Hacker News new | comments | show | ask | jobs | submit login
Migrating away from Puppet to cdist (Python3) (schottelius.org)
94 points by mahmoudimus 2151 days ago | hide | past | web | favorite | 52 comments



We wanted a push based configuration management, that actually had reasonable error messages. We were looking at puppet, but the undecipherable error messages were such a pain!

We searched and found cdist. We're very much enjoying it. The reasons he lists for switching against Puppet resonated with me very much.

Plus, it's written in Python3, which might be a turn off for some, but it's a pretty cool demonstration that python3 is making its way in the wild.


It appears that all the target configuration is done the old fashioned way with shell scripts run on the target machine. The Python3 code runs on the hose machine and decides what scripts to run where. The code base (according to sloccount) is 55% python and 45% shell.


I looked through the docs, but couldn't find anything interesting regarding exchanging data between nodes. Everything seems to be isolated and the only real exchange seems to be possible in local script generators. How do you do stuff like "find all running frontend nodes and put them into this config file", or "find a database node and create a config with credentials valid for that node" using cdist?


I haven't looked at puppet in a while, but I think this feature is only possible in chef, where each node can execute search queries on the chef server. It is actually one of the reasons I prefer chef to puppet. I guess since the developers of the tools are coming from the puppet world, they did not think about implementing it.

Wether this kind of feature should be implemented in the CM tool is another debate :)


Puppet provides a mechanism called Exported Resources allowing nodes to provide bits of config for use by other nodes. For example I presently export Nagios check resources for webservices on my web nodes, which are collected by my Nagios server for building it's config.


So cdist requires python on the target server, or does it somehow roll its own once hooked in? Or is Python only used for the front-end?


From the posted link:

> "In cdist we only use a posix shell on the target plus common UNIX tools (like find, rm, grep), as defined by POSIX."


Presumably once they ssh in they can install python in a virtualenv or do anything they want basically. I would imagine this would be only a bootstrap problem.


Hmm, why the downvotes?


A few people have clarified what runs where, and you're ignoring them with an irrelevant and misleading point. To clarify, Python is not used on the slaves.


I wanted to know if "doesn't run on the target" means a bootstrap dependency only. After the target has been setup for configuration I don't see a reason why Python, Ruby or anything can't be installed in a sand-boxed environment.


I used to work on Puppet's code professionally, and it's true that all of the listed problems affect the Puppet software to some degree. It's always a challenge to fix problems in software that people are actively using - I can't help but notice that one of the complaints is too many significant changes between versions!

Puppet evolved to solve a lot of different problems for a lot of different people, and I'm continually impressed by the ingenuity of the community, but having to solve all those problems at once means that it's hard to change behavior at all. My intuition is that a collection of more discrete components - one that uses Unix commands instead of ruby libraries, for example - will probably eventually replace Puppet (and Chef, and the others).

In the meantime, though, there's an impressive amount of sysadmin knowledge baked into the Puppet codebase - it can accomplish very diverse tasks on very diverse platforms - and there's no easy way to extract the results of its evolution into other software.


> one that uses Unix commands instead of ruby libraries, for example - will probably eventually replace Puppet (and Chef, and the others).

I hope not... There's a huge value in being able to operate on proper data types easily. I can get a hash and output a corresponding .ini-like file in a couple of lines in chef. This would be a nightmare to do in shell.


that's not the part I meant! Clearly we need good programming languages to manipulate data. I just think that for the part that touches the OS, using shell commands and piping their output to a parser is more reliable than the equivalent ruby libs.


There were design issues with puppet that could only be code-mached over. I tried implementing 3 'providers' for puppet about a year ago and hit really simple issues that should not exist in even mediocre software.


Yeah. There are some things in Puppet that are shockingly convoluted. A lot of the system needs a rewrite but it's not possible to do that without significantly breaking backward compatibility - and I found that every bug is considered a feature by somebody, and they are using them in production, on purpose.


There's one thing i dislike: releases are git based by default.

oh its great and all but it's pretty much like chrome and others: no testing.

this stuff is critical to the infrastructure, and yet again: no testing.

just git pull updates away! yeah, right then push configuration on this untested stuff over thousand of machines and watch it potentially break...

Oh that, and that it's YA configuration management tool, and of course, you don't switch those overnight "just to check out the newest kid on the block".

I'd much rather get puppet enhanced. (but yeah - some of the puppet issues are design issues which aren't going to change)

What I do like:

- push. ffs! pull uses more resources and means you rely a lot on the host to be working properly. with push you get errors back (can't connect, can't do X, etc)

- no ruby. woot. seriously, ruby's cool but its just not default.

- simple and straightforward. nuff said. kiss has been applied.

- since its simple its less likely to break in odd ways like puppet does, or die off because the master just doesnt handle the load. push model also help a lot here.

- easy to run off a laptop compared to puppet.


Funnily enough I just released Bootstrap (https://github.com/olegp/bootstrap) yesterday which addresses these very same issues I had with Puppet.

I'm initially focusing on Ubuntu Server LTS on AWS EC2. As a result, it's all Bash and very simple. I'm still working on the documentation, but would really appreciate any feedback or improvement suggestions you may have.


In the same vein, has anyone tried the py-based salt (saltstack.org) for config management?


Have not tried yet, but thanks for the link! Salt seems to be comparable to Mcollective - except, where Mcollective uses middleware (ActiveMQ or RabbitMQ or Apollo) which comes with its own server (broker), Salt uses ZeroMQ, with a built-in broker.


Actually, ZeroMQ is brokerless by design[1] which prevents a hop in all communications. The design is slightly more complex, but the speed increase is very real.

[1] http://www.zeromq.org/whitepapers:brokerless


I have to admit, it's very attractive to make it all essentially glorified shell scripts. Not only is it simple enough for most people to understand by default, it's easy to hack on and it's relatively portable.

The only thing I don't like about that is that you're essentially writing code, which - since this is a sysadmin tool - means you're depending on sysadmins to write code. This is usually a bad idea. With restrictive, structured language you can still provide for all the features they've built into their types/manifests/gencode/etc without relying on someone being able to program.

I was maintaining one part of a configuration management tool at a previous gig. The idea was to have a simple key=value file which essentially set identical environment variables. There was support for a few magic words like "REQUIRED" and "OPTIONAL", some very rudimentary logic statements ("if KEY=VAL then KEY2=VAL2") and an optional executable program for each config file to do extra magic that might be needed before the real configuration management kicked in (Cfengine2 at the time). In this way one or two people could write some generic config management modules/scripts and the environment variables would tell them what to do, so anybody could build and deliver configuration with only a key=value file and no programming. Everybody could pick up the format or copy an example because it was dead simple. Best of all: almost no code to maintain.


means you're depending on sysadmins to write code

You're not seriously suggesting to give the management of a complex deployment into the hands of a person who can't program?

With restrictive, structured language you can still provide for all the features they've built into their types/manifests/gencode/etc without relying on someone being able to program.

Sorry, it's delusional to think you could operate puppet without being able to program. In theory the puppet language is said to be "not quite turing complete" or "mostly declarative".

In reality there is no such difference. It's just a (poorly designed) programming language with domain-specific constraints. It does have all the concepts that give non-programmers headache: variables, classes, parametrizable classes, defines, inheritance, etc. And on top of that you better know your ruby, too, because you won't get away without writing custom types, resources and functions. So... your admin is not just using the language - he's also extending it!


I'm a sysadmin, who can't program, who has setup and used puppet very successfully at two different comscore top-100 sites to provide faster, more reproducible builds with better revision tracking and change control. There's nothing delusional about it, its working quite well and I'm being payed quite well.


You're not seriously suggesting to give the management of a complex deployment into the hands of a person who can't program?

No. I'm suggesting giving the maintenance of the "code" portion of a deployment system to a developer, and having that developer craft it in such a way that a trained monkey can write a couple lines of metadata and have it deploy pretty much whatever you need. Which is how it worked for us in the past (and worked quite well).

I'm sorry but I think you misunderstood me; I was never talking about Puppet.


cdist: For anyone looking for a tutorial this is (unfortunately all) that there is: http://www.nico.schottelius.org/software/cdist/man/2.0.4/man... More docs under: http://www.nico.schottelius.org/software/cdist/man/2.0.4/man...

puppet: Making the error messages a bit better and switching to ssh as a transport mechanism would make a lot of people happy.


The docs at http://www.nico.schottelius.org/software/cdist/man/2.0.4/man... are outdated, they mention a quickstart and a cdist-env that don't seem to exist: https://github.com/telmich/cdist/issues/6


Disclaimer: I work for Puppet Labs.

The error messages are getting much better - we have a newly-formed UX group that is working hard on the command line. If you haven't watched Randall Hansen's UX talk from PuppetConf it's here - http://bit.ly/zg5D0l [video - Youtube] - he goes quite a bit into where we're looking to improve.

SSH as a transport mechanism - can you provide some reasoning as to why that's an issue for you? Network/firewall concerns, access controls, or something else?


Seem to rely on using password-less ssh as root! So one machine can ssh into all your servers as root? [0]

Sounds dangerous.. There's a reason you would normally protect your ssh keys with a passphrase. Do you really want leaked file(s) to permit root login to others servers?

Think it should at least: - Use authorized_keys to limit what can be done with the key - use ssh_agent instead of keys to somewhat limit the exposure if/when the laptop with cdist is stolen/cloned/hacked.

[0] http://www.nico.schottelius.org/software/cdist/man/2.0.4/man...


It's not as crazy as you imply: it's a configuration management system - it has complete control over your machines. Giving it root or not is irrelevant.

Password-less login: if your ssh key uses a passphrase, combine with keychain or ssh-agent.


My point was that storing unprotected keys for all your servers on one or more "unprotected" laptops/PCs seems like a bad idea.

Yes, to some extend it can be mitigated with ssh-agent, but that's not what they do in their tutorial. And even with ssh-agent, can't someone steal all your keys from memory?.

"It's not as crazy as you imply: it's a configuration management system - it has complete control over your machines. Giving it root or not is irrelevant."

This is crazy in its own regard: Giving one piece of untested, unhardened code control over all your machines. At least the code-base is small..


Okay. Out of interest, do you have any idea on how you would design a configuration management that works without root access to all of the machines you want to configure?


The problem isn't exactly with root (configuration management has root-like privileges), but push vs pull.

Both rely on the confidentiality of a private key on the master (the server identity if it is a pull, client identity if it is a push), but to fool a pull you also have to subvert the dns or the routing. Using ssh certificates that expire and are tied to the master's address would be a good first step making push safer against key interception.


If someone can find a way to write to your master change management repo, you're boned. (Is it sitting on NFS? If so, you may have a problem!) If someone roots the master box that you're pushing from or that your clients are pulling from, you're boned.

Technically you don't have to use root anywhere. You can push from a master box as an unpriviledged user and specify any user on the target machine to connect as, and ssh keys (along with an agent) will take care of the rest. The target machine doesn't need to be running your config management as root, you just need to set up a config management account with rights to the users/groups that your services are running. Your service may get compromised but root wouldn't - until they run a local priv escalation 0day.

I think you're confused. Since the tools are using either SSL or SSH these protocols (when properly implemented) prevent mitm or spoofing attacks on things like dns or routing protocols. Your key does not get intercepted, ever, because you're never sending a private key. But some machine, somewhere, has to have keys or you can't log in.

The only thing you have to worry about is someone getting both the keys AND access to a server that's running an agent that you've authed with. If you're super duper paranoid ssh-agent has an option to never cache a given key's authorization so it can ask you for the password for the key every time you use it. I'm pretty sure that would be super annoying, though, so better to just run one agent once for an entire batch push/deployment and kill it once your job is done.


In reply to your earlier comment, it's a configuration management precisely because it has root - not irrelevant!

That's a distraction though - gizzlon is right that it is extremely bad practice to recommend people keep unprotected keys to root accounts on a personal computer.

Using passphrases and ssh-agent is a good and widely accepted solution to this problem (along with gizzlon's advice of having someone peer-review the code, again very standard and obvious).


well, at first glance pull seems much safer: All the machines can log in as special (non-root) user at _one_ server and fetch commands to run.

If the master server is compromised, all the other servers might* be as well, but at least you're not spreading root@ ssh keys around.

* Maybe it's possible to predefine functions on the client and only ever run those. In practice that probably won't work because those functions will be either not powerful enough, or easy to misuse.


Good Lord, my eyes! The website needs some serious work.


Web browsers usually allow the user to change a site's look quite a lot. Try applying a custom stylesheet, or perhaps Readability.


His complaint is that the website is horrible.

Telling him to redesign it or use Readability doesn't change that.


It looks exactly like a PuTTY terminal, not surprising for a systems admin.


I might just give this a try.

I postponed using Puppet/Chef because it didn't seem right that they were Ruby and thus had their own dependency chain.

Seems to me automatic configuration should be as close to whatever is available on a bare install, meaning C/bash.


At least for (recent versions of) Ubuntu Server, a C compiler isn't available on a bare install, so it'd need to just be Bash.

And what's with the aversion to dependencies? Installing Ruby is just an apt-get invocation away from a bare server.


Anyone have a comparison between cdist and fabric?


Fabric sends a bunch of commands over ssh. It's very simple, and your task is to write the right commands.

> Puppet in contrast to other systems emphasised on "define what I want" versus "define what todo", which is a great approach and we've [cdist] shameless cloned this approach.

With cdist and puppet you describe resources by instanciating resource types like Package, CronJob, Service, File, etc. It's very concise and high-level. Types are composable and easy to reuse, so if you see a common pattern in your configuration, you can factor it into a type.


fabric is not really configuration management


What the... You don't really think fabric is configuration manage do you


It's very frustrating that none of these tools work well with windows.


It's very frustrating to work with Windows. The lack of a POSIX compliant shell in the standard distribution is what's holding it back the most.

Mac OS 9 and prior was also super frustrating to work with for similar reasons.


Both Chef and Puppet have made big strides with Windows support recently and people are using them in anger. Might be worth reading the following:

http://www.opscode.com/blog/2011/05/24/chef-hearts-windows/ http://projects.puppetlabs.com/projects/1/wiki/Puppet_Window...


Times are changing. For the better if you ask me ; )


besides the bootstrap problem, I don't see how chef doesn't solve the issues they had w/ puppet.

Perhaps there were things that disqualified chef in their eyes?


I would suggest that anyone interested in Configuration Management would read the article, event if they are pretty sure that their tool of choice is exactly right.

I have used puppet in the past an am now a happy chef user. I find that node attributes, data bags and search queries (from the nodes themselves) are very compelling reasons to use chef.

I agree that installing either chef or puppet on even a somewhat recent distro can be difficult, and this might be one of the reasons that CM is not as widespread as it should (I maintain PRM packages for chef, and it is no so easy...). So I agree with one of the points made by the author. But I have to admit I pretty much discarded his other ideas after reading the article at first, even though I poked around in the documentation.

But then, I thought about the points made and I must say that a CM tool made of small, autonomous, well tested "parts" makes a lot of sense. If you think about it, a CM system's job is to configure UNIX servers (mostly), so why not implement it the UNIX way? It is a bit like the Hubot implementation by Ted Dziuba: back to basics!

You CM tools, wether puppet of chef, must: deliver files to nodes and then execute code to ensure that they are in a proper state (it's a bit more complex than that, but not that much). I'm not sure if it's better to use push of pull for file delivery, but this should be an independent task, that could be implemented either way. Using SSH for security and access control seems like a no brainer. Then comes the compliancy part, where code is executed to ensure that the node is configured the way you want it. Why not have a bunch a small programs, which could be implemented in different programming languages, do it?

Let me give an example. Both puppet and chef work, at the lowest level, with resources. You define them in containers (manifests or recipes) and then make sure they are defined on the nodes. You could have "file", "package, "user" or "template" resources (for example), like:

  # this is pseudo chef code for a fictional redis recipe
  package "redis" do version "1.0" end
  user "redis" do uid 230 end
  template "/etc/redis.conf" do
    user "root"; group "root"
    mode "0644"
    notifies :restart, "service[redis]"
  end
Why not have each resource definition as a UNIX programs, that can be executed independently? My understanding is that cdist uses shell functions, but I would prefer regular programs, which could be called from anywhere:

  # in a shell script, distributed by the CM tool
  package redis --version 1.0
  user redis --uid 230
  template /etc/redis.conf --user root --group root --mode 0644 --restart redis
(I know this looks pretty much like what cdist does, but I'm trying to get to the point made by the author without being distracted by the puppet critique)

I am convinced you still need attributes, bits of data attached to roles and nodes, for your CM to be efficient, but I don't see any reason this could not be implemented in cdist.

Anyway, this comment is getting really long and I am not sure I made my point. I guess I'm more thinking out loud rather than commenting on the article :)

Do yourself a favor, read the article, put aside the implementation details and website design, and think about the underlying points.




Guidelines | FAQ | Support | API | Security | Lists | Bookmarklet | DMCA | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: