted Dutch advice: thou shalt ride an old clunker worth no more than the lock you secure it with.


There are many downers actually, none of which mentioned in that poem. People opening car doors right in front of you. Oil patches on roads. Dogs. Heat strokes. Inhaling all the nastiness that a car somewhat protects you against. But in countryside I imagine it could be very nice. Pity I never lived in countryside and never going to be.


Having rode motorcycles and an ebike scooter in the past, both of these have an integrated lock for the handle bars. This means a thief can't just cut the lock and roll the bike away because the handle bars are locked at an angle. The thief then has a choice of carrying the bike, breaking the handle bar lock, or awkwardly picking up the front tire and dragging it. All of which takes time and is obvious to on lookers and in the case of breaking the lock then the bicycle frame is now worthless.

I would like to see more ebikes include an integrated handlebar locks in their ebikes. Cheap and effective.


When my bike was stolen, they drove up with a large van, threw a bunch of bikes in the back, and drove away. A handlebar lock wouldn't do much here unfortunately.


Just put your bike on your renters or homeowners insurance. Mine is covered for theft with zero deductible.


If your bike is stolen and you actually make a claim, does that make your homeowners insurance more expensive going forward?


On that same vein, is there a limit of how many times you can make a claim on stolen bikes?


Not in my experience. Premiums only go up when I add more things covered e.g. specifically by zero deductible vs the general deductibles.


Have you tried a U-lock?


> The only issue is how do you get rid of that ridiculous looking grin on your face. You just had a huge rush, got a bit of exercise, paid nothing for parking, eight pennies for 'gas', and beat all your co-workers who were stuck in traffic. The grin is real and not a good look professionally at the office when commuting.

This is the most hilarious non-satire comment I've read in a while. The grin is indeed an issue


Ive been enjoying RTO because most of my commute is via the Elliott Bay Trail in Seattle. It really does put me in a different mood for the day.


I'm in ballard and my company has an office downtown. Two weeks back I needed to go in for a day as my home internet was down and decided to take my cargo ebike (it's been lovely out). I'm not sure I'd want to commute on a cargo bike every day, but it was a great ride, both ways, along the ship canal trail. (Little detour on the way home down to figurehead brewing to hit up the midnite ramen truck for dinner)


The little detours make ebike commuting fun! Out of curiosity did you cross the canal at the Ballard Bridge or somewhere else? I haven’t crossed that bridge yet because I really don’t want to ride on 15th.


I take the ballard bridge and it's one of the shittier parts of the commute, I'm considering swapping to the fremont route. I don't really ride on 15th. I live in old ballard so I just swing down though russel/tallman and onto 17th and then just take the the ballard way sidewalk to the ballard bridge entrance. The pedestrian path on either side is rideable as long as there is no-one else around, you may be reduced to walking your bike though. So yeah I'd avoid 15th proper and just take a side street down to ballard ave.

That said the ramen truck would be quite a detour if I took the fremont bridge as it's in interbay near fishermen's terminal.


It's not a good bridge to cross because the walk/bike part of it is dangerously narrow. Either take the Fremont bridge or use the Ballard Locks (which requires walking).


Thanks, I don't have the tech chops most of you have so I try to help out in odd places wherever I can.


I haven’t experienced it first hand, but I had one as I read your comment :D


> how do you get rid of that ridiculous looking grin on your face

Getting buzzed by an SUV or honked at a stoplight works for me


#1 purchase for bike owners traveling near cars: Garmin Varia. Cheaper ones exist, but this one a) pulses at drivers to let them know you exist and b) informs you on your head unit that car(s) exist(s). It's not a panacea but it'll turn a bad situation (inattentive driver) into a better one.


I feel like a paintball gun on a shoulder strap might help to discourage that behavior from motorists



Huh. I mean, fair enough, I suppose, but also, wtf.


The air zound, world's loudest bike horn, is another non-lethal solution.


I've been riding my ebike in public, aggressively, for over 1000 miles.

Where are you located, and what behavior of yours do you suspect these people are taking such issue that they're threatening you with their vehicles? Just being a cyclist?


There is nothing worse than using a bike in a dense city. I love cycling, but the moment you are confronted with high concentrations of pedestrians and cars it quickly gets unbearable and unreasonably dangerous.

Not to mention that it is impossible for some people, 1:30 with a train, 45 minutes with a car and about 3 hours with a bike, makes thr choice rather obvious.


Alternative take: I LOVE riding in a dense city. It’s exhilarating and gives me the wildest rush akin to downhill skiing on mountain biking, it puts me in a flow state requiring extreme focus.

No doubt it can be dangerous and no matter how honed my instincts are with regard to predicting how cars and pedestrians are going to act there’s always unpredictable risk, so I understand not loving that.

In another life I wish I had done a few years as a bike courier, I would have loved it.


A life or death obstacle course is absolutely not something I want to experience every day while going to work. And I am pretty sure that the same thing goes for most other people.


See, the problem you have is a large concentration of cars.


And pedestrians, who are easily as reckless and uncaring.


They don’t kill me if they’re reckless or careless, though.


It probably depends on the city but it can be surprisingly relaxing in London these days. They've build a lot of cycle ways. With the concentrations of pedestrians you just have to slow down a fair bit.


There are few things in the world that I love more than riding a bike in a seriously dense megacity. Zipping past everyone is such an exhilarating feeling. Everywhere I go I rent a bike.


Building a custom ebike that can do 50km/HR and then you can pace cars and it's s lot more harmonious. I spent a lot of time planning routes to work, preferred side streets and bike paths. Your not constrained to the shortest route when you have a bit of per power helping you out.


>Building a custom ebike that can do 50km/HR

Illegal. And suicidal.


Not a particularly nuanced take there - my road legal '250W' e-bike in New Zealand provides electric assist up to 45 km/h, which lets me keep-up with & over/undertake traffic in my dense city. Definitely doesn't feel suicidal, rather practical actually (especially compared to my 60+ km/h hill bomb commute on my previous vintage non-electric bike).


Where I live it is illegal. In a car, basically any accident at 50 km/h is survivable, even being seriously injured is rare. With a bike you just need one mistake to die.


Not sure with ebikes but with regular bikes the overall death rate is lower for cyclists than drivers in my demographic (oldish bloke). Cyclists may crash but drivers get fat and heart attacks.


> E bikes really are the best form of travel

Whether an E bike is the best form of travel is going to depend on a lot of factors. It's certainly less flexible than a car.

For one person who doesn't need to carry a lot and who lives somewhere that has dedicated bike lanes or can at least safely share the road with cars and where the weather is neither much too cold nor much too hot and there aren't daily thunderstorms, sure.

I don't mean this to be critical of E bikes or biking in general. I wish the built environment (in the U.S.) were more supportive of biking. Things like the weather are what they are, but the lack of dedicated bike lanes are a choice we made in the U.S. It can be especially bad in the suburbs and rural areas.

Personally (U.S east coast, mid-atlantic), I could reasonably use an E bike for a limited set of my trips in the spring and fall except the roads near me are hostile to bikes and there are no sidewalks in many cases. In the summer (July - Sep), an E bike isn't suitable due to heat, humidity, and on a lot of days severe thunderstorms.


When I lived in Southern Germany, before WFH, I went by bike (non-ebike) literally every working day of the year (22-25 km depending on the route). 35 degrees (just leave earlier), snow, rain, whatever. It was so great, you automatically build up a lot of condition, have a lot of energy when you arrive at work, and some 1-2 days every week I'd cycle back through the hills to get some extra climbing practice.

During the weekends I'd often cycle through the mountains/hills as well. Sometimes with our 3/4 year old daughter in a Thule bike trailer.

The only downside was that Germany doesn't have a lot of dedicated cycling lanes and drivers are either too careful or completely reckless around bikes. And it was definitely not normal for German standards, I often got questions from Germans how I kept up with it through all weather.

At any rate, I have so many good memories of the daily cycling and it's a thing that I miss now. We do pretty much everything by bike now as well, but we live in a city (in The Netherlands) and everything is nearby. I do frequently go for longer trips in nature in spring/summer. The upside is that cycling is much much safer here (dedicated bike lanes, etc.).


Yeah, weather is such a bad excuse.


Extreme heat maybe, but cold can be handled.


I know someone who carries a lot, lives in London (some dedicated bike lanes, not many), the weather is, uh, random at best, and he does the shopping, commutes from SW London to Farringdon, etc. All using an e-bike with detachable cargo trailer.

If I didn't live on the 3rd floor[1], or had bike storage downstairs, I'd get one ASAP.

[1] I need an e-bike for the same reason I can't carry 20kg up 4 flights - my right knee is functionally useless.


Used to cycle 25 miles a day in the city, like somebody else mentioned here its crazy how fast your tolerance and stamina build up, as well as your ability of handle what first looks like insanely scary traffic. Was the fittest I have ever been during my cycling years and I was beating my tube commute time substantially.

Been riding a motorcycle in London though for the last 15 years. A bit more effort to get started I guess but worth considering. From a theft point of view there's so many motorbikes about that a 10 year old boring one with a decent chain is quite unlikely to get stolen, probably cost less than an ebike too.


> If I didn't live on the 3rd floor[1], or had bike storage downstairs, I'd get one ASAP.

Folding bicycle?

* https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/a20048132/best-folding-...

* https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-folding-bike...

There are e-bike variants available as well.

(General consensus seems to be Brompton is (at) the top tier, but not cheap.)


Electric folding bikes are typically pretty heavy, I own a couple - my wife for one would really struggle to carry either of them to the first floor let alone the third.

Most electric folding bikes, the fold allows easy moving in cars/elevators or storage, I would not personally recommend them for multi-floor stair commutes unless you are comfortable with what you are getting yourself into.

I've also had two former colleagues trade folding e-bikes for folding e-scooters just to avoid the hassle of taking the folding e-bike up two flights of stairs at the office end. The e-scooters are far easier to maneuver/stow on busy commuter trains if that is a factor too - you can get roughly the same range at 50% of the weight and its far smaller folded.

As a typical example:

* https://www.radpowerbikes.com/products/radexpand-electric-fo...

That's a 64lb/29kg bike, and not uncommon for a folding ebike.


> Electric folding bikes are typically pretty heavy

Yeah, that's the problem, unfortunately.

> The e-scooters are far easier

Alas, they have the same "my knee is made of soap" problem.


I love in Norway and we have studded tires on our Urban Arrow during winter. It can carry probably about a weeks worth of groceries. That being said we have a car too, so it’s about using the right tool for the job: downtown shopping means using the bike, weekend in the mountains we use the car. If it’s a storm outside we usually take the car too.


Surprised no comment in this thread mentioned speed actually, apart from cargo space of course.

In my area traffic is completely quiet. In a car you can go 120km/h in the highways fine, and even almost that in some specific non highway streets.

I always want to get one until I remember:

1. I WFH and “university FH”. Both are >100km from my house for when I rarely need to go.

2. My gym is 15km away and I barely get there in time in my car at the aforementioned speeds. There are no closer ones.

3. My non-e-bike is just my weekend workout (which I love) but if using for workout, e-bike doesn’t make much sense.

4. The only other use case for my car is getting groceries for my entire family or other cargo heavy things.


> if using for workout, e-bike doesn’t make much sense.

If you have time,

or don't have time, but still want variety in your route/scenery,

there's no better option.


While I didn't completely replace my car, I was able to go a couple of months on each tank and reduced my insurance to the casual driver level.


Depends. If you're out in the boonies with nothing but shoulderless rural highway roads then yeah, ebikes aren't great, but for the majority of Americans (let alone westerners or people in general) ebikes are more than enough.

I'm 6'2" 260lbs and can ride a lectric xpedition all over Seattle hills with my girlfriend on the back and enough gear to have a picnic and go shopping for a fun day out. The same bike has a two seater orbiter for little kids on the back and still room for cargo.

I just got back from Paris and Amsterdam. In Paris, I saw a dude riding a bike towing a trailer with 6 more ebikes on it. This was around Montmartre, which is notoriously hilly.

In Amsterdam, there's this thing called a bakfiet, which is super popular and carries even more cargo than that lectric bike I have. It's big enough for you to put two teenagers into with a parent driving, or two dogs comfortably, or enough groceries for your doomsday shelter.

I don't buy the cold either. Bar mitts exist, and are on almost every bike in NYC, which definitely gets cold in the winter. I've seen it in Boston too. You can also get studded tires for the snow, and to be real I'd rather lose control in the snow on a <100lb bike over a >2000 pound car if the snow is really that bad.

That said, yeah, there's no climate control in a bike. If you dress in layers and with the appropriate gear it's mitigated but definitely less convenient imo. Also if you're a super commuter, yeah ebikes will take forever, but to be fair super committing sucks regardless. Sucked my life out doing 3-5 hours a day in Philly traffic back when I was doing that, really happy and privileged not to have to do that anymore. The gas was stupid expensive too, I was filling up every other day at minimum.

I'm not saying we should get rid of cars. I am saying that there are and always have been alternatives, and those alternatives are pretty darn nice these days, and for me better in every case save for Costco runs and camping/road trips. Mostly, I'm saying that we shouldn't resign ourselves to being car dependent, because it sucks.

After getting my first big boy west coast job, I was determined to never have to go through the bs trauma I got being car dependent again, and I'm much happier for it.

No more getting stuck on the PA turnpike for hours due to an overturned 18 wheeler. No more rear end collisions from rush hour cloverleaf merging. No more snow rusting out my brake lines and limping back to my mom's house to replace them with my dad before driving back to college to drop my gf off for work. No more borrowing a friend's car because my transmission gave out and my office had a super restrictive WFH policy. No more hailstorms and dealing with insurance who didn't want to cover the brand new rental car I was using when my transmission failed (yes that was literally the same month). No more inspections or tags or biannual maintenance or anxiety over how to get to work when things go wrong. No more stressing about geopolitics affecting the price at the pump when I was barely making enough to get by in the first place.

After 7 car free years in Seattle, I bought a car again. I love my Subaru. I've modded it a ton, and drove it all over the west coast. I will continue using my Subaru. My Subaru is a luxury, and it is a convenience, and I'm so much happier that I don't need to treat it as a requirement to earn a living or feed myself or whatever.


>In Amsterdam, there's this thing called a bakfiet, which is super popular

It's not super popular. The things are a hassle to carry anything with, and any small things are easier done with a regular bike with a satchel or just carrying the bags. Doubly so in a place like Amsterdam, where general commodities are within walking distance and any big things are near a central station.

>It's big enough for you to put two teenagers

Two teenagers? With the average Dutch height? Are you trying to break their legs?


You got a point on dutch teenager height lol. By super popular I mean most blocks id see at least one or two parked or riding by me. I was staying around the museum district. To your point though I suppose when there's like 50 bikes per street in some of those areas along the that doesn't make it "super popular". ( https://maps.app.goo.gl/SDP55mmEDotWMuaK8 )

I've seen them before in Seattle too around 2017 when prime now was still a thing.

I shouldn't have said super popular, you're right, and more like early than late teenagers (thinking of my brothers), and even then I don't think it would be comfortable. I am saying they're an option if you really need the cargo room though.

Stuff like this is comically large imo

https://urbanarrow.com/family-bikes/family/

And then there's the absurd https://www.icebike.org/biggest-cargo-bike/

Realistically this is my gf's bike, albeit with the running boards and a pop up basket in place of one seat in the back

https://ebikeescape.com/lectric-xpedition-review/

And this is a newer trim of my bike, although I have paniers and a pop up cargo basket on the rear rack

https://www.juicedbikes.com/products/ripcurrent-s


dcrainmaker, who does reviews of sports-related tech devices, has written an annual blog entry when he gets a Christmas tree.

Now that he lives in Amsterdam with three young children, he goes Christmas tree shopping with a cargo bike with the kids in the front cargo space.

2020: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2020/12/getting-the-christmas-tr...

2021: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2021/12/getting-christmas-by-bik...

2022: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2022/12/getting-christmas-by-bik...


Temperature is not an issue in most places.


>For one person who doesn't need to carry a lot

Transport e-bikes can take several people, furniture etc. No problem bicycling in bad weather either, people regularly bike in ice and snow.


A problem with the ridiculous grin is that people somehow assume riding a bike is purely a source of personal gratification or irrational indulgence at the expense of others. Like being cheerful while you're working. Or working from home.


How does riding a bike come at the expense of others?


Because "This road is blocked because of that one cyclist, definitely not because of thousands of cars each carrying only a single person." or "If that bike lane wasn't there there would be no traffic. Just one more lane bro"


There's a widespread perception that we get in the way of traffic, take frivolous risks, and demand infrastructure changes to be made on our behalf.


I'm eyeing an e-bike but part of me is afraid that I won't exercise as much and get lazy. Currently I bike often and get a pretty good daily workout as I climb into town.


I have found the opposite to be true: it removes excuses not to cycle, and going faster means we ride longer. We’ve gone long enough without starting our car that I had to jump it a couple of time.


Thanks!


One other thought: if you’ve ever been annoyed by cargo capacity, flats, etc. e-assist is a great leveler. I stopped worrying about the weight of my lock, heavy duty tires, etc. because I have an e-cargo bike with a kid on it, which is liberating compared to sweating grams on a road bike. (Not that a good road bike isn’t fun but it’s way less practical)


Thanks that is useful. Indeed I worry about cargo weight and sometimes avoid to take things I'd otherwise rather have with me.


I lived up the top of a big hill which used to be grueling climb on my old non-electric bike. Now with the e-bike, I have the choice of taking it slow and not having to put in much effort, or I put in lots of effort but I'll be going twice as fast compared to my old bike and can carry a load of groceries in my panniers.

Essentially, it becomes a choice whether or not you want to use it as workout.


I get the same with a motorbike.


The smile of a totally able-bodied person living in a temperate climate heading to a job that doesnt require them to haul much more than thier own bodyweight to work. Not everyone can physically ride a bike. Not everyone lives in sunny california. Not everyone has the luxury of a single-location office job a few miles from home. Workmen drive pickup trucks for reasons.

There was so much smoke at my work on thursday (forest fires) that those who biked in were hitching rides home because physical activity outside was to be curtailed due to air quality.


Not everyone can drive a car either. No-one is making the point that there has to be one method of transport to rule them all.


It amazes me how little attention e-bikes are given in terms of reducing traffic, pollution, CO2 etc. The BBC is especially bad at this - they promote lots of articles singing the praises of electric vehicles (i.e. cars) and almost never mention e-bikes as being far better for a lot of use cases.

It also grinds my gears that there's tax breaks for getting e-cars and nothing for getting e-bikes. It's almost as if politicians are employed by car manufacturers.


Social researchers have dubbed this phenomenon "motonormativity"[1] and it is remarkably powerful.

[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/17/motonormativit...


Also disparagingly known as car-brain.


Perhaps to defuse the denigrative aspect of the term we should think of it as analogous to the 'lizard brain' as not a disease but something of an interior module we all have within us - on a day to day basis most people can generally introspect on the contributions of the lizard brain to our thoughts and feelings[1] , why not should we similarly introspect on the car brain and think on a similarly higher order level?

[1] Tangential reading: 'Why Buddhism is True' by Robert Wight:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Buddhism_Is_True

https://www.npr.org/transcripts/541610511


Unless bike theft is solved, an e-bike will remain a toy for the weekends for most people. An expensive e-bike is a prime target to thieves.

They require a secure indoor storage space at both ends of the any journey, and many potential users lack that, either at their workplace or their home (e.g living in an apartment only accessible via stairs)


A big reason cars don't require secure storage is better policing. Here in San Francisco there's been a lot of talk about how the SFPD these days isn't taking theft from cars and theft of catalytic converters very seriously. They aren't wrong; the SFPD seems pretty slack to me.

But what they're missing is that the SFPD has always been like this for bicycles. A while back I had only locked my front wheel and my frame, so some dedicated thief stole the back wheel. I walked in to the nearest police station with the remains of my bike. The cop on the desk asked why I was there. "To report a crime," said I, holding up the bike. He looked befuddled, asking if I needed it for an insurance report or something. "No, I thought that the police might want to know about a crime." He shrugged and took the report, but clearly did not give a shit.

If cops took bike theft as seriously as car theft (which they should given that in both cases it can be somebody's primary transportation) I think we'd see a lot more e-bike usage.


I don't know what my local police are like for bike theft, but given how poorly they handle theft from inside cars, I have no hope that they can do anything about any kind of theft, ever. They even had a security camera video of the person, knew who it was, and even where they frequently are, but flat-out told us they weren't going to do anything because it was pointless and they'd just be back at it soon.

We weren't missing much from that theft, but some of our neighbors were.

And so it is extremely unlikely that I'd leave my cheap bike anywhere, let alone my electric bike or scooter, no matter how well-locked it was. It 100% goes with me, or I don't take it at all.


Wow! With a police attitude like that, the criminal will definitely "be back at it soon".


Name and shame the region.


> theft of catalytic converters very seriously

Cops don't care about it, virtually nowhere in the World

The same goes for bikes in most cities. Strangely enough they seem to care about theft of jewellery more, even if a bike is more expensive.


Cars once upon a time required a secure storage space for security. Technology improved, comprehensive insurance became a social norm, etc, and now you can just snug it against a curb, hop out of your car and press a button and generally not worry about theft, but if it does happen you're covered.

Why can't e-bikes be this way? My answer: they can and are, just not all of them yet.


Technology improved, but cars one main advantage. To steal a 4000lbs car one needs either a tow truck, or to enable the engine, or a lot of guys to push.

To steal a 15 lbs bicycle, one need only pick it up and walk away.


Same issue with motorcycles and people just buy insurance, which you can do with bikes too.


I can pick up a bicycle and walk away with very little effort. They're usually less than 20lbs.

My motorcycle is 500lbs wet. Close to 700 with full cases.

Are you really suggesting it's just as easy stealing a 500-700lb bike as a 20lb bike?


For most bikes and mopeds two guys and a truck is all you need to steal it. If you can lean it up after laying it out, theres probably a way for someone to leverage it onto a truck bed. Maybe just knocking it over onto a furniture dolly and pushing it up a ramp.


That all sounds like a good bit more work than a single person with a bolt cutter.

So you do agree with me, that it's a lot more work stealing a motorcycle than stealing a bicycle?


60 years ago it wasn't hard to hot wire a car. Car locks are very good, 20 years ago encryption was added so you can't start the car withour the authorized keys. Decades before that the lock was attached to the steering wheel so you couldn't drive even if you srarted.it. and car locks are hard to pick (unlike many house locks)


... btw, since we know how to make locks that are harder to pick, why _don't_ we use them basically everywhere including houses. Are they a lot more challenging to manufacture?


I was working on adding a deadbolt to an exterior door. I started doing a lot of fine measurements to drill it out because I didn't want to crack the glass which was kind of close to the edge of the door.

Which I then questioned what the hell am I doing adding a deadbolt to a door with a massive window. If someone wants to get in, they're gonna get in. The only thing that really keeps my family safe is the fact the vast majority of my neighbors don't want to hurt me, not some lock on my door.


Actually it is probably easier to punch through the walls bypassing the door completely as opposed to breaking the glass. Though glass does break and so that is what someone will try.


The vast majority of my exterior is brick, but the area in question is just vinyl siding so you're not entirely wrong. A few more layers to get through: the vinyl siding, foam backing on the vinyl, vapor barrier, old cellulose insulation, then interior wall.

Just further shows the futility of putting an expensive lock on a regular home door. If someone wants in, they'll get in. The lock is definitely more of a "please don't come in" than anything real.


In a practical sense the lock is an indicator of limited access.

The ability to gain entry is trivial given a few minutes and intent.

The locks in my house are there so the glass has to be broken. The glass is there to give me enough time to respond.

If someone is picking my lock they are involved in a hit, not theft.


When theft via lock picking becomes an issue, people will buy those locks. I doubt it will be an issue as long as bolt cutters and batter powered angle grinders exist.


I'm not an expert, but my understanding it is about tolerance and quality control, both of which increase costs. It is rare for someone to pick a lock to get into a house so it isn't worth the costs.

All locks can be picked, but it takes more skill for the better ones. Modern encryption is (so our math says, though i'm not sure what the limits are) essentially unbreakable, and so a better solution.


Locks keep honest people and opportunistic criminals out. A high end lock does you no good if it's left unlocked or an employee props open the door with a chair. If someone is willing to break and enter the lock is no longer the weakest point.

Cameras and alarms help a bit more.

The possibility of someone being home or men with guns responding is a big deterrent. Smash and grabs are usually done on cars not homes.


Good question. My apartment in Europe had a steel plate door with a gargantuan lock that with 10 latch points. My apartment in the US has a cheap ~$30 commercial deadbolt you could defeat by pushing really hard. I looked at getting one of those locks and the price was astronomical.


Good ebikes are/will be 75-150lbs.


wtf, no? How would a 150 lbs ebike even look like?

That's an electric moped.


Sur Ron light bee X is 110 lbs Sur Ron ultra bee is 187 lbs

So I guess it would look, almost exactly, halfway between these


The Light Bee X and Ultra Bee are full on electric motorcycles though, not exactly ebikes.


I think technically mopeds, but yes. It's a weird and convoluted space now. Just as an example -- people will purposely install bicycle pedals on Surrons to make it look like they are just assisted ebikes or something.

https://currentebikes.com/wp-content/uploads/california_elec...


Same cargo ebikes near this weight. I have the radrunner plus and it's 75 lbs.


E bikes are a lot heavier than 15 lbs


I am reminded of this reddit post and it's picture https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/13og4mc/thats_one_.... Most e-bikes have a lock on the battery that can be toggled to cut out the motor, though I think it can still be pedaled, but this is why you always lock through the frame and the the back wheel...


Still plenty carrayable by one person.


Car theft is rather more policed because a 2-ton 100mph+ car can easily kill or cause a lot of damage in the wrong hands.

Bike theft is down there with shoplifting or recreational drug use when it comes to policing priorities. But when a bike is stolen, often a person is losing an important means of transportation, so perhaps it should be taken more seriously.

Not going to happen in a ‘soft on crime’ society, though.


I propose, somewhat tautologically, that the primary reason why car theft is generally well policed (in USA, where my lived experiences have primarily been) is that it's generally a small enough problem for most police departments to get their arms around because of basic anti theft technology.

I believe the Kia/Hyundai debacle of the last few years supports this idea:

> So far this year, Minneapolis police have received 1,899 Kia and Hyundai theft reports, nearly 18 times the number for the same period in 2022. [1]

[1]: https://apnews.com/article/hyundai-kia-tiktok-theft-stolen-8...


I don't think this is a "soft on crime" question. As you say, bikes are a low priority. But bikes were long considered a low priority in things like road design. The lack of bike lanes isn't getting better because people are getting tougher on crime. It's because we're getting rid of some of the classist nonsense that treats people able to afford cars as more important than those who couldn't. And also because bike commuting has become a middle- and upper-class phenomenon.


It may be that car theft is more policed because of political pressure from insurance companies, and because cars were typically more valuable than bikes.

Fighting car theft lowers insurance rates. But virtually nobody insures a bike.


I would also imagine most police officers in USA patrol their jurisdiction in automobiles, not on bicycles. Number 2 is probably motorcycles.

I would also venture to guess that most officers don't cycle to work or in their free time.


Indeed, but their priorities are set by their departments and cities.


Car theft, at this point, is mostly a law enforcement issue. A very active, motivated anti-theft team can shut down theft rings and at least keep it down to a dull roar, versus almost total negligence in cities like San Francisco.

I'm particularly fond of theft magnets, very attractive stealable cars equipped with cameras and remote shutdown and a team watching from a distance. Park it at a mall or on some side street, wait for the trap to be sprung, and poof! One less thief on the loose.

Bikes, not so sure. A good U-lock and a plastic-coated cable are a start, but these can be defeated within a minute by a professional.

I just heard on one of the YT China channels that people are indeed taking their batteries with them when they park their bikes, not so much out of fear of common theft, but because the police are empowered to confiscate e-bikes for a variety of infractions and it's almost impossible to get them back.


Bait bikes are also a thing. E.g.: https://www.ocregister.com/2020/12/09/irvine-orange-and-othe...

I also saw Mark Rober speak yesterday, I think with Allen Pan. He mentioned doing some sort of video where they built bait bikes and used them to sucker thieves. And I think Rober said they are doing another bike theft project where they'll be trying to trace things to the higher ups.

So I think the lack here is more that of a motivated anti-theft team. But motivation may be hard to come by. Not only are bike thefts notoriously low priority, only 21.5% of SFPD officers actually live in SF: https://missionlocal.org/2023/07/sf-police-firefighters-supe...

Quality of life crimes matter a lot less when it's not your quality of life.


I put a two-way car alarm on my ebike and it works exactly like this.


Agreed. People forget that until the late-90s, many were still buying theft protection devices they installed every time they exited the vehicle.


All bikes are like that today. Just put it on your renters or homeowners insurance.


There's an interesting problem here in Bristol where a couple had improvised an e-cargo bike locking solution on the side of the road using a couple of planters. Unfortunately, the council aren't happy about it and are threatening to remove them. Seems like parking spaces are unfairly prioritising cars or at least aren't flexible in providing locking points for e-bikes. Bristol City Council do have a scheme for bike hangars which are placed on the road (take up about the same space as a car, but provide storage for about 6 bikes), but there's a long waiting list and a cargo bike wouldn't fit in one.

https://road.cc/content/news/cyclist-couple-challenge-counci...


I'm generally pro-cycling but I found this story curious. No-one can reserve spots outside their house, for a car or any other purpose. So it seemed they were arguing not for parity with car users, which I would unquestionably support, but for special treatment?

Although I don't really understand why you can't reserve/pay for the spot outside your own house, for a vehicle OR a bike, which would seem to me a solution that would please everyone.


Yeah, it's a tricky one as people shouldn't be able to reserve spaces outside their house on a public road, but they're only wanting to do that because there aren't any facilities to lock a cargo bike to. I think a series of simple metal hoops installed on the pavement (sidewalk?) next to the road would provide a decent solution and would also prevent drivers parking cars on the pavements which is very common with our narrow roads. It's in our interest to make it easier and more convenient to get people to replace car journeys with bike journeys and cargo bikes fill a very useful niche for transporting kids and other stuff around.


>Unfortunately, the council aren't happy about it and are threatening to remove them.

Quite rightly too - it's simply not legal for them to put it there.

There are proper processes in place to get an official hangar installed. These might be challenging, but that's the only fair way to do things.

I think the biggest problem with cars is that we happily accept the impact they have on the entire community, just so that some people who use them can have more convenience. The cost of having a car is passed on to everyone.

Similarly, with bikes it's never going to be possible for every single person in the city to have a cargo bike parked outside their house - there simply isn't room. This isn't ideal, but a situation where only someone who gets there first can do it isn't ideal either.


> There are proper processes in place to get an official hangar installed. These might be challenging, but that's the only fair way to do things.

I don't believe the council provide official hangars that can fit a cargo bike and there's a significant waiting list for hangars as well as needing multiple neighbours declaring that they're going to use them. Unofficial solutions seem to be the only thing possible.


They really don't, at least not in Seattle. I mean maybe if you're using cable locks yeah but the great thing about ebikes is that they have motors-- my big ass fuck off chain isn't a huge deal to carry around in the panier/basket, and it's easier to circular saw through my frame. You can also do the motorcycle integrated wheel locks, or spend like 30 bucks for one that gets set off by the vibrations caused by cutting

Hell even if my bike got stolen every month it's still cheaper to just buy a new one than car ownership once you factor in gas and maintenence, let alone parking.

I hate parking. Not paying for it, but finding a spot. It sucks. And I'd rather deal with someone taking something off my bike than smashing my window again.

Idk man, I encourage anyone to give an ebike a try. They're fantastic.


I have a cargo e bike, I use it for everything from hardware store, to nursery, to Costco, to child transport. It's an incredibly versatile mode of transport and it's what I use for about half of my local travel now.

With a heavy chain and a cafe lock, theft is pretty low on my list of concerns.


Solved it by buying crappy police auction bikes, defective power tool battery packs off eBay and cheap hub motors from China. Make the bike look ugly take your home made soldiered pack with you when you park. $1500-4000 depending on how fast and how far you need to go. I can rearrange the packs and there isn't a bike that is faster, but 48 volts at about 50km/hr is the sweet spot for safety and practical commuting. Nobody is going to hassle you about an illegal bike if you don't ride like an idiot.


My father took the “make it too ugly to steal” approach with his bicycle in college. Still got stolen.


In Finland there was a trend to paint bikes in gnarly solid colors. My buddy chose pink. Too ugly, and too much work to unidentifiable.


Berea College in Kentucky doesn’t allow first year students to park cars on campus, so even in the summer there are many bikes lined up outside the buildings.

I wandered around a few weeks ago taking photos of all of the pink bikes because I appreciated them: my Jeep is a lovely fuchsia.


>defective power tool battery packs off eBay

They have some good cells and some bad ones?


Yes, I did this 15 years ago with the Dewalt A123 cells. Usually only one cell had failed. Betty you could still do the same.


police auctions of confiscated scooters, ones that folk abandon on the wrong place and get impounded are a great source of cells.

hit up the homebrew powerwall forums for more sources.


Brilliant!


It seems pretty simple to replace one car parking space with secure parking for five or so bicycles. Just need to massively reduce spending on car infrastructure and other subsidies for cars and reallocate the money to bicycles instead.


The sales of e-bikes are not consistent with your statement. The market does not think this is a showstopper.


Or you use a folding bike, where you just bring it with you. I put mine under my office desk.


Bike theft is solved the same way car theft is solved. You merely insure the bike.


That works if bike theft is a rare condition that strikes a few unlucky people. But if bike theft is really a chronic problem, insurance can't possibly cost less than buying a new bike every time it's stolen. Otherwise the insurance company would lose money.


Bike theft is a fairly big thing here in Amsterdam but insurance is easy to get and affordable. For more expensive bikes they insist on certain types of locks, etc., and it's possible that simply following those requirements is enough to make insured bikes less of a target than uninsured, on average.


We’re starting to see more e-bikes have GPS tracking built into the frame, at least with higher end models. See Canyon, VanMoof before they collapsed, etc

If that becomes more widespread, e-bike theft will be a lot riskier, and hopefully easier for companies to insure.


The insurance pool isnt just bikes. Renters insurance you are insured in the few hundred grand range if you really tallied up what is covered. A couple hundred dollar bike is hardly a dent in comparison to what the premiums are designed to potentially cover.


Many potential users can also take it the three miles to the corner store or grocery store in place of their SUV, and store it in the same garage.

One thing at a time.


What prevents anyone from using e.g. embedded Apple tags to monitor their bike whereabouts?


Cops often don't do anything even if you bring them tracking information. Example: https://abc7.com/ebike-theft-airtag-aliso-viejo/13091749/

Not everyone is willing to take matters into their own hands, like this person's dad did.


I recently found these tiny Invoxia GPS trackers that use the LORA network to send their whereabouts.

It’s really tiny, like half a stick of gum but lasts weeks between charges. Sends a notification whenever the bike is moved and tracks location when it’s on the move.

Also hidden an Air Tag and added a rear-light that doubles as an alarm when the bike is moved.

Still won’t leave the bike out for the night but feeling a bit better when I’m not around during the day.


By the time the notification goes off, your bike is gone and the police largely do not care, unless it’s a large-scale, thief-to-reseller ring. The only thing that really works is motorcycle locks and alarms, but the effective ones are pricey.


Wouldn't a thief receive a stalking alert if they've got an iPhone?


sop for thieves is to move the bike and leave it for a week then come pick it up if the owner hasn't come to get it.


I thought that organised bike thieves would quickly hand them over to have their parts stripped and then sold separately.

If they store the stolen bikes somewhere, then it'd be easy for police to set up a honeypot bike operation with a tracker inserted into the frame. Lock it up somewhere that's known for thefts and wait for it to be nicked.


High quality locks prevent theft


The lock-picking lawyer on youtube may disagree.


The LPL is a highly-skilled picker; he has access to all the right tools; he practices a lot; he researches every lock before he starts the video.


Unpopular (?) opinion: don't worry about theft. If you are making developer-money then a $1000-$3000 bike is a trivial amount of money. Just use a cafe-lock with a sturdy chain and go about your life. It gets stolen? Buy a new one. Seems silly to be hesitant on a eBike because of a theoretical concern. Finding an environment where you are reasonably safe from getting murdered by a vehicle should be your primary concern. Everything else is just noise.


I make developer money but that's just stupid. Sorry, no other word for it. $1000-3000 is absolutely not a "trivial amount of money" objectively. If I was going to lose that kind of money, I'd at least want to donate it so it could help someone in need.


The author of this post specifically recommends stretching your budget for the best possible e-bike. By definition, if one stretched their budget for a thing it is nontrivial to replace that thing. Also, people are not robots. Even if you can afford to replace a thing there remains a psychological toll from theft.


The average software engineer salary is about $110k in the US and about $55k in the UK. You're just living in some ridiculous bubble.


In France, many cities and regions offer non-negligible subsidies to locals wanting to purchase an e-bikes (I think it also works for regular bikes).

These schemes have boosted the adoption of e-bikes and most cities, big and small, have been playing catch-up to provide bike lanes in and around city centres.

Currently travelling across France along canals and rivers and the network is pretty extensive all over the country. It’s basically the same story all over Europe (and the UK), with varying degrees of coverage.


Here in the UK, I gaze longingly over the Channel at France and their promotion of cycling, especially in Paris.


Cheeky


I'd like to be able to legally RLJ as in Paris: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33773868


Agreed, and it comes to life when you ask anyone guess the most popular electric vehicle. It’s not a tesla, it’s an ebike. The good news is that even without mainstream press e-bikes are significantly outselling electric cars


I love my e-bike (and feel like I have to point that out in threads like this), but while the use cases for them are many, they do not realistically replace ICE cars for most people. They just don't. People with families need cars, and would never forego owning one (or two, or even three) of them just because they have the option of riding electric bikes. That's why electric and hybrid electric cars remain a big deal.


Living in a city in Germany, a lot of families cycle with their children. Typically babies and young children have a seat on the handlebars or in a small trailer on the back, older children either have a tandem-style attachment or their own bike. The various attachments are typically fairly generic, so should work for both regular and electric bikes.

You can also buy (or rent) tricycle-style bikes that have a large space at the front to carry heavier loads - children, pets, or just shopping. I assume there are electric versions of these as well.

In fairness, most of this assumes that the city is reasonably bike accessible, mainly in terms of having all the necessary amenities within a cycle ride from home. If you live in suburbs, this may not be as possible. But I think that says more about the inadequacy of poorly planned cities than that of electric bikes.


Replacing the car completely is unrealistic. Replacing a second car - totally possible. The folks who are buying electric cars are often buying it as a second car anyways since they still need the ICE car for bigger trips. Those folks could probably get by with one ICE car and a couple of e-bikes, which would be cheaper, healthier and more fun.


The other side of this is the potential for car-sharing, reducing the total number of cars around, but allowing people to still make more infrequent journeys by car when that's necessary (or just easier). If your bike is enough for all your regular weekly journeys, you can rent a car for holidays, or visiting friends and family further away.


> People with families need cars

We have kids and since moving somewhere with good cycle infrastructure and convenient city planning I have never missed having a car. It works fine with cargo and individual bikes.


E-Bikes can at least reduce car use significantly. For example I have friends who moved to the suburbs after they had kids and were forced to buy a car. But they still commute to work on an E-Bike most days.


You can ride in families. I can even take your kids on the bike, especially with assistance.


> nothing for getting e-bikes

Where I live in Texas there’s a $800 rebate for e-bikes.


> tax breaks for getting e-cars and nothing for getting e-bikes

Cycle to work schemes let you buy a bike before income tax. I'm not sure how that compares to e-car tax breaks though.

All your employer if they have such a scheme.


The Cycle-to-Work scheme as I remember it is problematic in that you're not buying the bike, but virtually leasing it from your employer for a period of time (1 year?) and you hope that your employer will give the bike to you at the end of that period. The problems are that your employer might not want the extra hassle involved of potentially owning unwanted bikes (my employer has no interest in the scheme) and also the last time that I checked, the tax break was on only the first £1000.

(I'm not looking to buy an e-bike as I'm more of an acoustic cyclist)


> The Cycle-to-Work scheme as I remember it is problematic in that you're not buying the bike, but virtually leasing it from your employer for a period of time (1 year?)

That's just a technicality, I assume to make it comply with other laws about using company money to buy personal items. Payments are deducted from your pre-tax earnings each month, so the saving come from paying less income tax; you can't give the company a wad of cash up-front, or have it all come out of one month's salary.

> you hope that your employer will give the bike to you at the end of that period

They will always give you the bike: Cycle to Work schemes are offered as an employee benefit, the company doesn't want the bike. More important is what happens if you leave the company before that period; e.g. when a previous employer folded I had some some balance remaining to pay (around £500), which was deducted from my redundancy payment.

> The problems are that your employer might not want the extra hassle involved of potentially owning unwanted bikes (my employer has no interest in the scheme)

That's certainly true, and probably the main reason to avoid it (as an employer). Still, it's not much different to having surplus office furniture; at the higher-end, I imagine it's similar to an employee requiring some specialist desk chair, which the company can sell off afterwards.

> he last time that I checked, the tax break was on only the first £1000.

It varies per employer, e.g. I got one up to £1500. More annoying is that it must cover the full price: e.g. you can't pay £100 cash to get a £1600 ebike (although some sellers may fiddle the price tag to get around this!)


> It varies per employer, e.g. I got one up to £1500. More annoying is that it must cover the full price: e.g. you can't pay £100 cash to get a £1600 ebike (although some sellers may fiddle the price tag to get around this!)

The only time I used cycle-to-work was many years ago, so I might have misremembered. However, I've heard that current schemes tend to just give out vouchers that can be used in certain bike shops (e.g. Halfords) on bikes and bike accessories and can be used in part payment for bikes. To be honest, increasing the price limit only really helps people who already committed cyclists, so maybe it's at a fair level.


As of 2019ish the price limit is up to your employer, my employer has a limit of £5k


It's a tax break which is 100% not enforced. You don't even have to actually cycle to work.


I think it would make more sense to reduce or remove VAT from bikes and cycling accessories instead. Far less paperwork and it would immediately open the benefits to everyone rather than being targetted towards the MAMIL (MAWIL?) segment though I consider myself a MAMIL.


I would love to get some e-bikes for my family. However, they're not terribly useful aside from recreation for us. We don't live in an urban or even suburban area.

Bikes are a local thing. If the weather is too hot, or cold, or wet, or snowy, you're out of luck.

Cars appeal nationwide. They'll get you hundreds of miles, comfortably, between remote destinations that aren't served by public transport or airports.

Or, they'll help you get groceries for the whole family.

If you think your area would be better off if tax breaks went to e-bikes, write your city and state governments. Depending on where you live, they're already taking upwards of 10% or more of your income, plus taxing the goods you buy and the land you live on.


They're of course not the solution for every transportation need, especially if you live out in the middle of nowhere, but two things:

> If the weather is too hot, or cold, or wet, or snowy, you're out of luck.

I really don't think the weather is as much of a barrier as it's often made out to be. The Netherlands is famously windy and rainy and Oulu, Finland has snow 5 months out of the year, but nevertheless lots of people cycle in both places.

But yes, if your bike lanes and paths are unmaintained (or worse, have all the street's snow plowed into them) it won't be attractive to cycle in the winter. That's a question of infrastructure and priorities though, it's not the weather alone.

> Or, they'll help you get groceries for the whole family.

I ride an Urban Arrow Family, and it works fine for bringing home lots of groceries.


> I really don't think the weather is as much of a barrier as it's often made out to be.

I'm not making some wild guess, I'm going based on observations of riders in the nearby metro where I once lived. Bike usage plummets twice a year- very few people want to deal with -40 wind chills or have a shower at work after biking in 90F/33c sun.

Hence, my argument that e-bikes tax breaks make more sense at local levels than they do broadly applied.


What metro is it and does the dedicated bike infrastructure get plowed and otherwise well maintained in the winter? Oulu's record low is < -40C and they don't observe much of a decrease in cycling until around -20C.

Hot days aren't an issue for ebikes until you get to extreme temperatures. I've found it to be much better than walking; I'd sweat more waiting for my car to cool down. This is in Sydney, up to 40C and fairly humid.


More than 10cm of snow is a show stopper and that only happens a few times a year, most work from home anyway on those days. Studded tires, poggies for your handle bars. Cheap heated 5volt USB vest and pants wired into your battery pack is an option if inclined.


I live in Seattle, and it's really pretty easy to get a shell for rain and cold. Or shorts for heat.


Seattle has a very temperate climate (relatively speaking) so the last paragraph of my post applies quite well there.


> I really don't think the weather is as much of a barrier as it's often made out to be.

Extremely variable based on local climate. I'll take cycling in a 68F rainstorm or the snow compared to 98F at 76% relative humidity.


For most of the of the country, I don't think heat is that much of a problem. You're not pedaling hard and you have a steady breeze at 15+ mph. I ride electric Citibikes in NYC all summer where it's often in the 90s with high humidity.


I moved rural a decade ago and it's the only reason I miss the city. I turned my ebike into a rope tow for the kids: https://youtu.be/KSyzwj-Faxw


There is no way for me to let a ~2000 euros object of mine unattended and out in the open. I barely leave my current bike like that, and that "only" costs ~300 euros.

More generally, I feel like this is a subject that doesn't get discussed often enough. Yes, most probably the writer of this article can eat the 2000 euros loss if his e-bike gets stolen, but the majority of the population cannot. It also sucks that the majority of said population is also made to feel like it is its fault for not riding this type of bikes instead of driving their SH cars to work and back.


Many people let 10-100s k€ objects daily out in the open, and it doesn’t seem to bother them. Cars are nowadays quite secure, but back in the 80’s, car theft was a real thing, and it did not stop people to use them. And motorbikes have the same problems as bicycles.

Bikes have to be better equipped and infrastructure should be developed, sure. But solutions exists. I know many people who are using electric bikes daily in neighborhoods known for theft of all kinds, and they never got their bike stolen. All they do is carefully lock them to a fixed point with a good U-lock or chain and keep the battery with them if they are really worried. Not much more a hassle than for a motorbike.


The author lives in Japan. The probability of it getting stolen is approximately zero.


Coming from a city where bike theft is severe, the biggest culture shock for me in Japan was seeing how they "lock" their bicycles: loop a flimsy metal ring through the back wheel, and walk away. You could easily still wheel the bike away on its front wheel or toss it into the back of a truck. And yet, it will always still be there when you come back. Amazing.


If they use any lock at all. Even in the heart of tokyo you'll see bikes just propped up against a wall or sitting in a rack with no lock at all.


My house and workshop in rural Canada were like that: no locks. Nothing. Massive quantity of expensive tools in a completely unsecured building.

This made for a bit of a tricky scene during title transfer, how do you pass the keys to the new owners if there are no keys...


This is probably the biggest problem associated wkth e-bikes. Every time you leave it locked outside, you have a nagging feeling it may be the last time you see it. The freedom it brings is a little curtailed by the need to choose a safe spot to park it. Perhaps the best is just to learn to live with the risk.


The first problem you outline has a very simple solution: insurance. Just like cars.

E-bikes can also be leased, to lower the barrier to entry. As an alternative to providing costly downtown parking, many employers in USA subsidize month-to-month e-bike leases with a final cost of like 30 bucks a month.


Bicycle theft insurance costs approximately ten percent the cost of the bicycle, per month.

Which should tell you how good an idea it is to leave one unattended.


I am insuring a $5000 bicycle against theft in San Francisco, and it costs 0.5% the cost of the bike every month. I have no idea where you are getting these insane numbers from


I can insure my €4k electric cargobike for €7/month. I do have to use a €80 lock, but I‘d do that anyway.


That rate is quite good. The best I could find with multiple quotes for an 8k USD ebike was 35 USD/month.


Where are you getting your numbers from? I got my new e-bike insured for 2 years for 10% of the purchase price


Yes, if your bicycle costs $100. But why insure it then?


I just insured my son's new bike ($1500) for only $20/year as a rider on my renter's insurance


Less than 10% per year.


Now that Decathlon are flooding the market with reliable sub 1k ebikes, second hand prices have also lowered and it’s not hard to pick up a reasonable one for 700-800 eur

Having a motor also means saddlebags and hence the possibility of using a motorbike chain


I haven't seen any at the Decathlons in Canada. Can't wait for them to be available here as well.


There are electric folding bikes you can take inside with you.


Berlin is prone to bike theft but a good lock and an insurance (less than 10% of the purchase price per year) helps to manage.


I have one with a detachable battery. Apart from the charging convenience this brings, it also makes the bike way less attractive to steal.


The problem being now you are lugging around a 10lbs battery, I guess if you are just locking up at the office that's ok. But I wouldn't want to lock up on a market street and then lug an extra 10lbs around with me while I shop.


Very true, this can be a nuisance. Most of the times I plop it in my backpack (which I always carry). When at a bar or restaurant this is fine, but walking with it is certainly not ideal.


You can easily insure the bike.


Replacing a catalytic converter costs about $3k


Im in love with my EUC - electric unicycle. The learning curve is steepish only for the first half hour then tops off in about a couple of hours training. Pros: hands are free to carry items, it’s fun to ride, easier than walking after a few days of training. Good for training a good posture. Cons: lack of physical exertion, you’re basically standing on a floating platform with a wheel in the middle. All in all I highly recommend it for running errands or just pure fun.

Another pro is that it’s so small you can easily take it indoors so no risk of them getting stolen.


I'm so torn on my ebike. On one hand, all the good points are true; it's a blast, it opens the city up to you, and its a great way to get around.

All that said, mine has been doing nothing but gathering dust in the basement. Aside from 'pleasure cruise' there is no valid use case for the damned thing, at least in my city. Locking it, especially securing every valuable component on it, is unfeasible and would add ~20 lbs to my pack weight just to lock it. All efforts at creating bike storage lockers have failed, as it became common knowledge that the fragile sheet metal is effectively a lootbox for the taking.

My roadbike on the other hand, cost $100, can be maintained with a small pouch of tools, enjoys effectively infinite range, and is unassuming enough to remain undisturbed at a lock post.

It's a shame, because I'm a big believer in electric micro-mobility vehicles, but the security and usage issues means that the Bird scooters blighting our sidewalks are about the most workable solution we have at the moment.


Anecdotally it seems like these things are causing a crazy amount of head injuries. I get all the tales from the ICU at the dinner table and if I had kids I don't know if I would even let them hang out with another kid if they had an ebike. They seem super cool and I always stop to watch someone zoom buy but I can't help but notice that a lot of the people on ebikes shouldn't be going that fast and aren't built to take a spill.


I don’t think this can be ignored. The bulk of ebike injuries to children are coming from throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed. I’ve seen people crash then who clearly thought they were stopping, but who were holding the throttle. They were riding a motorcycle without motorcycle training. Torque-assist pedal systems are perfectly intuitive to anyone who knows how to ride a regular bike. The power isn’t the problem, it’s the human interface.


Unlike a motorcycle, if you engage the brake on an ebike, the motor is completely disabled in every model I’ve ever seen.

You can hold the throttle wide open, and it won’t matter if any amount of brake is applied.

E-bikes just aren’t that dangerous, especially compared to a full power motor vehicle. I suspect that the bulk of injuries to children on e-bikes are happening in throttle models because those are cheaper models. You don’t buy your kid a $5k mid drive ebike when you can get a $1k rear drive one. Mid drives are physically unable to have throttle, whereas rear drive bikes almost universally have them.

If you are truly interested in saving children from injuries, the best thing we could do is put speed and power limits on cars. Speeding cars maim, kill, and injure several orders of magnitude more children than e-bikes.


Rad brand bikes with hydraulic brakes do not integrate the brake lever with the motor controller. Even on the ones you mention, that integrate the brake and motor controller, it’s still possible to come to a stop, release the brake lever, and then take off unintentionally into cross traffic because you were holding the throttle open the entire time. It’s a bad interface.

Total agreement on the other part but the injuries I’m hearing about have been kids riding their class-2 e-bikes into fixed objects, not crashing with cars.


Huh. I wonder if this was an early model thing. My 2020 Rad has a throttle disconnect on both brakes and the rad parts and instructions for those parts include the brake sensor. The brake handle sensor on mine also operates a brake light. On the mechanical disc brake rad that I have they even go so far as to disable the brake lever adjustment by putting a warning sticker over it to ensure that you don’t adjust it out of range of the limit switch.

https://support.radpowerbikes.com/hc/en-us/articles/44061799...


The newer Rad bikes have hydraulic brakes - the older ones (like my City 3) had cable brakes with the integrated motor cutoff.

I upgraded to hydraulic brakes and wanted to keep the motor cutoff - it was hard to find levers with the integrated switch. I ended up with a kit using XOD brakes, which have the integrated cutoff and are otherwise just fine. I did, however, toss their included brake pads after a bit of riding and replaced them with Tektro P20.11 metal/ceramic pads, and those made a huge difference. That and bleeding the brakes properly.


> you were holding the throttle open the entire time

Imagine the equivalent argument for cars.

Are you, and this argument, the reason so many newer and/or electric vehicles don't have "idle creep"?


> E-bikes just aren’t that dangerous, especially compared to a full power motor vehicle.

Sure, but we don’t let children drive full power motor vehicles (except older teenagers after passing a test, and obtaining liability insurance).


And yet, full power motor vehicles kill thousands of children, while e-bikes kill single digit numbers of children.

If your argument is “somebody think of the children” then you have to consider that any child in the US is far, far, far more likely to be maimed or killed by a car while on their bike, then by their bike while on the bike.


Of course motor vehicles kill more children — there are orders of magnitude more of them. No one is crying "think of the children". We are just discussing whether it is wise for children to use these vehicles, which types are more/less safe for children, etc. Injury comparisons with motor vehicles they cannot legally drive, and which are in much, much greater supply, are simply not relevant. Show me a stat that looks at deaths per million miles driven, and I'm all ears.


My original comment was in response to a suggestion of banning an entire category of already regulated e-bikes purely for the sake of children, hence the "somebody think of the children"

If we are going to ban a category of vehicle for the sake of children based on injuries to children, then the logical vehicle to ban is the one that isn’t already speed and power limited.

My position is that it doesn’t matter if the kid is driving cars or not, if large, multi ton, unlimited speed, unlimited power vehicles (cars) are what is killing kids by the thousands, then why are we suggesting banning something which just isn’t as dangerous in an absolute sense.

If you want to compare motor vehicles to bicycles, then let’s add in trains, planes and ferries. And why miles driven and not time spent traveling. There’s a million ways to slice this, but there is no getting around the fact that if your kid dies in a vehicle accident, it’s almost always going to be a car.

By those measures we should get rid of bikes AND cars and stick to public transportation options.

I already think that e-bikes are over-regulated so I push back hard on reactive arguments like the GP. To ride legally I have to limit myself to 2/3 HP (500 watts) regardless of vehicle and rider weight, go no faster than 32kph, ride on road lanes where the other vehicles travel at 2x-3x my speed, wear PPE, have government approved lighting and reflectors, etc.

These things are already massively regulated in ways that limit their actual utility without necessarily helping safety. We don’t need to ban them outright because parents allow their children to do stupid shit on them, or adults are riding them without the proper skills. We don't suggest banning things like downhill mountain bikes even though children ride them, and they are far more dangerous to use as intended than e-bikes.


> purely for the sake of children.

That's not what I said. I think e-bikes with throttles are too dangerous to be on the market for any buyer. It is a bad, dangerous human-machine interface. There is a reason that the big e-bike brands do not offer them. Yamaha doesn't. Specialized doesn't. Trek doesn't. It is a proper use of consumer safety regulatory powers to set requirements for the controls on a dangerous machine. Without them, you just get a race to the bottom.


Why is an ebike with a throttle any more dangerous than any vehicle with a throttle? Why ban them entirely, instead of just limiting them to adults or licensed drivers.

In most states you can buy a 49cc scooter which is heavier, faster, more powerful, and has identical controls and operate it without any specialized training. Is that also something we should ban?

The human interface for a hand throttle on e-bikes isn’t novel, it’s been around for the better part of a century on most motorcycles and that seems to work just fine.


A scooter has the primary brake on the same hand as the throttle. It is natural to roll off the throttle to reach the brake lever. A scooter has no control lever on the left hand. A bicycle has the primary brake on the left hand, so there is no natural inclination to release the throttle before braking.


Gas powered Vespa style scooters absolutely have a control lever in the left hand. Check out the instruction manual: https://www.vespaforum.com/manuals/Vespa/LX50/LX50%202%20Str...

I’m not talking about little electric folding scooters. I never mentioned those.

49cc scooters have the same controls as throttle equipped e-bikes. One brake on each side, and throttle on the right. The only difference is that rear brake on the scooter is on the left.

The main difference is that the ebike is arguably safer since you can’t apply throttle and brake at the same time due to the cutout.


I don't think your statement about mid drives is correct.

There are some (a small amount) that support throttle. For example: https://bafangusadirect.com/products/bafang-1000w-bbshd-mid-...


True. There are a few models of hardware that allow it with a special front freewheel attachment, but generally speaking mid drive bikes are 1. Vastly More expensive 2. Almost never have a throttle only mode.


Another solution: use an age limit rather than ban. Motorcycles are dangerous but I'm still allowed to use them.


The person I saw crash the ebike was a full grown adult woman. She needed training, not more years of life.


Training doesn't make bikes safe, especially when driving near cars.


It makes them safer, including when driving near cars. Lobby for no training if you want but don’t pretend like it doesn’t help.


Do you have evidence it helps? What course?

Obviously more training can help. For example it would be useful to practice riding in the rain, ice, and wet leaves. But at what point does more training not help? When will you be safe?

Riding a bike next to cars is inherently unsafe. When a car hits you, you are ducked. There's a limit to how vigilant you can be and most riders accept it's a when and not an if.

Note motorcycles have mandatory training but still have 10x the death rate.


Motorcycles do not have mandatory training in Ohio. Just a written test and quick obstacle course. Temp permit is just a written test.


You also need a higher quality, impact rated helmet. I'm sure plenty of folks buy am expensive bike and the cheapest helmet.


This could be a new market. Presently, there's no motorsport rated bike helmet. You can buy a motorcycle helmet, but it's a heavy, cumbersome beast. Or a bike helmet that comes with virtually no useful rating system except for the Virginia Tech rating program.


https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html

Freeride/Enduro/Downhill helmets exist (https://mountainbikeguys.com/downhill-helmet/) but nobody has come up with a rating yet afaik. I own one, and it probably saved my life at least once, but can understand how nobody wants to wear one outside a downhill bike park.


NTA 8776 spec-rated helmets are built to withstand more forces than “regular” bike helmets. IIRC they are required in certain EU countries when riding an S-Pedelec (45 km/h limit pedal assist e-bike)


> The bulk of ebike injuries to children are coming from throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed

Huh, I always thought that virtually everywhere treated these the same as motorbikes (ie you need a license, insurance etc).


I've never heard of any place that required a license for any of the 3 formal electric bike classifications. If you need a motorcycle license that is because the thing you intend to ride is, in fact, a motorcycle.

The bike featured in the article, a BESV PSA1, is considered a "class 1" machine under the most common framework. It has a low-power motor, pedal assist, and no throttle. I am not aware of any place that requires licenses or insurance for such a bike.


Oh, yep, I was talking about bikes with throttles. The bike in the article should be fine basically everywhere.


You want to take away people's e-bikes because...there exists a class of people so poorly coordinated that they presumably can't operate any vehicle safely 100% of the time?


That's a huge strawman. Nobody's saying get rid of them, but if they're as dangerous as motorcycles then they should be regulated similarly.


> throttle-having class 2 bikes and in my view these should simply be outlawed.

One of us is misunderstanding the GGP.


What are "these things"?

Are you talking about something with a throttle?

In the EU (and still the UK), anything with a throttle is treated like a motorcycle - it needs licence plates, tax, insurance and a driving licence. A child would therefore not be able to ride one. You also can't ride them on bike paths or lanes.

A pedelec on the other hand, which is what "ebike" usually refers to, still requires pedalling and can only offer motor assistance up to 15.5 MPH - these can be used wherever bicycles can and by anyone, and have no legal requirements to use.

I understand that the US doesn't really regulate non-standard vehicles, but it does seem to me like a child shouldn't be using something with a throttle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedelec#Legal_status_of_pedele...


Most people seem to complain about the weather or humidity. I find that riding on a busy street, the noxious automobile emissions are the biggest source of displeasure when I'm physically exerting myself (breathing faster just makes me inhale more of the fumes). This is what the e-bike has freed me most of. That and being able to accelerate faster than my muscles can has enabled me to keep up with motor traffic.

That said, most of these points would be moot if the US had dedicated bike lanes separate from automobile traffic.


Had an electric skateboard first, then electric bike, then electric scooter

I really love the electric scooter. It folds into a small space. I had a bad fall on the electric skateboard and traded electric bike for a v light weight race bike.

Author is correct, Electric scooter/bike are some kind of magic cheat code. Take very little electricity, cheap to buy and great for the last mile commute.

Although they do suck when it’s rainy or you need to carry more.

I’m looking forward to someone guiding 1-2 passenger, something with A/C mini electric vehicles.

Tesla selling $50k vehicles seems crazy to me, some with other electric car manufacturers.

I think there’s a great niche for light weight personal vehicles meant for city driving.


True. Biking is the best thing ever (also extremely expensive).

I spent a ridiculous amount on a Gazelle HMB 380+. It’s so much fun to ride. Every component is top quality. No maintenance issues ever.

Recently got a carbon fiber road bike from a Taiwanese factory. Just as fun. Weighs 7.9kg.

I will say when I tested the VanMoof I hated everything about it. The automatic shifter is extremely counterintuitive. The parts suck, a lot.

Shimano hydraulic disc breaks are pretty much set it and forget it type things, so I personally wouldn’t form an opinion of the quality of disc breaks based on the VanMoof.


In the UK, as in Europe and Australia I believe, Ebikes ("pedelecs") are legally limited to assistance only up to 15mph=25kph (it's possible to exceed this downhill, of course). As someone used to riding a regular pedal bike, I would say this is close to but not quite fast enough to feel comfortable among urban traffic. Yet raising the limit to say 20mph could feel arguably unsafely fast on a shared use path through a park. It's a dilemma.


There are also the 45 km/h s-pedelecs in EU, maybe still in the UK too.


There are, although it's a bureaucratic palaver in the UK getting them registered, taxed, insured and legal. And then they, like mopeds, aren't allowed on cycle paths or in cycle lanes... In short, losing much of the freedom that makes bicycles such fun.


I have had three eBikes and I have no doubt they are the future. They are where the internet was in the 90s. My electric mountain bike has been wonderful but all the normal parts like gears, brakes, and tires wear out much faster. One of my local bike shops has allowed me to trade in bikes towards the purchase of even better bikes and that helped shape my experience. If I were going to get a new one today it would most likely be the surly skid loader.


Unpopular opinion:

Ride a regular bike.

In terms of theft, just use a beater bike for commuting.

By getting rid of the 'E' part of the bike, you'll get more exercise and won't have to worry about theft.

For years I rode a beater that I found in the garbage and that I fixed up with some parts I had lying around. Later I upgraded to a singlespeed because derailleurs freeze up in the winter.

It's a trek earl. Seriously bikes are so ridiculously efficient why do we need to add batteries and motors and geegaws to them?


It’s true, but also not true. E-bikes allow a lot of people to cycle who otherwise wouldn’t ride at all.

If you’re reasonably fit, or only use your normal bike on routes you are confident you can ride at your fitness level, then do that with a normal bike.

E-bikes will however free you from doubting you can achieve whatever is in front of you, and that removes a powerful barrier that prevent a lot of people from using bikes at all.

I see lots of elderly people and people of all shapes travelling long distances on e-bikes.

Maybe you don’t get 100% of the benefits of human-powered travel, but if you use the assistance sparingly, you easily get 70-80% of the benefit.

I set le lowest level of assistance of mine to only 15%. Helps me lug the 60lbs of stuff I carry with me on my journeys and I still get a good cardio pushing myself, riding a few hours a day.

I do use a normal bike sometimes, and prefer them for agility and for the pleasure of feeling lighter, but my e-bike is taking me farther and faster (and I’ve lost 15lbs since last year and never felt better in my life than I do now).


Here is why I like my ebike. I'm pushing 50 and out of shape, just hopping on a bike and trying to commute is going to be a disaster. So point one for the ebike, it allows me to ease into a bicycle commute.

Generally on my way to the office I don't want to get all sweaty and have to use the showers, so point two for the ebike. I can use higher pedal assist or lean on the throttle a bit more on the way to work and arrive fresh. On the way home I can turn down/off the pedal assist and ignore the throttle as much as possible to start acclimating myself to a truer bicycle commute.


Try both, seriously.

I rented e-bikes to show relatives around, and they're fantastic if you can't or won't exercise that day. Sometimes it can make the difference between taking the bike or the car.

I see so many people on e-bikes that wouldn't ride a bicycle at all otherwise, and I think "good for them".


I think there were a study that people actually exercised more with ebikes since it allowed them to not get tired so fast, something like how people are doing in gyms: if everything was too heavy, ppl would exercise less compared to when they can choose the difficulty


Some people live in hilly areas. Taking a child to school can go from "nope unless you are top 1% fit people in the world" to "quite the workout". You can turn the motor off on flat terrain.


I feel the same way, but if “e” is what it takes to get more people on bicycles, I’m not gonna argue with them.

Incidentally, I also custom built a “mini velo” similar to the author’s “orange city bomber.” It really is the best bicycle for urban environments, pure fun, no idea why they aren’t more popular in the states.


I've got a big hill on my commute, wasn't fit and it gets up to 40C in the summer here. For me it's ebike or car.


> why do we need to add batteries and motors and geegaws to them?

Hills. Unfit people. Older people. Not getting to work sweaty. To carry children, cargo, or pull a small trailer.


Get a folding e-bike and you can bring it indoors so that you don't have to lock it up outside.


"Find a local bike shop that will let you try out several electric bikes"

where I live no shop is going to let you try one. Not even a regular bike, you want to try? Buy it.

Heck, you normally can't even get a test drive when buying a new car.


I like Craig Mod's writing style. The last product he praised that I've also seen posted here on HN was the Leica Q... I still want it. (Still too expensive to justify)


I'm excitedly waiting for electric velomobiles to become more common. Like podbike.com. It's still an assisted bike (pedelec) according to regulation


God i Love my copenhagen wheel so much, gonna be really devastated when it dies to a point that i cant fix it since Superpedestrian discontinued them


I've been cycling for 50+ years, and bike advocacy predates e-bikes by decades. I'm guilty myself. But I try not to oversell cycling as a universal solution to transportation, because it isn't. I also don't promise people that it will change their lives. Getting them on a bike at all is enough of a hurdle. These days, I advocate e-bikes, though I don't own one myself, because I figure the people who will ride a conventional bike are already doing so.


Anyone living in Brussels know the best way for my wife and I to rent e-bikes for a few days in city center?


I can wax poetic the same about my cars; what's the point ?


Go ahead then, we'll read it if it's poetic enough!




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