My first thought when I saw the headline was "oh cool a start-up that disrupts dishwashing, I wonder what fancy overpowered tech they throw at the problem".
And then it turns out to be a Miele, one of the common go-to brands for household appliances in Germany.
Fun fact: Miele is actually one of the few companies that has technicians that carry a ton of spare parts in their vans, so when you got an issue you just call a number, get an appointment, and then somebody comes by your house and will probably get everything working again in an hour or two. They also carry custom made suitcases with build-in Thinkpads for diagnostics and a tiny desk for writing.
The repair comment is interesting. It seems in the US if you have a warranty claim for an appliance they contract with some generic repairman who has to order parts.
But it is this combination of reliability and quality service that make the dishwasher worth paying for. It's how appliances used to be. You buy one, and it lasts for 20 years, and maybe you need it to be serviced a few times.
We bought a Miele dishwasher. We've been able to clear clogs ourselves following instructions. It actually cleans the dishes properly, and the door pops open to allow drying when the cycle completes.
Stuff made in China starts going on the fritz. If you get the expensive brands made in China, it means they last one or two years instead of 3 to 6 months. We have a higher-end American brand washing machine (not Miele). It's control panel is starting get squirrely. The machine is fine, but the electronics are starting to fail, and the repair cost for replacement boards is a significant percentage of the cost of the machine. Enough that we'll probably go with Miele when the board fails altogether.
If Miele makes a healthy margin, that's good in my book, because they make products that are worth the money. I'm tired of buying cheap disposable crap. I don't want to buy a toaster every year because they burn out every year. I refuse to go through the circus of buying a dishwasher or washer/drier every 5 years anymore.
We actively search for products that last, and that have good service. We actively avoid, as far as is possible, products made in China, because the quality, and verification of quality is no longer suitable. Buying stuff made in mainland China, even with an American or European brand-name means that it is cheap in the very short term, and costly in both dollars and time in the long run.
If a company can make a profit and not engage in the outsourcing idiocy we've seen in American brands, than they'll get my money, even at a premium.
Speaking of toasters, recently came across someone complaining they had to keep buying new ones. It dawned on me, look at what a place like Waffle House uses. Thus, I'd recommend a Waring toaster. No way a corp like Waffle House is gonna pay hundreds of dollars for toasters that need replacement every few weeks. To be fair, Waffle House is using WCT800 models, I'm not sure the WCT702 model is built to the same standard. It does give me some comfort to see they only make 6 models, and seem to mostly focus on commercial use.
It may be worse that even (e.g. it has been for us). We have a Whirlpool/MayTag washer, and they pick who services it, and they chose for us a 1.8/5 star budget company that is completely awful and incapable of repairing things. But Whirlpool/MayTag refuses to do anything except keep sending them to us, and we have to schedule through them, which is also a huge nightmare. Do not recommend!
The upside of Whirlpool/Maytag products beyond warranty is the availability of parts and the willingness of third-party repairmen to work on them.
Although dishwashers and clothes washers are a bit of an apples to oranges comparison, we have a LG washing machine and no one wants to work on it because of the scarcity of parts and poor likelihood of successfully repairing the issue. They recommended Whirlpool/Maytag for those reasons so while it might not be a great warranty and hassle to get warranty work done, they still have some major points for consideration.
For Miele it’s mostly a factor of a strong (and pricey) brand, and one which they have maintained where others basically sold out for short term revenue.
Ours is more like the upper-end of non-fancy (it's some Bosch, but not one of the higher-end ones, more mid-range) but damned if the shallow plastic-mesh tray it has at the top isn't something I can't live without now. So perfect for long utensils that're awkward to put anywhere else in the dishwasher (or risk becoming dislodged and blocking one of the spinning water thingies, if you put them elsewhere). It also just barely fits measuring cups, and it's easier to secure them in there than it is to put them on the main trays.
It's also one of the many, many nice things on kitchen appliances that could totally be standard on every model if the ones without were just like $10 more expensive, but there's not even an option like that—you have to go move up way more than that in price to find them. Market segmentation in kitchen appliances is such a pain. Like if you just want some of the QOL-improving (but cheap to add) things without bumping up into another whole price bracket for a bunch of shit (or, often, just also-cheap styling options that they're charging a huge premium for) you don't want—you're shit out of luck, no such option, there's no slightly-more-expensive-than-the-cheapest-but-also-pleasantly-equipped model.
We really don't have competition anymore. The auto industry is another example of of this. There are only a few players and they all kind of meetup like ok leather only costs us an extra $200 but we're going to put it as part of a package with a bunch of other shit no one cares about and sell it as a 6k add on.
Dishwashers are absolutely an appliance to splurge on.
The difference between bottom-tier, adequate-tier and high-end is basically a few hundred bucks.
Bottom-tier are loud, don't actually clean dishes well, are ugly, and fail early.
Top-tier are near-silent, clean dishes without a pre-rinse, have all sorts of intelligent drawers & racks to fit all your needs, and look great.
Some of them even have fancy features like popping the door open when done so the steam vents, etc.
Miele or Bosch seem to be the way to go, by far.
I am firmly a non-believer in luxury appliances and laugh at what people spend on fridges & ranges for vanity, but dishwashers are an absolute utilitarian efficient splurge.
I love my Bosch 500 series but the best feature on it, by FAR, is the simplest.
Bosch calls it AquaStop, it's a plastic tray underneath the entire mechanical assembly. If there is a leak in the system water will accumulate here first, saving your floors. A simple float switch puts the system into always-drain mode to try and purge the rest of the water as fast as it can.
That little thing alone saved my wood floors from being ruined on an overnight inlet valve leak. And the valve was a $25 part from Amazon, a 30 minute DIY fix. That's some great engineering.
I have a cheap (in every sense) dishwasher with no fancy features that's nearly silent. Whether I put in relatively clean plates or filthy messy pots, it cleans them perfectly.
Prior to that I owned a very expensive dishwasher and it was awful. Within the 90 day return window it broke twice. A week before that window closed I returned it and bought the one I have now for a third of the price.
Someone I work with has a huge family. Something like eight or more kids. If I need recommendations on appliances I go to him because he's basically running dishwashers and laundry machines 12 hours a day. His advice to me for dishwashers: buy the cheapest one you can find. When it breaks, fixing it yourself usually costs under $100, and if it doesn't, get the same model and keep the functional parts of the old one (motors, pumps, control boards, inner rack parts, etc) as spares.
It's been 5 years and I've yet to have any issues with the cheap no-frills one.
The cheap one is a Frigidaire. Not sure of the exact model since I'm not currently near it, but I'm pretty certain it's equivalent to their FDPC4221AS model, if not that exact model. The price was under $400.
The expensive one that broke twice within 90 days was a KitchenAid that cost a bit less than $2000. I don't recall the model number. It had a stainless steel tub, three racks, interior LED lighting, fans to blow heated air to dry dishes, and all sorts of other fancy features, that, in hindsight, don't help clean dishes in the slightest.
The first break: half way through a wash cycle I smelled burning plastic in the kitchen. It seemed like it was strongest near the dishwasher, so I opened it up. As I did, the sound of the water and pumps stopped, allowing me to hear the sound of what would ultimately be the source of the smell: the fan that was meant to blow heated air during the drying cycle was grinding away at full speed and rubbing against its housing causing it to melt. I could only guess as to why it malfunctioned that way - it shouldn't have even been running until all of the wash cycles had completed. It got replaced a few days later with the same model.
The second break: I loaded it up, started the machine, and went to bed. When I woke up in the morning my entire kitchen was flooded with dirty dish water. This time, the plastic housing for the main pump had literally split in half. Not only did that allow water to just flow right onto my floor, but caused it to continue flooding my floor as it tried to fill the tub to the correct level. Since most of it was going on the floor, the float switch that signals when the tub is full never cut off the pump. Eventually I think the control board decided that was a problem and stopped the pump.
In hindsight, there was really no justification for buying the fancy one in the first place. Aside from all "amazing" features, the design and parts used to accomplish the actual cleaning are almost identical in every way. I felt like a real idiot for falling for the marketing.
Never again.
To be fair, I've little experience with Miele or Bosch dishwashers. I lived in England for about a year over 15 years ago and had a Miele there. I had to be diligent about keeping it clean, otherwise I'd end up with dishes that were even more disgusting than when I put them in, as it would very effectively deposit the contents of an uncleaned filter onto every surface before baking it to an enamel-like finish. Given how much people seem to love their Miele dishwashers I suspect my experience with them wasn't typical.
I wouldn't splurge on a luxury fridge either but I wish I understood why there aren't any good ones. I should be able to install the compressor and the rest of it outside. Coils on the bottom of a refrigerator is undoubtedly the stupidest architecture. And having to listen to the compressor isn't great either.
there are no "good ones" because "luxury" appliances are basically the same as the cheap ones with a nicer finish or luxury brand name
ask ANY appliance repair person...they would howl at the comments here
they've told me that people who think Bosch or Miele are "good" are just remembering what they were like twenty years ago and today they are just as likely to fail as Kenmore
ask ANY appliance repair person, don't listen to HN on topics like this
We recently bought a high-end "duel fuel" range. It isn't for vanity, it's for utility and reliability.
6 gas burners including two special-function power-boilers (useful!), and two separate electric ovens. That means we can bake both the protein and the vegetable dish at the same time, while finishing other parts of the meal on the range (like rice or sauce) and cut down on the overall cooking time.
Instead of my wife or I spending an hour to 90 minutes of serial cooking, we can parallelize the cook time and spend 30 to 45 minutes. Worth it, especially since we're eating out less than we ever have, one of the positive changes to come out of the pandemic.
appliances are a commodity that represent a minor fraction of the sale price
no one plonks down $2 million dollars on a home to get $30k worth of appliances
no one moves into a poor school district to buy a Viking range
you can swap out all the appliances in a home in a few days
and the idea that these are an "investment"?? how many homes have you owned? no one is making a profit off of installing a dishwasher
and to edit a response...you just flipped properties in a seller's market, you would have made a profit regardless. wait until it is truly a buyer's market...you won't get a premium off easily-done renovations like swapping appliances
I've owned and sold several homes that I've renovated and they always fetch a premium.
Recently I sold an apartment in a complex with 1200 units - so comps are widely available. The sale happened in a matter of hours with 6 way-over-ask offers, half of which were all cash. The closing price continues to be a high water mark for this unit / line in the complex.
There were other units on the market at the same time as us where the sale took weeks if not months and sold for drastically less. Some of them were recently renovated, but had builder grade finishes.
High end kitchen / bathroom renovations (aka appliances) are most certainly a major factor.
Absolutely not. They're built into the house. Cabinets are literally constructed around them to fit seamlessly.
I know it's common in certain other countries to take your appliances with you, even for rentals. It makes moving so much harder, I've never understood it.
To me, a home not coming with a refrigerator or washing machine makes as much sense as it not coming with a toilet or shower.
those cabinets are all built to standard dimensions though
your "builtin" fridge isn't really builtin, it just has cabinetry (plywood + veneer) on both side and the top in a standard dimension...its not like the home was built around the fridge
in most homes even the "builtin" cabinetry work is cheap garbage that can be replaced trivially, particularly in the case of white-finish just in most homes now
> You don't take your appliances with you when you move?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Dishwashers are probably the most-likely to stay with the house, followed by the range. Fridge may be included with the house, or specified as negotiable, but often isn't—probably the most-likely one for the seller to keep. Some higher-end models of various appliances (including refrigerators) may be built-in rather than freestanding, and/or to be styled to match the cabinets, and in those cases they almost always stay. Clothes washer and dryer are usually taken.
IME appliances are more likely to stay the higher the cost of the house (they're more likely to be kinda tied to the house, style-wise or physically; the owner is more likely to consider them not worth moving).
Most of the time, no. Probably because as "standard" as sizes of appliances are- they also are not.
So the last thing you want a potential buyer worrying about is (1) looking at an empty appliance slot or (2) knowing the appliances are going and worrying if they can find something to perfectly fit in the same spot.
I mean also, because appliances usually stay.. it's kind of a problem for no one. Often times someone is selling a house to build a new one, they don't want to bring old appliances in a new build. Or if you are buying a pre-existing house, that will generally have the appliances etc.
Also, appliances have been subject to the same supersizing effect as many other things in the US, especially refrigerators. A kitchen built or last remodeled prior to the mid-2000s or so is likely going to have trouble finding a fridge that will fit properly because they've gotten so much larger.
Appliances wear out and need replaced and lots of property owners don’t regularly remodel, so there is a pretty big market for, and ready supply of, things like refrigerators that fit older houses. In a brick-and-mortar showroom, they won't be in the most prominent locations, but they also will often be fairly well priced for what they are because its a large and price-sensitive market segment.
> You don't take your appliances with you when you move?
Very often, they do take some, but large appliances are expensive to move making it a convenient time to trade up, and many homebuyers are first time homebuyers moving out of places where they don’t own the appliances (whether young people moving out from their parents or ex-renters moving from a place where the landlord owns some or all of the appliances), so appliances can be a big boon to selling a house.
Here in Germany people take their entire kitchen when they move - even from rentals. It's normal to rent an apartment with no kitchen (no cabinets, no appliances, literally an empty room with some pipes). Very strange.
Yes, I thought it was funny that the author wants to demonstrate their sophistication by telling their readers how it's pronounced properly, and gets it wrong, thus revealing themselves to be ignorant.
Spent the last year searching for a reasonable aged Bosch 300 series or above. Finally found a 3 year old Bosch 500 for less than $200. Good dishwashers are totally worth it, relatively easy to repair, quiet, efficient, and clean well. If I had my pick it would be a mid-high end Bosch, or a Miele.
I once saw a kitchen in Italy which had a cabinet right above the sink. You wouldn’t notice when it was closed, but if you opened it you’d see it didn’t have a flat bottom but dish racks.
So you’d wash your stuff, put them in the cabinet, and they’d dry in there with the excess water falling directly in the sink.
I haven’t used the system myself, but the people living in the house liked it.
Just remodeled my kitchen and I don't have space in my tiny place for a washer.
So, I went with Kingsfors shelves system (similar [0]) instead of cabinets and one of the inserts is this drying rack [1]. Ends up serving kind of as a storage system too.
Really happy with it. I don't understand why people build cabinets around their shelves... you have to open doors to get at things and memorize where everything is at, which is really not optimal.
One thing to note about Miele's (but not unique about them): It's not trivial to repair them yourself. You need a specialized inductive cable to read error codes and if you don't want to lose warranty, only a certified repair technician is allowed to fix it.
Also, the brand itself is getting more 'blurry'. Miele refrigerators are actually made by Liebherr.
I think it depends on the failure. I’ve repaired a Miele washing machine recently, and found the insides of it wonderfully overbuilt and modular, with every bit of metal bent over to remove sharp corners.
It was a real pleasure to work inside of. Far better than the AEG I repaired just before, that was all tightly integrated parts, and sharp edges just waiting to slice you up.
That sounds like any (semi)good car in the last 10-20 years.
Like 5-6 years old Skoda Octavia (which are generally lasting so long YouTube nickname for them is "Good 'ol miles"). Until one evening you park it just fine in front of your house. And next morning power steering is no longer working.
Official VAG dealer/repair shop folks were like "Well you know it's electric stuff like light-bulb - one day it works, and next day you want to turn it on and it goes poof". Except this light bulb is angle sensor, power/hydraulics and T beam "sealed" all-in-one, and costs 1-2K Eur (which was ~10% of whole cars worth).
In the US, the Magnuson-Moss Act provides significantly more consumer protection than most people think. If you work on a warrantied item and break it, the warranty doesn’t protect you from your own breakage. If you service an item and it has a defect unrelated to your service, the warranty still applies.
Unlike cost saving/outsourcing combinations like Renault cars or Grundig TVs being made in Turkey. Or other PR releases mentioning keywords like "synergy" (say Microchip/Atmel comes to mind).
Well I don't know about Liebherr excavators and such machinery. But Liebherr refrigerators and freezers are amongst the best there are.
I know at least for Bosch dishwashers, all tiers have the same pump and washing mechanics - you will get pretty similar cleaning performance from any of them. The more expensive models come with more gimmick cycle modes or fancier racks, but fundamentally the same guts that make it “tick”. I know Miele does similarly with their vacuums - they all have the same great suction motor, and come with different accessories and attachments.
I've been to the Bosch d/w factory in North Carolina, they also own the Thermador brand and build the appliances side by side on the line. Thermador appliances get slightly thicker metal and hinges, but the same internals.
After having various Bosch machines - 4 years ago we got Miele clothes washer and separate drier - with wifi et al.
For all the good engineering put into them... I was at a loss at official way to stack two of them. Which is to buy official "add-on" that goes in between the washer (suggested to be at the bottom) and drier (suggested to be above). Attaching that add-on means drilling/screwing into top plate of the machine that's below, with kit including small (superglue size) silicone to seal those new holes.
When we were remodeling our kitchen in 2018, I would ask around to contractors, store sales reps, and others for which appliances they preferred. Couldn’t get anyone to agree on ovens, stoves, washing machines, fridges, or freezers. But every person I talked to recommended a Miele dishwasher. We have been very happy with ours!
They're not even expensive. I replaced a horrible KitchenAid with a Bosch 800 that was much less expensive, better in every way, and at this point has enjoyed a much longer lifetime than the KitchenAid.
I did a bunch of research last year, replacing mine. I realized broadly there are three tiers of dishwashers, which each tier basically being the same model with more features turned on.
The low end was <$800, these tend to be loud and not as effective.
Mid tier was <$1800, these were much quieter and washed well, but were a bit slower in terms of drying, and had a slightly clunkier user experience.
Finally here were the ones that are $1800+. They tended to dry more quickly and had smoother open/close/slide feel.
I ended up settling on ~$1300 Kitchenaid. It was quieter than my old (cheapo) dishwasher, washes well, and feels nice to use.
I recommend visiting a specialty appliance store and physically interacting with the dishwashers. The Bosch ones surprised me by how unpleasant they were to use for their price. The Kitchenaid felt closer to the $2500 ones.
We just bought a Miele to replace a Bosch dishwasher. The Bosch was leaking internally and we had to keep draining it out. A technician came to look but couldn't find the problem - he wanted to take it away for 2 weeks. I don't understand why all the seals and tubes can't just be replaced at a service interval. To Bosch credit, they didn't charge for looking at it and it's out of warranty and he was here for hours.
We switched because Miele have a much longer warranty and sell direct from their website. We'll sell on the Bosch and hopefully someone with a bit of leak hunting time will get a nice dishwasher for cheap.
The only thing better than a Miele is a Miele Professional. All the benefits of the household models but a lot faster. My PG8081 takes 36 minutes when it's full. That's when it's connected to 230 volts. My friend has the same model running on 380 volt, it takes 21 minutes. In both cases the machines are connected to hot water as solar water heating panels are installed.
The only thing I miss in my Miele dishwasher is some indicator of whether the dishes inside are clean or dirty. Many a time my spouse will run the dishwasher overnight and in the morning I will, unknowingly, add my dirty breakfast dishes and run the machine again.
I've also learned never to wash anything with aluminum: the metal becomes pitted and loses its smooth surface.
We have a US model Bosch dishwasher. As someone who grew up in Stuttgart it pains me to say I don't love it. It's reliability is so-so and the plastic parts on the inside break apart. I'm just going to chalk it up to cost-cutting for the export models but I could be wrong.
I had a rental with a really nice Bosch dishwasher and it was truly impressive. Absolutely silent (literally almost couldn't tell it was working) and very well made. Made me a Bosch appliance convert for life.
A year or so ago I bought a Bosch 800 series to replace the bargain basement model my house came with and it's been great so far. The Bosch's noise level isn't a problem at all despite being practically in the living room (open floor plan kitchen + living room), and the build quality difference between the two was just staggering… The original cheapo was so light I could carry it around on my own all day long, while the Bosch was so much heavier that moving it was a two-person affair.
As nice as this is, I would not want to wait 6 months for a dishwasher. Give me the cheap LG that will be here next week, I will buy that fancy Miele when they sort out their supply chain issues.
My repair guy came by last week to fix my Maytag dishwasher. He noted it was ready to be replaced. We are heavy users.
This guy has been in his job for over 30 years. He uses a flip-phone, and has encouraged me to do my own repairs on multiple appliances over the years. He is not trigger-happy on replacement.
I expressed surprise that the machine needed to be replaced. It was barely 7 years old! I have already replaced the pump, and two washer assemblies. I asked him what the average life span is for a typical dishwasher these days.
Because it depends on how you use it and your water quality.
10yr for hard users, 20yr for light users. Most people are presumably in between.
Edit: On second thought the lower bound is heavy use, the upper bound is probably "we can't guarantee all the rubber won't degrade and leak after this age".
Our last Miele dishwasher lasted for 11 years. The current one has been going for 10. We are a household of 6 and often set the dishwasher off 2 or 3 times a day so we are probably hard users.
As for our Miele washing machine - it is still going after almost 30 years! The main bearing is going so it is VERY LOUD and unfortunately not economic to fix. The Meile tech I asked said the failure mode would be leaking water so I said we'd wait for that. Still doing OK 2 years later :-)
> My Miele dishwasher cleaned a pot coated with burned caramel. Need I say more?
The thought of hardened caramel being melted by my dishwasher, rinsed down the drain and then re-hardening on my pipes and dishwasher internals is enough to give me nightmares.
My first thought when I saw the headline was "oh cool a start-up that disrupts dishwashing, I wonder what fancy overpowered tech they throw at the problem".
And then it turns out to be a Miele, one of the common go-to brands for household appliances in Germany.
Fun fact: Miele is actually one of the few companies that has technicians that carry a ton of spare parts in their vans, so when you got an issue you just call a number, get an appointment, and then somebody comes by your house and will probably get everything working again in an hour or two. They also carry custom made suitcases with build-in Thinkpads for diagnostics and a tiny desk for writing.