Argh, I hate the solar salesmen. We get them all the time during the warm season. I have a hard time going the rude route and just shutting the door on them, but I'm improved a lot in shutting down their arguments with three sentences of my own stats. Pretty quickly they know I've run the numbers, figured out why it doesn't make sense for me, and I've shut down all arguments they want to make. Usually they just say "Wow, it sounds like you're already given this a lot of thought." Umm, yeah, yeah I have. I wanted the numbers to work. I tried to convince myself. Even with Project Solar pricing, it does't work for me. So it sure as hell won't work if I pay your prices that give you such a nice commission.
Some people in polite parts of the country have a hard time ending a conversation if the other party won’t let them/follow the local social protocol (not being sarcastic).
When I was a bachelor, that was my strategy. Still annoying, but at least I avoided the confrontation. Now I have a couple youngish kids and more often than not knocks at the door mean friends coming over, so they end up answering without checking first and then I get called to deal with the stranger at the door.
Cold salespeople are such scum. They take advantage of telephones are doorbells, which can interrupt your focus at any time, and are really intended only for people that you actually know.
Thankfully we now have caller ID and the ability to block unknown callers. Now we need the same for doorbells!
I used to get bothered by Jehovahs Witnesses and salesmen, but a ‘No Solicitation’ sticker on my front door was the best improvement I’ve done to my house
Rejection/objection handling and sheer persistence aside, I'm unsure if many of the sales tactics employed in door-to-door or high-pressure sales cross over into enterprise software sales.
From what I've seen, high-pressure sales relies heavily on manipulation (i.e. invoking feelings and emotions within the customer to drive them towards an outcome) over value, and encourage volume (i.e. grinding, hitting as many houses/people as you can) over quality (i.e. qualifying, qualifying again, then maintaining those relationships for as long as possible, providing value all throughout). They're the same techniques that people high on MLM pyramids or closers in call centers employ. FUD can go a long way.
Also, enterprise sales cycles are much, much longer. Six months is fast in this space. The deal sizes are much larger, so the process is worth it, but because high-pressure sales typically deals with much smaller amounts, closing fast is key.
More emphatic people can probably make the switch easily, but the less-sophisticated hustlers and pseudo-grifters would get outed pretty fast. Interestingly, the reporter of this article stated that the salesman they followed is interested in going into real estate and has already dabbled in crypto, where those personalities tend to do very well.
Also, many of the sales folks that I've interacted with did not have high-pressure sales backgrounds. In fact, many of them were engineers at one point or another!
Everyone in sales can follow their own way. They can do high pressure sales if they wish.
However, it has been proven over and over that having discussions with people is the statistically best way to make a sale. Be actually interested in the person. Ask questions.
This guy took the time and actually took interest in HER:
Liam pointed out a Navy license plate on a car in the driveway.
“My sister is in the Navy,” the woman said.
“OK, well, thank you for your service, and happy Veterans Day,” he said. “Fun fact, I’ve had a relative in every American war, dating back to the Revolution.”
Something softened, ever so slightly.
This is not a cheap tactic to try to "get" someone.
I remember one time I was talking to a prospect over months, he told me that he and his wife were expecting a child in May. I called him at the end of May and we did our regular talk and I asked if his baby was born. Yes, a healthy boy. So I sent him a congratulation card with a hand-written note congratulating him and his wife. I called back in a few more weeks, and first thing he said was, "I got your congratulation card. Nobody else sent me one, even people I've known for 25 years." I got his order that call.
Some might think that this is a cheap tactic on my part to get an emotional response to manipulate the guy. I'm not going to lie and say that I don't think that, but it is in an intellectual manner only. I actually was very happy he and his wife had a healthy baby. I do get emotionally involved with my clients, same as a lot of other business owners do. Maybe like a hair salon person with her or his clients. I've had clients who I saw 3 times per week for years on end. It's impossible not to form a personal relationship.
Even if it is a one-call type of sale, I still like to have a deeper conversation and learn about them, whether they buy or not. I've learned a lot of cool stuff just by talking to people, even if they don't buy.
> This is not a cheap tactic to try to "get" someone.
It sure does a good job of looking like it. It's an attempt at emulating friendship in the hopes of coopting social mores about friendship in order to make a sale.
I do sales, but I also buy stuff, too. When I go to a place to buy something, expecially if it is a little more complex and I need some help understanding, I want a person who is nice and friendly. I don't want a jerk that looks like they hate being there and barely answers my questions and non-verbal communication shows that they disdain me and hate their job.
Someone might be emulating friendshpi to coopt and manipulate, but as a buyer, I'd rather have an emulation than an asshole help me.
But you are also ignoring the fact that salespeople are also humans, and we all like to make contacts and friends with other people. Am I perfunctorily friendly, emulate friendly sometimes? Sure, of course. But are there times when I genuinely like the other person and wouldn't mind a long-term actual friendship? Absolutely.
All of us have to emulate friendships, though. Just about everyone. We all are polite to our boss, even though we might hate him or her, because they are our customers - they give employees money. The employee is the "salesperson," starting right from the job interview. A nice person who is not as skilled and talented but who is still good but communicates great and is nice person is generally going to get the job over someone who is a lot more talented but who is a dick.
If you are a barber, you treat your customers well to have them come back. It's part business and emulating friendship, but part real.
And also, while I do treat people well and better than I would if I just met them on the street randomly, I personally also care in general about giving the best service that I can - but that is a personal integrity thing. I think most good salespeople feel likewise.
And here's another thing. When I make a sale, I send a thank you card with a $10 gift card to Starbucks or something like that. I've talked to people who tell me that they are having a baby in 4 months, and in 4 months I'll call them back and see how everything went. Then if all went well with a healthy baby, I send a congratulations card. At some level, the people I sent it to, they are not stupid. They completely understand that there is a sales aspect to it, for absolute sure. But at the same time, people are touched by it. I remember sending a congrats card to a guy who just had a baby and I sent a congrats card. He said that I was the only person that did this. People who he knew for 25 years and more, all his friends and relatives - nobody else did. And, I completely meant it. It was also not fake. I personally was VERY happy he and his wife had a healthy baby.
And I know a lot of salespeople will give the best fit, and will turn down a sale if there's no fit. The reason is that having integrity will get a salesperson a LOT more sales in the long run, and repeat sales are where the real money is. They are not going to jeapordize a long-term relationship for a short term gain. Not all sales people, but many do.
I hope this thorough explanation helps you understand a little more.
Be careful with salespeople, yes. But if you find a "good one" then make sure you go back to him or her when you want to buy something. Because it is difficult to find people you can trust.
My brother always uses the same realtor, who goes WAY above and beyond his job description, and everyone in our family and his friends now use the guy, that's like, probably at least 25-30 people that this realtor got from being a good salesperson to just one client.
How? Without government incentives like for EVs, the upfront costs still take too long to recover even with the supposed energy savings and cheaper Chinese solar components.
There’s definitely feel good incentives, but not monetary.
I have a friend that makes 450k running a door to door solar panel sales team. Two years ago he was making about minimum wage. There’s a huge premium for being willing to knock on strangers doors
There's always big money in immoral shady dealings.
Sorry, I know that's snarky and rude. And there's definitely a big gray line of morality in life. They're not actively murdering anybody. Not directly. But their moral framework by definition is drastically different than mine - we have chosen our own spots on that gray line and they're incompatible.
(I've been exposed to various sides of that line, including being recruited and going through brainwashing I mean training for various door to door sales gigs).
It’s not inherently immoral to be in sales. If you actually do believe that solar panels are a good investment for a house and believe the company you’re working for does good work, working to inform other people of this would be from your view a moral positive. In practice of course it is easy to end up lying to increase your paycheck, or fooling yourself into believing your company is good because your paycheck relies on it. But if someone chooses a good company and doesn’t lie to potential clients, I think that’s fine.
At an old job we had to go to a "retreat" of a sort where the sales guys and technicians all schmoozed.
The company had made sales do tech work and techs do sales work neither side liked that. Sales guys just ignored it and called techs on a Friday afternoon to take the tech call they didn't have time for (yeah right). Techs worked days and were also on call sales didn't have to be on call.
At the meeting sales guys were slick with fancy suits, greased back hair (yes in 2008?) and had company cars. Techs were in golf shirt and jeans company trucks full of parts.
We all had to take a test you were scored on your responses and given a colour. All the sales based on their responses were put in one colour group yellow I think and all the techs in green. Like oil and water.
Technically correct, but if you avoid doing the immoral things, you will probably notice that your more experienced colleagues make much more money than you. And if you refuse to improve your performance, you will probably get fired.
Depends a huge amount on where you work. You're not getting enterprise deals through cheesy pressure sales tactics, and you're not renewing enterprise deals by saying yes to everything.
You're also unlikely to be earning less doing that than telling people they get a discount if they sign the contract before checking out any other window companies and sign up to the great value financing plan...
I don't think sales, in general / in principle, has to be immoral. There's shades and details etc. We can argue value to business vs value to consumer, but in general sales, there's nuances. But we are not talking general sales here - we are talking door to door salespeople specifically.
The article focuses on the sales person and for reasons of focus or otherwise, ignores the heard of elephants in the room - what happens to the buyers afterwards.
Vast majority of door to door sales is predicated on anything from severe informational asymmetry to outright fraud. It has to be - there's a REASON why they're paid so much per sold account. It's hard work and it's swimming against the tide. From experience, they are trained and incentivized to find a weakness, with ferocious persistence and evolving methodologies, and will thus statistically exploit those with weakness. They pray on the very best of human emotions and instincts - unwillingness to be rude, eagerness to be friendly, to relate. They build and exploit implicit trust. Their product is by definition not good value - if unconvinced, imagine same product but for the price minus the salesperson commission. As I mention in more detail in parallel thread [1], nothing about average door to door salesperson is real - they're not your buddy, they will not hold your hand through the process, they will not be there to help you or answer your calls if/when things don't work out. As primary outcome of their endevour, they collectively reduce our trust in each other and faith in humanity.
(And like anything else in the wide and exciting world of MLM-likes, there's layers. Not only do the salespeople target the elderly/vulnerable, The door to door salespeople themselves are targeted to be recruited from specifically vulnerable or impressionable, and overall success rate of the profession is lousy. Very few doctors or engineers become door to door salespersons - a struggling minimum-wage worker or a new immigrant are the typical pools; I was the Venn diagram of both. I don't expect your friend to relate the true nature of their job to you, or likely even to themselves. But see if you can talk to their average buyer and get their thoughts).
Want more? Tune in the next episode of the grouchy cranky old man, where I rip into real estate agents :=>
It is. Advertisement IN ALL FORMS depends on deprecating (aka: shitting on) real conversation to supplant it with "buy crap".
The more advertisements are present, the less effective they are, and the worse genuine conversations get.
Door-to-door sales relies on people not actually being rude - in fact, it depends on it. And it tries to rush people to rapid hastily thought-out sales by triggering fight or flight. I have no issue in threatening them with criminal trespass and respond in kind if they refuse to leave.
It's a whole other thing if I am looking for X, and I seek people/companies that provide X. That's consensual, and doesn't serve to destroy communication and conversation.
A lot of people (overall) benefit by having someone overcome the friction people have built into doing things to provide them interesting options. Sometimes even the people buying.
Sales doesn’t have to be, and in larger places often isn’t, immoral.
Without it, we’d all frankly be a whole lot poorer in many ways.
But hot damn, the immoral ones sure do seem to make a lot of money fast. At least before the cops show up.
The people that buy these things tend to be the elderly. I shamefully worked as a telemarketer when I got my work permit as a child; almost no one at their top mental acuity game is buying this shit on a whim from these kind of techniques.
It's pretty sad. And almost all the 'salesmen' were high on xanax and other anti-anxiety medication to deal with both the rejection and to drown away their feelings about what they were doing.
I did door to door charity fundraising and there's a more straightforward reason why the people that engage tend to be the elderly: they're in all day (and quite likely to be bored enough to talk to strangers on doorsteps even if or especially if their mental acuity is great).
Obviously it varies: at the other end of the spectrum I suspect people calling random mobile numbers pretending to be Microsoft get most of their "business" from a small number of elderly people even though they're least likely to answer the phone.
I respect the hustle. By my home is my refuge, I don’t like ads when I browse the web, why do I want salesmen and religious types bothering me at home?
Tangential, but one of my favorite types of signs reads as follows:
"No solicitation - except tamale lady"
Could also say empanada or burrito or whichever local food item is available informally door to door by someone that probably reminds you of your grandmother.
I see these signs in the American southwest and every time my day is made; so delightful. Everyone has time for tamale lady.
Back in my youth I did door-to-door sales in the North-West of England. Pay wasn't great, but in terms of pure pleasure it was the best job I ever did.
That part of the country is known for friendliness, and I shared their accent, and they were simpler times, all of which combined to make the days a joy despite the random weather. Every day I'd have interesting conversations on the door, and on many days I'd get invited in for a cup of tea and more chat. Not just with lonely elderly people either.
As a way to get over social awkwardness, build self-confidence, and even just learn how to respect and understand a variety of beliefs, opinions, and approaches, it was life-changing.
I could never do it now; to earn anywhere near enough to replace my tech wage I'd probably have to compromise on some of my personal red lines. But not a moment is regretted.
The Globesman by Documentary Now! is just genius. They door to door globe salesmen at one point lament the atlas salesman keeps beating them to new territory.
I’ve been a software developer building systems to support door-to-door sales professionals for 15 years. Great to see journalism that shows the legitimacy of the profession.
Not sure of the legality of it, but I've enjoyed just recording the solar sales folks to knock on my door and turning it into a blog. I enjoy researching the claims brought forward to see how many of them I can debunk.
Door-to-door rooftop solar array sales are mostly a scam, it's a high-pressure low-information sales tactic and a terrible deal for the average homeowner.
Installation issues are shockingly common. Lots of new, poorly sealed holes in the roof being the biggest concern.
In leaving this review I hope to save one family the frustration and financial pain that working with Alex Lake of Spartan Solar has caused us. Please feel free to reach out if you want specific details.
We did not do enough research - and ended up fronting the money for the project on a loan that gave a kickback to Spartan Solar. In conversations with us (and in all their marketing literature), Spartan solar states that you will not pay anything until your solar panels are up and running. For us - this is not the case at all. The project is 10 months old and we are paying both hundreds of dollars a month for electricity and the full monthly payment for the loan (which inconveniently removes any leverage we might have with the installer if we had dealt with them directly). We have been paying both bills for the last six months - Spartan has ignored my complaints about this misleading advertising to date.
Our Solar panels were installed 8 months ago and are still not functioning. This is a sellers market and it is hard to get time with the installer, the city, and utility company - so I’m not surprised about this insane delay- but I am literally doing 100% of the work I was assured I would not need to do if I worked with Spartan Solar. I was assured we wouldn’t need to worry about coordinating these events and the Spartan team would have our backs. Due to communication problems between Spartan and their subcontractors about the need for a new main electricity panel our project was delayed multiple months. Two days ago we finally received permission to operate our panels. When we turned on the switch, they are not working however Spartan have not returned our calls/emails about this issue and we have had to chase the subcontractor to try and fix the situation. The subcontractors are unable to come and look at the problem until next month, and so we are still stuck paying for a non-working solar system and racking up large electricity bills in the hot California summer months.
I’m today’s market, solar installations are a commodity and the most important way to offer value to a customer is through effective communication. Here is where we were frustrated most with this whole experience.
Make sure you do business with a company listed on the better business bureau.
That's the thing. The article makes them implicitly sound like heroes - they sacrificed SO much for a dream, the dream of serving the customers. They're solar evangelists. The new generation of motivated do gooders. Wish everybody's child was like that!
But it's bs, I'm sorry. There's a reason nobody trusts door to door sales people. There's reason they target the elderly. There's a reason why they have a book-rack of sales techniques. There's a reason they're pushy and persistent and chameleons. And they get a significant paycheque for no actual service to the client.
I work from home with my father in law who's a curmudgeony grouch, yet once a week I have to leave a work call as I overhear them penetrating his defences. And then three weeks later there's an article in the local newspaper about X number of elderly scammed by door to door salespeople selling driveway repeir or duct cleaning or solar panels or roof replacement or whatever.
There is NO alignment of interest between you and the door to door salesperson. They have one goal and one goal only and that is making the sale. Nothing else is real, they're not your new buddy, and they will not be there for you after you sign.
(source - various ; I've been a home owner, have had family scammed, read a lot, and oh yeah, was a poor immigrant and went for several trainings to be door to door sales person and saw the insides of the machine)
This is an important part. Any promises about help in future, if they are not in writing, they mean nothing. What actually happens when you later call the person, is either they no longer work there (and no, the person who inherited their place is not going to honor the promises they made, you must have misunderstood), or they tell you that the condition for their help is you need to buy another expensive product first.
Right. It's unfortunately extremely common - even in-store clerk for major telecom swill make undeliverable promises and assurances; when it's a random, subcontracted, un-accountable stranger at your door, there's no limit to what they can say in the inherently he-said/she-said scenario.
There's NO earthly benefit to consumer to signing something from a door-to-door salesperson. You don't have the context, you don't have comparison, you don't have background, you don't have information, you don't have assurance or proof or trust or anything that it takes for you to make a beneficial decision. All you have are eroding defenses against a targeted onslaught. At best, at BEST, you'll get something you could've gotten with less risk and less pressure through regular channels. At worst - well, there's no upper limit to the worst. You may get a slightly more expensive regular product, or you may get a slightly subpar product, or you may end up in any number of various nightmare scenarios. There's just no upside.
I'm the nicest, politest, most conflict-avoiding person in real life, and known for it. And I hate that they push and push and push and make me turn nasty before they'll hear a "No".
My grandmother suffered Alzheimer’s, but wasn’t ready to leave her home, so my uncle moved in with her.
She called him at work to ask for her checkbook… two men had knocked on her door, convinced her that a tree on her property needed to be cut down, proceeded to cut it and leave it there, then demanded $400.
Uncle rushed home and ran these guys off, refusing to pay, but it was a dangerous scam. All it would have taken is one to distract her while the other helped himself inside the house.
This is staggering to me for a different reason. Having a single tree cut down (and removed, which I guess they didn’t do) in our neighborhood costs in the vicinity of $4000-$10,000.
If you have a chainsaw, you can pick the tree, and you're not worried about where the tree will land (it's far enough from anything important), cutting down a tree is pretty quick work. Making it land in a small area is difficult, and removing it is laborious.
$4,000 to $10,000 for a single tree removal is incredibly high. In a very high cost of living area I can have a very large tree removed by a licensed insured removal company, the best in the area, for $1,500.
Are you in the Bay Area? NYC? Those are about the only places I could imagine paying $4k or more.
I suspect over the pandemic and lumber boom, a lot of qualified/insured/bonded arborists ended up getting forestry jobs and in-city arborists became scarce, temporarily anyway. Kinda like what happened to shipping container prices.
>>Nothing about that story sounds like a scam to me.
I mean, that's just... naivete? Lack of experience? Wonderful but unwarranted faith in nature of humanity? I was there once myself, so I empathize and understand it, but it's also dangerous.
First, there's no reason random people would be knocking on your door to cut a tree right then and there. EVERYthing about that story should sound like a scam, from the get go.
Second, I'm sure you CAN have tree cutting and removal as different services. As a consumer, why would you, but sure. But - do you really feel this was explained to the buyer ahead of time? Do you believe this tree needed cutting, based on the random strangers' authority? Why were random people walking around with chainsaws?
I get these guys on a weekly basis. "They were just walking down the neighborhood and noticed that [my gutters needed cleaning | my driveway is in disrepair | my roof can use a quick fix | whatever]". Literally every time, as I mentioned, there's an article in local newspaper few weeks later about elderly being scammed.
What honest, reputable businessperson, especially a skilled tradesperson, wastes their time knocking on doors? They are in so much demand they don't even need to advertise, word of mouth and referrals keep them overbusy. We'd all kill for a reputable contractor. Whoever knocks on your door in the middle of the day is not of that persuasion.
Are you in Florida? Trimming and removing trees prior to hurricane season is a completely reasonable thing to do. It's very common here.
The equipment for tree removal is different. A big truck with a crane that lifts debris into the back vs a bucket truck and chainsaws. And stump removal is a whole other thing.
Not every operation is big enough to own multiple trucks.
To drop a, as far as we know, perfectly healthy tree and leave it in the yard?
We had a guy who was doing work in the neighborhood offer to take down a big beautiful Maple tree in our back yard. He tried to instill fear of the tree.
So many people are easily tricked into taking down perfectly healthy trees because they are big. What a loss.
I can echo your sentiment. My install is seriously delayed both by the city permits and the installers (who’ve now broken two panels). Luckily I only paid 25% upfront and the other 75% will be handed over on completion. So I’m sitting pretty with a new roof and uninstalled panels and while they have to figure out the cost issue.
I’m only able to say this because my deal was to pay upfront without financing.
For context, install and inspection were supposed to be done in July. It is now nearly December.
Project Solar just raised Series A to effectively cut out the sales rep. I put one in my roof at 1/3 the cost of other companies… even less the cost of Tesla which is priced pretty well.
But Urban Compass initially tried to cut out the overpaid realtor before eventually raising VC to be the largest realtor themselves. Let’s see if Project Solar pivots to become what they have initially set out to replace.
Who falls for these door to door salesmen’s Bs? I hate these guys knocking on my door. Really just wanna punch them in the face.
If I needed something Id go and buy it, don’t need some pushy sleazy salesman trying to trick me.
These door to door sales are so bad for the consumer there are even laws in states that state you have 3 days to back out of a contract signed during a door to door sale.
> If I needed something I'd go and buy it, don't need some pushy sleazy salesman trying to trick me.
In 2021, more than $285 billion was spent on advertising in the United States. Why? Because while you might think you have an "If I needed something I'd go and buy it" mentality, the evidence has clearly shown that most people can be influenced to buy things other than what they already recognize as a need.
Door-to-door salesmen are a form of advertisement of services, and for certain industries they can be more effective than print ads, billboards, etc.
Not that I necessarily like having my day interrupted for a sales pitch; I almost invariably don't answer or turn them away.
But I'm just saying that if you have ever responded to any form of advertisement, the "If I needed something I'd go and buy it" line is probably missing the mark.
Best I can tell, advertising is a whale game. Much like how mobile gaming is predicated on a percent or so of users who will sink an ungodly amount of money into skinner boxes, I suspect advertising has a very large effect on the habits of a relatively small fraction of the population. So it's quite possible that the average person could say, truthfully, "If I needed something I'd go and buy it", while advertising is still wildly profitable.
Oddly in theory I agree, but both myself and my parents where quite happy with door to door salesman purchases.
Door to door sales doesn’t need to be a scam. It’s perfectly viable to calculate when individual subdivisions are the right age to need new siding and then send a sales guy around. Similarly selling solar roofs are exactly the kind of thing people are likely to be happy with but don’t consider. If the sales guy is also knowledgeable enough to give a solid estimate and talk about financing options it’s cheaper for the company than sending people to drive around and make lots of estimates.
At the other end, you also have people running outright scams or selling dubious products at insane markups.
The only “legit” door2door I’ve seen is when a contractor will be in the neighborhood working on one house and he has someone mention it to the other houses if they want to get in on it (think tree trimming, etc) at a discount because they’re already there.
Most commonly the elderly and mentally disabled. Occasionally they have a retirement or come into a windfall, it's just a matter of statistics until the door-to-door guy finds them and parts them of it before the next guy does or before someone responsible takes control of their finances.
I had half the mind to when some asshole decided to show up and bang at my door in the evening, hours after typical business hours and asked me to take some survey. If someone is knocking in my door in the evening, it better be fucking important.
Lol, not in the city my friend. They will literally argue with me about how what they are doing isnlt solicitation. They truly believe that after starting out arguing with a complete stranger, they will somehow rope me into a sell. I told him he was soliciting, he ignored my sign and wanted him to off my property. He refused, I asked for his name and then he tried to fight me. I almost went out and purchased a gun because some unhinged individual was mad at me and had my address.
The problem with a "no soliciting" sign is there is no penalty for violating it. And given these people are already violating social conventions by harassing you, they don't particularly care.
"Soliciting will be rewarded with refreshing lawn sprinklers." Not that I'm a fan of watering lawns in general, but if I had a problem with solicitors I might have to install a few.
This is the problem with modern America. Door to door sales used to be an honored tradition and a way for more Americans to get to know each other intimately. The rise of the internet has eroded this sacred social connection we used to all share.
They’re even getting aggressive in Costco with their little booth. It doesn’t make for a pleasant shopping experience; it feels like Costco should tell them that customers must initiate and that they can’t come up to you and start talking about solar.
Over here we have spam calls selling solar panels. Every time the cunts claim they obtained the number legally from a data broker. My prediction is that our local parcel locker provider sells phone numbers, or recruitment platforms, one never knows what is in their TOS. Then of course there are usual suspects - FAANG.
