Hacker Newsnew | comments | ask | jobs | submitlogin
illumen 801 days ago | link | parent

I make development software for companies like Google. Currently their biggest demand is to be able to use their white board instead of the keyboard+IDE for input. We call it an IDW, Integrated Development Whiteboard.

Also, they need tools to help them develop different sorting algorithms and link lists. Plus they are having trouble with binary trees, but link lists and bubble sorts are their number 1 priority!

Instead of more advanced performance modeling, they want to use this non-sciency thing called Big O notation. Once they write a Big O notation on the IDW(Integrated Development Whiteboard) they expect it to go that fast. If it doesn't go that fast... they just chuck more servers at it (we supply their servers too, so Big O makes us happy).

They also want us to provide them with flannel shirts and dr martins for uniforms. They say that 90s clothes help them with their interviewing techniques, because it helps them remember how interviews were done in the day; when they were edgy.



alexgartrell 801 days ago | link

The forty yard dash provides one of the most important signals for football recruiting. Essentially, it's a measurement of the time from when the athlete takes his hands off of the start line to when he crosses the finish line. Most commonly, it is run in cleats on grass with no pads, and certainly no players trying to prevent you from reaching the goal line. In addition to that, the best technique for running a forty, literally falling forward to build momentum before lifting your hand off the ground, is actually illegal for offensive players (and pretty pointless for defensive ones).

So why is this completely unrelated activity so important for measuring football players? Because it takes ten seconds to measure, and a guy who can run a 4.2 forty can almost always play pretty damn well.

Tech interviews today are a low cost way of getting a rough idea of ability to code. Judging from Google's output, it's pretty damn effective for them.

-----

rjsen 801 days ago | link

Except that the 40 really isn't a very good measure - if it were, the Oakland Raiders would be winning the Superbowl every year instead of missing the playoffs. Of the 15 fastest players in the last 12 years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40-yard_dash), only 2 are stars, and most are bench guys or out of the league. The 40 has its uses, but it needs to be taken as one fairly small factor in evaluating a player, and even then it's only really relevant for certain positions.

Similarly, coding algorithms on whiteboards doesn't tell you much other than how good the candidate is at coding algorithms on whiteboards. Given that the vast majority of their revenue comes from either search (which was built over a decade ago) or companies they've acquired, and the numerous well-hyped failures (Buzz, Wave, +, etc.), I don't think it's actually working all that well for Google either.

-----

alexgartrell 801 days ago | link

I'm not saying it's a perfect indicator, I'm saying it's a cheap and easy indicator. Certainly there are outliers in every direction, but a running back who runs a 5.0 forty just isn't going to be very good (unless he's like 400 pounds).

So is it more likely that Google is filled with idiots that can't see the err of their ways, or that, across tens of thousands of individual hires, this is the most cost effective and produces the best results (minimizing false positives) on average.

College-admissions style interviewing just doesn't make sense for a company like Google.

FWIW, there are a couple edge cases (like javascript/frontend engineers) which my company (Facebook) has completely separate hiring tracks for. It works for us, but I'm sure Google has its own reasons for not doing that.

-----

nostrademons 801 days ago | link

Google has separate tracks for FE SWEs as well. It's just that you also need a basic proficiency with C++/Java and algorithms to be a Google FE SWE, while I'm not sure that Facebook requires that? (Perhaps because Facebook's frontends are written in PHP instead of C++/Java.)

-----

rjsen 801 days ago | link

Actually, I'd say that whiteboard interviews are for Google are an arbitrary way of selecting from already qualified candidates, just as 40 times might aid a team in choosing between 2 otherwise similar players.

The players invited to the combine are the ones teams are considering drafting anyway; all the 40 times do is move players up or down the list by generally small amounts. The point isn't that 40 times are useless, it's that they provide very little additional information about a player. Champ Bailey was going to be a high draft pick no matter what he did at the combine, and everyone already knew that Trindon Holliday was fast but probably too small to succeed in the NFL.

Likewise, someone with a 3.9 from MIT or a bunch of good open source work who's coming for an in-person interview is already qualified, and the whiteboard doesn't tell you anything new. I'd guess Google sticks with them for the same reasons teams tout 40 times - it's good marketing both internally (making decisions seem less arbitrary) and externally (look how tough our interviews are is a more socially acceptable way of saying look how smart we are), and it allows people to deflect blame if a hire doesn't work out. Judging by the number of posts about Google interviews I see here and elsewhere, the marketing is certainly successful.

-----

nostrademons 801 days ago | link

The vast majority of interviews do not result in a hire. (Some of my coworkers have reported giving 20 in a row without a single offer.)

Also, I think your view of the interview pool is somewhat skewed. Most of the candidates I see do not have 3.9s from MIT (BTW, I believe MIT has a 5-point GPA, so it really would be 4.9), and a lot didn't go to Ivy-League universities.

-----

nostrademons 801 days ago | link

FWIW, Search is continually being rewritten, and the bulk of the current codebase was written in the past 2 years or so.

I'm kinda curious what it'd look like if you took the 2002 version of Google and used it on today's Internet. My guess is it would feel incredibly dated and virtually useless because of spam. We have a couple archived UX studies that were done with the old (pre-2010) UI; I remember that when we launched everybody said "Eww, I hate the new UI. Why change a good thing, Google?" and now when they look at the old UI they're like "Omigod, I can't believe I ever managed to look at that. It's like something straight out of 1998."

-----

peripitea 801 days ago | link

Looking at that list... I wouldn't count the three from 2010/2011 because it's too early to tell, so that leaves 12 players. Of those 12, I would say there are 2 superstars (Bailey, Johnson), 2 great players (Rodgers-Cromartie, Routt), a #1 wideout and potential emerging star (Heyward-Bey), and 3 players with promising early careers that were derailed by injury/death (Mathis, Washington, Williams).

That's a pretty fantastic hit rate, especially given how rare it is for any draft pick to work out. Similarly, if Google tries a bunch of projects of which only 10% are expected to work, but 20% of them end up working, then they still did a great job even though 80% of their projects are failures.

-----

fingerprinter 801 days ago | link

This thinking is exactly what Moneyball was all about in Baseball. Football looking at the wrong things.

For instance, 225# reps, vertical leap, reach, etc (all NFL combine measurements). Great, you are measuring and ranking, but are you doing anything meaningful? Are you actually looking at the right things? Probably not.

If they were, Wes Welker, Tom Brady, Victor Cruz (all in the past superbowl) would have been first round picks, probably top 10. Not undrafted, or late round picks. And JeMarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf wouldn't have been drafted #1 and #2 overall (all the physical tools but not the mental - flame outs).

The point is that we as people tend to think we know what to measure and track, but we likely don't. Frankly, we are probably making it up on the fly and we convince ourselves and others that these are good measures, and until someone figures out the next best thing, they actually are. But, as I said, they are probably not the best, or maybe even good, in the infinite wisdom sense.

But, think about it this way. Both football and programming have ways we can actually see if someone can do what they say that can do: literally, look at the film. Look at game day film on a player. Look at github or other places for programmers. And, just like with football players, give them REAL scenarios that test their ability to think through a problem, in real time. Do the same with a programmer. Put these two together and you get rid of the people who can't think (Russell and Leaf) and you get rid of the "physical specimens" that can't play (Most any Oakland WR drafted under Davis).

I personally think this is a much better way that weeds out the most people. Refine your questions and technique and you can spot the people who can and can't perform pretty quickly. If you are unsure, give them a simulated game (programming problem at home) to see what they can do.

-----

jumby 801 days ago | link

Really, then why aren't all 100meter dashers excellent football players?

-----

blacksmythe 801 days ago | link

The 100meter is run in a straight line.

The 40yard is a better metric of the ability to change directions and accelerate.

-----

andylei 801 days ago | link

because football coaches look at things besides your 40m dash. but that doesn't mean looking at your 40m dash isn't a useful thing to look at.

-----

jacques_chester 801 days ago | link

My understanding of gridiron is that it is rare to run that far.

-----

jdlegg 801 days ago | link

This is almost the definition of false analogy.

-----

ender7 801 days ago | link

Part of the point of the whiteboard is that it's not a real development environment. Google interviews are usually designed to test how you think, not how well you can place a semicolon. The point is, it's okay if you miss a brace or forget the name of a method. It also allows you to mix diagrams and psuedo-code in with 'real' code in an easy way. (also, I can't think of a better environment to give them. You can't provide everyone with their favorite IDE with all the code hints, so in the end it's just going to be a dumb text editor anyway)

Working on a whiteboard is definitely a skill, but one that's worth developing if you plan to work with others on a complex project.

That said, they really shouldn't have been giving this guy standard CS questions. Sure, you want to make sure that he understands why writing his string concatenation loop the wrong way will result in O(n^2) behavior, but he was interviewing for a front-end position.

-----

nostrademons 801 days ago | link

The front-end interviews are a mix of front-end focused interviewers and gen-eng interviewers (usually 3 & 2, respectively). That's because the frontend-SWE position involves writing JS/HTML/CSS to run in a browser, but it also involves writing the server code that generates that JS/HTML/CSS (same reason that Java or C++ is part of the job req). We care very much about efficiency when your code runs on tens of thousands of servers.

There are also a bunch of algorithmic questions that come up in the browser as well, because unlike a lot of sites, Google actually cares about latency. You often can't use a library function if it involves pulling in a 300K library, nor can you write an O(n^2) algorithm if it involves locking up the browser.

-----

jumby 801 days ago | link

Then ask about browser caching, expires headers, js/css minimization, yslow (or page speed :/), CDNs, and generic front end stuff

-----

nostrademons 801 days ago | link

A non-trivial percentage of visitors hit Google Search with an empty cache and no cookies. I know the numbers but aren't sure I can share them, but it's enough that relying on caching to solve latency woes doesn't work.

-----

nl 801 days ago | link

In 2007 Yahoo shows that ~40-60% of users hit their pages with an empty cache[1].

Newer numbers would be good :)

[1] http://www.yuiblog.com/blog/2007/01/04/performance-research-...

-----

jumby 800 days ago | link

That's fine, but are you asking your frontend devs to solve Google's latency woes as a normal part of their interview?

-----

jojopotato 801 days ago | link

From my experience, they do ask those questions.

-----

kamaal 801 days ago | link

Strange, These days very little to zero development happens without IDEs. I don't really know why anybody should expect to test somebody's skills without an IDE.

That's because today a term called 'Productivity' has become massively more important than any thing else. Its something like this, Lets say there is an archer. He can shoot the red dot 9/10 of times with his bow and arrow. You take away the bow and arrow and give him stones and ask him to match the same 9/10 hits on the red dot. Guess what, he won't be able to, May be with time he can. But for the time being he can't.

What does this say? Does this mean he is a bad archer? No. Tools and their usage is part of the trade.

No skill can be tested in Isolation.

-----

minikomi 801 days ago | link

I heard they almost have their spam filter down ... They have discovered every third mail sent is some form of cola advertising, and every fifth mail sent is empty words used to drum up hype.. Can no-one think of a way to mark those mails?

-----




Lists | RSS | Bookmarklet | Guidelines | FAQ | DMCA | News News | Feature Requests | Bugs | Y Combinator | Apply | Library

Search: