I love fancy keyboards. I've had mechanical keyboards when they were rare and expensive. I'm typing this from a fancy keyboard. I now have a cupboard full of them ;) ...
But this, this kind of keyboards, that's masochistic! :-)
I honestly doubt that these make your life easier. Please explain if you have one of these what drew you to this?
100% of the functionality without hand movement. You can have the arrow keys directly under your fingertips at all times, same with numbers and special symbols.
And while I don't like this particular layout in the link I do have a very similar 42-key keyboard and after a couple days of practice it was the most natural and smoothest typing experience I've ever had.
Terrible for any one-handed use (e.g. gaming), though, and it's definitely not everyone's cup of tea.
> > that's masochistic! ... I honestly doubt that these make your life easier.
> 100% of the functionality without hand movement.
Yeah, this is the key point.
These keyboards ultimately trade-off "benefit of reduced hand movement, at the expense of a more complex layout".
A standard keyboard has some bad design flaws that these keyboards fix: the spacebar is impractically large, asymmetric row-stagger is bad. -- On a standard keyboard, you'll end up using your (weak) pinky fingers much more than your (strong) thumb. Ideally, it would be the other way around!
With these keyboards, the thumbs get to reach 2-3 keys each. This allows bringing all the keys on a standard keyboard to within reach of the hand, without having to move the hands.
e.g. Without having to move my hands, my thumbs can press space, esc, tab, backspace, and enter.
With 'tap-hold functionality' (key acts as normal when tapped, acts as a different key when held), I can put Shift/Ctrl/Gui/Alt underneath asdf (and mirrored on the right hand side), so that I can use the modifiers without having to use my pinkies as much. -- And the other complexity is putting all the other keys (like numbers and symbols) on layers.
Overall, I think it's the same power-user trade-off as vim/emacs make: more complex to use, but allows for more concise usage.
Are you using 36 or 42 key? I’m looking to get one soon and was initially leaning to 36 but I’ve heard reports that 42 is the better way to go because the shift buttons can be frustrating as a home row mod on 36 key?
One-shot shift = after tapping, the next key you press is shifted? That does seem useful.
I also liked QMK's "caps word" feature. It's like CapsLock, but only for UNDERSCORED_WORDS. (i.e. the keyboard returns to non-CapsLock after typing a non-word letter, like space/esc/tab/etc.).
Exactly. I also use capsword to capitalize more than a single character (autoshift gets old very quickly otherwise).
I also have one-shot combos for ctrl on the home-row, so to do Ctrl-N for instance I can just tap ring + middle finger on the home-row followed by N. Super convenient. (You can hold one-shot modifiers to act like a regular one too.)
On my Corne, I hold the S key and then hit H to type {
Both on the home row along with my other “surrounds” I use while programming a lot.
Holding S + …
H = {
J = (
K = [
L = <
Obviously there’s a learning curve but it feels much better. Would be silly to lose sections of my career to injured hands from poorly designed keyboards!
What keyboard / layout do you use to get the arrow keys? I have a Ultimate Hacking Keyboard (https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/) and while the arrow keys are easily accessible, they require pressing a modifier.
This is fine and dandy for simple usage, but I happen to do do a bunch of more complicated stuff: ctrl + arrow to go to start/end of line, ctrl + alt for words, all of this + shift for selection. ctrl+shift+mod+arrow gets really tricky to operate for me, I haven't been able to reach a level of proficiency that was anywhere near equivalent to what I had without the modifier key.
I use the miryoku layout for this. There are other options that do this in similar ways, but I’ve found this one to meet all my needs. It was kind of designed around emacs, so modifier keys are well supported.
With customization through Oryx, I've been able to make Ergodox / Moonlander quite amenable to many games that use MKB, especially those that make use of number keys, such as MMOs, by overlaying 1-5+macro with various combinations of double taps, holds, and tap-holds to represent 1-0-= and C-_ variants. So while it takes some customization, you can make such keyboards quite tractable for single-handed modes for individual pieces of software or for general use, with practice.
> I honestly doubt that these make your life easier. Please explain if you have one of these what drew you to this?
Moving to a custom 34 key layout fixed my RSI, which has been an amazing benefit for me.
Of course, the tradeoff is that my layout is far more complex than a standard layout, and it has required a lot of time to tweak it to where it is now.
For me, it's been one of the best decisions of my programming career (together with learning Vim).
Please explain if you have one of these what drew you to this?
Wrist pain posed me to research other keyboards than the Apple Magic Keyboard and Microsoft sculpt. Within a brief amount of time I tried a Kinesis Freestyle Edge RGB, Kyria, and Ferris Sweep. I found the Kyria and Sweep pretty awkward (for different reasons) and caused other pains. Then I got a Kinesis Advantage2 and that really changed things for me, my hand/wrist health improved a lot. I did replace the controller with a KinT to get QMK though.
I am also using a Model 100, since it also allows me to experiment with different switches. But the Advantage2 is my main work keyboard.
I also have an Advantage360, but I don't use it much, because I don't like the switches. Review:
I use a variant that requires only 34 keys. It's amazing how many extra keys you can eliminate when when you dedicate a couple to each thumb. Without extraneous keys that require you to reach away from the home row, is very efficient to use. A mnemonic keyboard layout keeps it intuitive.
I was a mech fan until I tried light contactless switches. I bought a razer huntsman v2. I stopped using any other keyboards after some simple mods and sold my collection of vintage and custom stuff.
Maybe it was because I started getting old, but I started feeling it was a waste of time. Still miss it a bit though, but when I could spend an hour on a huntsman v2 and have it feel better than any of my other linear keyboards I just felt it wasn't worth it.
Tactile is so weird. My current keeb has… I forget what but it’s whatever limited edition Kailh Box linear has the lowest activation for I could find. They’re like 35g switches.
> Please explain if you have one of these what drew you to this?
Debilitating neck spasms, I was willing to try anything. I can reach any key with minimal movement of my hands. Though my keyboard is 50 keys, which I find the closest compromise, by keeping the layout somewhat more compatible to normal keyboards.
Splitting also allows "tenting" the keyboard easily, i.e. having the halves sit at an angle instead of just flat on the desk, which further improves ergonomics.
The history of spltting and tenting go way back. If you look at Microsofts somewhat popular "Natural" and "Sculpt" keyboards, they are semi-split and slightly tented already since late 90s.
> Please explain if you have one of these what drew you to this?
Apart from also having tried a lot of different varieties and figuring out what works for me (it's not always what you think):
Full typing range with no hand-movement. Call me old-fashioned but I'd like to have access to the upsides of soon-ubiquitous immersive VR but keep typing with my fingers and maintain tactile feedback. At the desk or on the train. Not interested in neurolinks, voice or AI-camera-hand-gesture stuff for the foreseeable future. FLOSS purist.
This seems like the best direction if one has a similar inclination and wants to make it a progression.
It's more comfortable, but you have to be willing to learn the layout or develop your own.
I have a bastardKB Charybdis Nano as my daily, and I'm developing my own low profile board too. My next iteration of both will be 34 key only, that's plenty for me.
The Glove80 is probably the most interesting ergo keyboard at the moment, well in my opinion: https://www.moergo.com
I'm paying someone local to desolder and resolder with 15g Kailh Choc Pink switches (aka gChoc). Requires resoldering because of the curved IC boards not accommodating hot switching unfortunately but that's the same w the Kinesis Adantage360
I'm a 15 year kinesis advantage user, I will also get the advantage360 but it's >180 days wait from their partner to solder customer switches and the defaults are way too heavy for me. I'll put ~20-25g switches in from upgradekeyboards.
glove80 downside is bottoming out. upside is mountability (my chair arms, or flanking my LC4 chaise longue, etc.), better tenting ability, maybe portability, and more immediate availability. the choc switches are also interesting because they're more compactly placed. not as much pinky stretch.
I don't have a glove80 yet but will probably get one before figuring out which advantage80 model to get / if the wireless is still crap. I currently use an advantage and a sofle choc with gchocs and mkb poms and magsafe mounting.
I paid to register for Glove80 batch 2, but decided not to follow up. I had several Choc keyboards, but I don't like Choc v1 switches and I don't like Choc spacing. Plus they currently don't have an option to return it if you don't like it, which is not great for a keyboard that costs about 470 Euro after import taxes.
I'm a 15 year kinesis advantage user, I will also get the advantage360 but it's >180 days wait from their partner to solder customer switches and the defaults are way too heavy for me.
That's a smart choice. I have the regular 360 Pro and even after several months I dislike the Gateron Brown switches and the 360 is mostly on the shelf. The Cherry Browns/Reds in the Advantage2 were much better, because they actuate around 2mm, while the Gateron Browns have much deeper actuation (2.5 to 3mm) [1]. As a result, I find the 360 tiring to type on, which is... not good for an ergo keyboard.
The Bluetooth situation got better with a recent ZMK rebase. At least the halves now usually connect immediately when I turn both halves on. No more 1-2 minutes of on/off cycles.
If you want to explore Dvorak or Colemack or some other alternative keyboard style, also switching to something like this at the same time can help train you without losing your QWERTZ skills.
Mech KBs are nice but I am always puzzled why nobody discusses what I think is the biggest unsolved problem with any keyboard: the Mouse !
Let me elaborate — on a laptop computer (esp MacBook ) the nicest thing is that we don’t have to reach for a mouse, and we use the trackpad with either thumb.
With an external keyboard, the ergonomics are great EXCEPT that you have to move your hand off the KB to get to a mouse. For me that kills the ergonomics!
If someone designs a combo mech kb with an easily reachable trackpad below the thumbs, that would be amazing.
I use the UHK. [1] It offers programmable key layers, including a mouse key layer. That combined with apps like Shortcat [2] and I haven’t needed an actual mouse or trackpad in months. That said, UHK offers thumb track pad and track ball modules if you just can’t give it up.
The UHK is moderately annoying if you frequently need to do chorded combinations that involve the escape key, function keys, or cursor control keys. Since you have to access those keys through an modifier key, the chord you need to hit requires adding that key. You can work around it to some extent with macros and key remapping but it still makes me wish I had a third hand.
I like the UHK in terms of build quality and functionality but it would be much, much better if it were a 75% layout instead of a 60% layout.
Just ordered it !
I have to get ready to lose $100 on shipping costs back and forth to the US in case I have to return in 2 weeks.
I am returning keychron S1 I recently ordered from Amazon.
I’ve the years every now and then I try out mech kbs to ease my RSI (shoulder) issues and nothing stuck and I kept going back to MacBook just because of the convenience of the trackpad between the fingers.
If you browse Reddit's /r/olkb subreddit regularly you'll occasionally see people integrating touchpads, joysticks, and trackballs into their keyboards (usually the split variety like the one pictured).
Integrating pointer devices into keyboards is definitely a thing for ergo community. Even this design has trackball support!
> It supports a per key RGB matrix, encoders, OLED displays, haptic feedback, speakers, a Pixart Paw3204 trackball, the SplitKB tenting puck and four different layouts, through break off parts.
I have been using Corne since last year and want to switch to Dilemma - it really seems like a great option. I wonder if anyone has found any drawbacks against it?
I'm torn on the Dilemma being my next because I currently still use my pinkys for double quote and quote. The 40 key layout here was what I was considering designing for myself but I'm not a fan of the inner-index offset. The Dilemma is a sweet design so I might just tweak it instead of starting from scratch, but starting from scratch would be more fun.
If you like it you like it. I used a trackball with a 75% (the best %) and an external numpad that I put the left of my kB. I use my mouse very little, so it wasn't much of a context switch.
There was also a laptop with this mouse "thing" that pulled out of the right side. Not Apple, I can't remember who made it.
Keyboards with integrated mice, trackballs and touchpads have been done a million times. You can buy them today in many forms (switch to image search to see the options):
That said, trackpads are horrible things. They exist because they are massively cheaper to integrate into laptops than trackballs or having to ship something like a docking mouse, etc. They also reduce mechanical complexity and likely less issues on many other fronts.
In other words, trackpads are a huge win for manufacturers and a massive UI/UX loss for users.
Sure, for occasional browsing or low intensity tasks, no problem. Anything works. The little pointing gizmo on my Lenovo is there for when I have no other option. However, for anything that requires some level of complexity or performance on quickly learns trackpads just don't work. For me this means CAD, coding, applications like Excel, graphics work, etc. I use a thumb-operated trackball, have been doing so for decades. If I was forced to use a trackpad every day and had no other choice I would take a sledge hammer to the computer...that's no way to live.
I would imagine gamers have a similar opinion. I used to play games like Doom and Duke Nukem bak in the day. My performance using a trackball, when compared to others using mice of the era was just impossible to beat.
I've tried a few keyboards like this. I can't seem to find anything better than the Kinesis Advantage. There is something about the placement of the keys that makes typing low effort.
I'd like to try some other options with key wells. Like the glove 80.
I have a kinesis advantage (first version), along with several ergodox variants and other odd split keyboards. I still think it's the best keyboard I have, with the biggest complaint being the crappy esc (and fn keys).
Aside from the key well, the integrated palm rest is a big factor of how the keyboard works. The ergodox variants all require to raise your hands to operate, or use a dumb palm rest. But the position of a normal palm rest doesn't work with the shape of these keyboards.
I also don't get why so many try to reach for the small form factor, literally shaving 1-2 cm and loosing a ton of keys and then spend time adding layers later with all the complexity that this entails. This is also something I'm not fond of the advantage 360 -- loosing the fn row (I would likely have upgraded otherwise).
I wasn't aware of the glove 80 - that's a very nice option. Thanks for mentioning this. Just looking at this (without trying), I instinctively prefer the thumb cluster of the kinesis due to the double-length keys: these allow to move your hands vertically and still allow the thumb to hit the key without flexing). Considering space/bk/enter is placed there, this is not a small point.
However, this might just be bias after years of kinesis use.
I also paid a ton between shipping & customs (imported as well).
I don't regret it though. If there was a reasonable EU reseller I would actually have bought a second.
I have been using ergodox keyboards for a long while, I did not like the kinesis advantage much (not split). The glove 80 looks interesting and I would try it were it not for the fact that switches are soldered.
I have an ergodox as well. I got one of the first infinity versions. There were a few issues with the USB connector but epoxy seems to have fixed that up.
I find that I like it but not as much as the advantage. It's harder to use. One of the problems is that I picked too stiff of a key type (MX clear). The other is that the keys are just a little further out of reach.
I like that I can customize it but I find that I don't use many of the features such as layers. I really don't like that I have to use layers to access the F keys. I use F2 all the time to rename things, and F5 to refresh webpages. One extra modifier key is not much but it seems to make the experience much worse for me.
I like that it's split so I can set it to my wider than normal shoulders but I don't like that it keeps moving. That seems to throw off my muscle memory of where the keys are. I'm in the process of making a fixed mount to correct for that.
I 3D printed the default case in the repo - I'm yet to start poking around with customising the parameters and OpenSCAD but eventually I'd like to be able to make the case to fit my hands perfectly (as it stands the default thumb cluster on the 5x6 keyboard is a bit large for me).
Yes, but for it to function you have to solder them. I meant hot-swappable switches. On the ergodox, I have kept the same base and I just keep on replacing the switches as needed.
> KLOR is a (open-source) 36-42 key column-staggered split keyboard. It supports a per key RGB matrix, encoders, OLED displays, haptic feedback, speakers, a Pixart Paw3204 trackball, the SplitKB tenting puck and four different layouts, through break off parts.
Just to give my humble experience, having bought a VIA-compatible keyboard was the opportunity to reorganize keys and test which options make sense for me.
I am still in my early phase, but (for example) I discovered that a 60% keyboard would suit my needs just fine (with CapsLock as my favorite choice as a mapping switcher).
I wonder how to check if an even more compact layout could work for me.
Does that mean additional mapping switching keys? [i wonder how to handle a Ctrl-Alt-Shift-F9, then ;) ]
Check out the Miryoku layout (https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku). I use a modified version. For me, that keypress is inner-right-thumb, right index, middle, and pink pressing homerow keys, and the key above my left index.
I'm a big fan of leveraging the FN key on 60% and lower layouts. I handle all of the switching between layers with FN+W,A,S,D. So four different layouts basically. Plus a wild amount of macros. But all in all I basically just am agreeing here, VIA/QMK enabled keyboards are the way to go.
I built a TOTEM[1] (same creator) and it looks stunning. Was a breeze to get manufactured (both PCB and resin printer case from jlcpcb, in my case) and assemble too!
The build guide is very informative and quirky, it has everything from tips in how to solder smd diodes to "use a sharpie to paint the PCB sides black so it looks nicer", way better than some expensive kits I've bought in the last few years!
Geist's boards are amazing. I own both KLOR and TOTEM but still want to build a KLOTZ and use it as travel keyboard.
Custom keyboard rabbit hole is so deep
It's interesting to see all these highly unusual input devices, but as someone who can already type all day at 150wpm on a regular QWERTY board, I don't quite understand how much better something like this can make you type.
There was a poll yesterday on Reddit about ergonomic keyboards, about half of the respondents had RSI as answer, and only ~5% responded typing speed: https://www.reddit.com/poll/13mnq7q
Speed is only one aspect, comfort is the main benefit for me. The biggest change in comfort I found going from row stagger to ortholinear, then a small bump again going column stagger and low profile
These keyboards are “interesting” to look at, but I find that the more ergonomic they are, the more they reinforce the idea that you’re a human, who needs human shaped things, and a human is all you’ll ever be.
As such, I do not like using them. In fact, my favorite keyboards are Ortholinear, where keys are arranged in a straight grid of rows and columns with no deviation, and I especially enjoy combining this aesthetic with blank keys. There is no better looking keyboard than this, it appeals to an intellectual’s sensibilities, and when you master the use of one, you feel you have ascended beyond the status of mere human, and into something more. A union between man and machine.
Now that is how a keyboard should make you feel: ergonomics for the soul.
I have plenty of 3d printed keycaps.Also tried to design some but after discovering some really nice keycap profiles like DES,Chicago Sterno,PBS just stopped trying to design.
When it comes to printing , I use JLCPCB 3d printing services which just gives me really nice resin keycaps also 3d printed mfj(nylon) keycaps are nice.
good thing is, you can program the layout yourself. you can even put the parentheses in homerow and access it by holding one of the thumb keys and tap a key in homerow.
Most enthusiast split keebs run on QMK or ZMK which allow you to customize the layout as you'd like including features such as layers, one-shot mods (press shift, next key you press is shift+key), macros, and key combos (press jk to emulate shift like some people do in vim).
But this, this kind of keyboards, that's masochistic! :-)
I honestly doubt that these make your life easier. Please explain if you have one of these what drew you to this?