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Caffeine and Exercise Performance (grapplinglane.substack.com)
114 points by tb8424 on Sept 29, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 113 comments



Caffeine combined with L-Theanine does seem provide slight boost for focus to me.

That said, I think biggest mood/focus/energy difference (besides a nice workout which is also important) for me was getting vitamins and other micronutrients in order. I highly suggest you to do a blood test or two per year for all the common vitamins/micronutrients to see which you need to fix.

For men, I think it is especially important to get magnesium, vitamin D and zinc in order; lack of any will likely affect your testosterone levels negatively which will then screw you up in many more ways.

For example, way back I had critically low vitamin D resulting me in frequently getting sick and having periods of complete lack of energy; fixed that and I did not even get common cold for a long time, also no longer random days with no energy.

You shouldn't overly rely on nootropics, caffeine+l-theanine or other supplements to cover up base deficiencies with your micros.


> fixed that and I did not even get common cold for a long time, also no longer random days with no energy.

To state the obvious; Since there are so many things changing in our lives, it's impossible to know whether the "improvements" you mention were specifically caused (/only) by taking more vitamin D.


Sure thing. You should always be aware of anecdotal evidence.

In my particular case when I did initial blood test, vitamin D was the only thing critically low. There were few other micronutrients that were just slightly low. I was prescribed high-dosage D-vitamin supplements and was told to touch some grass while out in the sun (computer screen time did not count). In just a month after doing that my overall noticeably improved.

After the wake-up call with vitamin D efficiency I paid more attention to my diet and also having some regular exercise. Improving combination of those gave me my next jump in health improvement. Afterwards, I started using few supplements such as L-theanine with my usual cup of coffee in the morning, I'd like to believe it has given me just a slight boost in focus but it could still just be plain old caffeine. However, I know that some people respond to it a lot stronger so there is certainly variation and is quite anecdotal.


Sure, while you can't prove a direct cause-effect, the anecdotal evidence seems rather strong.

I also experienced this same effect after moving to London (from California) in the winter (very cloudy). I felt so low energy for a solid month, and was constantly feeling unwell. Moreover, I had the strangest "cravings" to bask in the sun (such a weird thing to explain, I've never had such an urge before).

The week that I started to figure out my Vitamin D deficiency, I made sure to get a lot of sun every day (it just started getting sunny in London). I noticed immediate improvements.


You can also see a doctor and get vitamin D injections.


Besides Magnesium, Vit D and Zinc, Potassium and Calcium are other micro-nutrients that affected general well-being for me. Both have relatively high daily RDIs (Potassium - 4700mg/day, and Calcium - 1300mg/day for adults) which can be difficult to hit without supplements, unless your diet includes servings of vegetables and dairy.

Potassium: https://www.famnom.com/nutrient/1092/

Calcium: https://www.famnom.com/nutrient/1087/


Vitamins, minerals yes.

But what I found super useful is gut health probiotics. No need to eat them all the time, just when you feel challenged.

I don't want to promote specific supplement products here, but let's just say there is one that helped me enormously.


Was your diet deficient in those vitamins for some reason?


I am a person who does not like seafood and I usually sit inside most of the day (software engineer). I guess there are egg yolks or dairy products like cheese that also contains some but it seemingly wasn't enough for me.

Resulted visiting a doctor who did a blood test, saw I had critically low vitamin D level (~5 ng/ml). Gave high-dose supplements of 20 000 IU to take every day for up to a month and to touch some grass under the sun :D

After fixing vitamin D I did improve my diet more as well (added more vegetables that fixed few other micronutrients that were just slightly low). Combining that with more exercise gave my next big jump in health improvement. I think my diet is pretty close to typical paleo-type diet excluding fish.


I know mine was chronically low in Magnesium. The first indicator which got my attention and pointed to a potential problem was that taking a multi vitamin would make me feel _much_ better than normal the next day.


taking a multi vitamin would make me feel _much_ better than normal the next day

My first comment is that I think this is why we have placebo-controlled double-blind studies.

My second is that I took a multi-vitamin for many years and I recommend caution in their use. For much of that time, when I went to the doctor for my yearly physical I would have elevated AST and ALT liver enzymes which is a marker of liver damage. All tests for typical causes of this (hepatitis, others) came up negative.

Finally my doctor asked if I took a multivitamin. I said yes and she told me to stop taking it. That was about 15 years ago and I have never had elevated liver enzymes since then.


Everyone should use a nutrition tracker like Cronometer for at least one day while they go about their normal diet.

It will show you nutritional holes in your diet like insufficient magnesium, vitamin C, zinc, etc that you can then fill with dietary solutions.

You also get to see what foods have what, it’s interesting. Like how one little prickly pear has 200% of your vitamin E needs.


> You also get to see what foods have what, it’s interesting. Like how one little prickly pear has 200% of your vitamin E needs.

Do you have a source for this (USDA FDC data and google-fu don't concur)? I'd love to have alternate options for Vit E besides almonds :). It's a fat soluble vitamin, available from nuts and nut oils - vegetable sources are harder to find.

https://www.famnom.com/my_food/294b1d1d-6ca3-47ac-9cd4-bfbd6...

https://www.google.com/search?q=prickly+pear+nutrition


What do you use for micronutrients? I recently started using a Green Powder, and I think I'm getting great results, but they are quite expensive...


For the past few months I am trying out Performance Lab's NutriGenesis Multi and Prebiotic products (https://performancelab.com/) for a mix of all micros but I will probably switch it down to some local multi-vitamin solution with a separate 4000 IU / 100 mcg vitamin D supplements that you can get locally (I live in Stockholm, Sweden).

I would, however, recommend improving your diet before loading yourself up with too many supplements. Just add various vegetables and you likely won't need to care about things like zinc, magnesium, iron and few more. I think vitamin D was one of the few micros you usually want to supplement as it's hard to get it high naturally. I am sure HN has some dieticians that know more.


On the cheap you can take a random ZMA and Vit D supps.

For full multivitamin, I recommend Thorne, which uses the most bioavailable chelated versions of vitamins and minerals. Once you learn how in-bioavailable the vast majority of ingredients in a standard MV are, you will feel sad


You can't just take a random ZMA. With combinations, you're more likely to get a poorly bioavailable form, like L-threonate, oxide, or hydroxide.

You should be looking for citrate or glycinate.

PSA: 48% of people have magnesium deficiencies, the highest of any vitamin/mineral, I'm pretty sure.

https://examine.com/supplements/magnesium/#dosage-informatio...


ZMA would be aspartate. (And oxide)


Yeah I was worried about bioavailability. I already use ZMA and Vit D, I will check out Thorne. Thanks!


I have long been fascinated by the degree to which WWII was fought on caffeine and nicotine (on all sides and all theatres). Other drugs (e.g. amphetamine and Benzedrine) get some press but we’re minor factors. I did a few experiments decades ago with nicotine, enough to notice its nice resonant behavior with coffee, but not enough I guess to notice any real benefit myself. I did relish the social habits associated with cigarette usage (the excuse for a brief pause in conversation to collect your thoughts, the social aspect of one person lighting up and others unthinkingly joining in, offering/receiving a light, cadging or offering a cigarette, sharing a single one, etc)

Tea and coffee have long been my companions. During Covid I cut down from two pots of brewed coffee a day to one. In June of this year I unexpectedly had to stop drinking coffee for almost a week and since then have had only one cup, which I accidentally drank out of habit (someone put a fresh one next to me while I was sitting and reading). After 46 years of daily high consumption I just…stopped. And I don’t miss it. I walk past the pot full of coffee in the kitchen and don’t notice it.

It makes me wonder how much is simply habit.


It's amusing to see "WWII" as if the military today doesn't still run on these things. It's more Monster energy drink and vaping these days (I guess still dip for dudes who grew up south of the Mason-Dixon line), but at least in the US Army, the Soldiers are still being fueled by caffeine and nicotine. All the other advice about vitamins and turning off screens and what not kind of goes out the window when you're getting 2 hours of sleep a night for over a year.


I used to drink heaps of coffee - a mug or two before work, two or three takeaway cups from the amazing 'Algerian Coffee Stores' on Dean Street, Soho. And then a filter or two in the afternoon.

Then one day I had a panic attack, not a terrible one, but I felt pretty shocking. The next morning I had my coffee, and the panic came back. Every time I drank coffee I felt the same.

I lusted after coffee, I had blinding headaches and would wake up thinking about coffee for a month or two. Even knowing what it would do to me, my body was desperate for it.

After about 6 months I could handle one small coffee again without panic, and now I can have two or three a day without issue - I've not tried pushing it further, but some days when I'm stressed, even a second coffee will leave me feeling a little overwhelmed.


Based on my experience combining Lion's Mane supplements [0] with caffeine I'm curious if it'd make any difference in your situation WRT caffeine. For me it eliminates ~all of the negative effects of the stimulant, even withdrawal symptoms, so I just go on and off of heavy usage at will.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Mushroom-Supplement-Vegetarian-Nature...


My wife has some of that - maybe I'll try it! Interestingly, since long covid, she can barely face coffee. Some days she'll have one, but generally too much for her (as is drinking alcohol now). So the supplements does not remove the negatives of coffee for her.


I feel you on the social elements. I find keeping a tin of breath mints and sharing them creates a similar social atmosphere with friends and colleagues, that shared time to mull over thoughts or chat, similar to a smoke break. Morning walks/runs also create this I find.


ah, I like this advice


Regarding your WW2 comment a Reading Spike Milligan and his descriptions of making tea under fire is excellent.

But as for coffee just being a habit, no way. I’m not sure how you did it so cleanly, but the headaches on stopping can be terrible.


> I’m not sure how you did it so cleanly

I was hospitalized, pumped full of drugs and didn't eat anything (except via IV) for a week -- the absence of caffeine thing was kind of a random side effect. Not an approach I would recommend!

I was pumped full of antibiotics and took more after being discharged so pretty well wiped out all the bacteria in my gut, which I replaced by eating yoghurt. My diet has changed fairly radically since then (zero interest in sweets, for example) so I wonder how much of my coffee and other food desires were actually my gut symbionts' desires.


Agreed caffeine withdrawal is real you don't switch off that habit with meaningful consequences on your body. However maybe tea has been covering the caffeine component and they slowly tapered off.

Additionally apparently having coffee first thing in the morning, your body gets adjusted to that and your brain gets dependent on coffee to get a quick start.


For people interested in using caffeine for tasks that don't provide an outlet for the jitteriness in the form of physical exercise:

Check out L-Theanine[1], it works wonders for keeping caffeine's focus, but dampening the anxiousness.

[1]: https://examine.com/supplements/theanine/


L-theanine is the active non-sedative anxiolytic in green tea that gives it such a "smooth high" when combined with its methylxanthine stimulants, theobromine and caffeine - which are natural pesticides, by the way.

Anecdote of one: I stopped taking L-Theanine because I would experience a noticeable comedown of apathy two days later.


Saying that theobromine and caffeine are pesticidal isn't particularly informative. Most secondary plant metabolites are likely to be pesticides, since there's a tremendous benefit to discouraging small animals from eating your lignified cells. Ascorbic acid is also a pesticide and fungicide, can dissolve bones down to calcium carbonate, yet it is critical to human life.


> I stopped taking L-Theanine because I would experience a noticeable comedown of apathy two days later.

This was also my experience, but not two days later - the same day. I'd take L-Theanine, feel okay for a few hours, then feel extremely irritable and anxious for the rest of the day. More L-Theanine didn't help.


Is there any statistics on whether women drink more green tea than men? It certainly seems that way.


> It certainly seems that way.

What makes you think that?


Exactly this happens to me as well.


I believe it's present in all teas: black, oolong, white etc... as well as green.


That would make sense as all of those are the same plant, just harvested at different times and treated differently.


Just a quick note of appreciation regarding the come down observation - I’ve been weaning down my caffeine to minimal but do want to keep the option open and not get too amped if I decide to have a caffeine day.


I only take L Theanine at night as a sleep supplement. It works well for that!


Theanine never did much for me. I tried several brands.


I'm an avid runner (50-70km/week) and I've been running for 5 years. I run long distances on trail.

Seems that although it increases performance and stamina for me it also brings my heart rate up, which is not desirable in most cases since I'm training ~80% of the time in zone 2 (aerobic). At given pace I can have few bits higher HR when caffeinated (between 5 and 10 bpm) which means that I need go go slower in order to stay in zone 2.

For me it's a tool that I'm using during races. Also worth noting is that caffeine works on me really well.


I too am a runner (~100 mi/week when not tapering or recovering) and "normally" I limit my caffeine to a double espresso at 5:15am. I take that one to synchronize my sleeping and bowels. However, it's a little more complicated than that because I divide the year into three different major training blocks and what I do varies both by which major block I'm in as well as what I'm doing within that block.

As such, there are trainings where I use extra caffeine for a variety of different purposes, e.g. to get maximum speed to train my body to go faster, or for the mild analgesic effect to counter some discomfort from long distances. Depending on how much extra I take and when, I may have to take the attendant tiredness into account when planning the following day's activities, both physical (more training) and mental (programming).

I believe I benefit from my use of caffeine, but it's tricky. I log all the caffeine I take as well as all the calories, analgesics and alcohol in a text file (which I keep in a public repository in GitHub). I can then look back and try to figure out what's worked well in the past so I can do more of it as well as what has held me back.


Heart rate isn’t a good metric to be iron clad to. It’s far to variable as your stroke volume changes in response to: stimulants, sleep, stress, external heat, blood pressure, body temperature, and time spent running.

For all of the fitness tracking that exists, perceived exertion and relative pace to your max is better.


I've noticed that the psychological effects of caffeine disrupt my ability to pace myself, but I like to use heavy doses when I'm using it at all. I just become so eager/impatient on the drug, it's all go-go-go and my discipline is out the window.

It's great for getting shit done in a sprinty bulldozer, potential wake of destruction kind of mode. But I can't imagine it working well for me in a distance running context where managing my cadence and cardio/breathing is key.


Agree. If I want some energy boost I drink matcha, sencha.. green teas. Looks like it kicks off faster than coffee for me, but depends, for example matcha seems a bit harder for gut when drinking before workout. Some of them could be helpful for fat burning also combined with zone 2 but I am not sure, wasn't reading about this.


It is difficult to determine if researchers are measuring the effect of caffeine itself or the effect of individuals taking caffeine to recover from the effects of caffeine withdrawal. This is a common weakness in studies that show purported benefits to caffeine consumption[1,2,3].

Anecdotally as someone who quit caffeine entirely about a year ago, the effects of caffeine withdrawal seemed to last much longer than the 24 hour period that many studies ask participants to abstain for.

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6213082/

2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6209127/

3. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27649778/


24 hours, seriously? In my experience from quitting caffeine cold turkey many times, caffeine detox takes 2-3 weeks. The first 24 hours is relatively easy, on days 2-3 the headache and extreme lethargy really sets in. The worst clears up in 7-10 days.

I think the only meaningful way to run the study is to compare people who are completely free of caffeine, versus people who are steady state a certain level of caffeine per day. Either two different groups, or the same group separated by a month.

This research assumption is right in line with how society ignores caffeine as a non-drug. When asked what drugs I'm taking, I've told doctors things like "500mg caffeine" and they looked at me like I had two heads. Or my aunt who has trouble sleeping to the point of being prescribed benzos, but still has coffee at 5PM. Apparently it's all just "drinking coffee" and not doing a psychoactive drug, because "drugs" are "bad".


or the effect of individuals taking caffeine to recover from the effects of caffeine withdrawal

After decades of personal experimentation with caffeine, this is my conclusion personally. I get about two weeks of a boost if I go from 0 caffeine consumption to moderate caffeine consumption. After that two week period, I am simply consuming caffeine to feel normal.


One data point: I can drink 3 espressos at midnight, go to bed and fall asleep. Apparently I'm immune to caffeine which is both good (I can have a coffee at any time of the day) and bad (if I'm sleepy and I have to drive a coffee won't wake me up.) Maybe I also won't get any of those exercise performance effects.


I am also like this. And after long periods of high intake iycan quit with no withdrawal. After I was diagnosed (as an adult) with ADHD my doctor told me caffeine doesn't affect people with ADHD the same way.

Edit: I can say that a pre-workout with 300mg made positive differences in a progress plot on a beginning strength program. But there were other things in there too. When I switched to coffee, creatine, beta alanine, and taurine, the effects did not persist.


Caffeine doesn't necessarily stop everyone from sleeping, but it has been shown to still affect sleep quality if you do manage to get to sleep. It also might be that you're falling asleep before the caffeine has a chance to interrupt your sleepiness.

I felt the same way as you and would often have coffee before bed, but since stopping that practice I feel much, much more rested. I stop 6 hours before intending to go to sleep, since that's about the half-life of caffeine in the body. Everyone is probably a little different in their ability to process caffeine, but this has been working for me.


My anecdata: this changed with age. At university I was disappointed that caffeine pills did nothing perceptible; and in my mid-to-late 20s I too could sleep well after multiple late espressos.

Now in my early 40s I feel the effects of coffee more directly (a physiological buzz if I have more than usual in the morning) and falling asleep and probably sleep quality both seem to suffer if I’ve not allowed a sufficient washout period - which now requires most of the afternoon and evening.


What happens if you quit caffeine for a while? Have you tried to measure your tolerance?

I've found that caffeine tolerance is a huge factor in how it affects me, but tolerance changes quickly. A month off of caffeine for me is a complete reset and a few weeks do a lot to drop my tolerance.


I also have a very high tolerance for caffeine. I took 3 months off caffeine, (I just quit cold turkey) then went right back to it. I didn't notice any changes in tolerance, enjoyment, cravings, or anything else. And for reference I normally drink about 8-10 cups a day.


Sometimes I don't have a coffee for weeks or months because it's good but it doesn't have any effect on me. I never had problems at getting asleep in either case.


There is such a thing as a "coffee power nap". I won't go into the science of it, but it basically makes sense to fall asleep after having a cup of coffee (but not at night).

That said, you may fall asleep, but you don't know how the quality and depth of your sleep is affected. You can be sleeping for 10 hours and still wake up wrecked.


Have you been diagnosed with ADHD? Caffeine has a similar affect on one of my children who does have ADHD. Not that we're giving him espressos at midnight, but during the day a caffeinated beverage will slow him down similar to a small booster dose of adhd medication.


I am diagnosed with ADHD and ultra sensitive to caffeine. A can of coke at 8pm and I'm awake till 2am. A cup of homebrew coffee and it's 50/50 if it's gonna make me anxious all day. Definitely jittery and faster heart rate.

Conversely, amphetamine relaxes me, lowers my blood pressure and my pulse rate by 15 bpm. Though I am very aware it would not let me sleep if I tried to.

(I do not mix the two. I was a daily two cup drinker until my diagnosis, now it's a coke zero once a week if any)

YMMV.


Indeed, not everyone with ADHD is going to have the same reaction to caffeine so it may not be the strongest correlation. I did look into it in the past and for a number of people with ADHD it has an opposite effect of what it does for other people.

For those folks, it won't give them a burst of energy unless they drink a lot of coffee and a smaller amount can conversely calm them down. Caffeine works through a separate neurotransmitter process than ADHD meds (it blocks adenosine receptors whereas adhd meds boost dopamine and norepinephrine) which may be helping some people by lowering neuron stressors which incidentally helps relieve ADHD symptoms.


> it won't give them a burst of energy unless they drink a lot of coffee and a smaller amount can conversely calm them down

That might just be addiction? Nicotine relaxes smokers, but because they're in withdrawal when they do not smoke.


I'm afraid that I can't help you with this. ADHD didn't exist or wasn't known as such when I was little. I wasn't like somebody with ADHD tough.


Yeah, it’s crazy how different peoples responses to caffeine are. One cup of tea at 9am will affect my sleep!


have you tried modafinil? might not be the best solution for long drives except if you plan well ahead, like say if you have a late 4h drive after which you will sleep maybe take modafinil 6-7h before the drive so you can actually sleep when it's over


Modafinil might make you smarter too.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16140369/


personally I've tried to use it for work and it's hit or miss, if I have some frustrating bugs I'll be more irritable on modafinil or caffeine because while on them I want to achieve things fast and I'll be more easily irritated if I'm blocked by long running tests or other long periods where it's not clear how to proceed.


There are genes associated with very high levels of caffeine tolerance. Could be that.


I've recently started taking 200mg caffeine pills in the morning instead of coffee. A very cheap and easy way to boost energy in the morning, within about 15 minutes you really want to get out of bed, and no need to walk to the coffee machine. 200 pills are about $5, which is a lot cheaper than coffee.

I'll probably tone down the dose, because it's the equivalent of 3 espressos, which is a bit much. I would normally do a double espresso.


I've used 200mg caffeine pills back in college, exactly for the purpose of waking up in the morning.

For me, the tolerance made the effect go away after a month or two. I could take a caffeine pill, and go back to sleep. I had to start taking two, then three, until one morning I took so many I was basically shaking from caffeine, yet I was still sleepy.

Maybe it was just me, though. Everyone's metabolism is different.


As I understand it the body pretty quickly gets used to caffeine use, then taking your typical amount just gets you to the same level you'd always be if you never had caffeine. I still drink coffee though.


I tend to see caffeine as in the long run mostly be useful to let you choose when you're alert rather than increasing total amount of time I'm alert. That can be useful if you get into a good groove of taking caffeine at the right time relative to when you need/want to be alert, but only if you're also disciplined about not taking it all the time.


I did something similar when I started working at my first job. I came into the office and had two of those pills out of habit. Then kept the jar sitting at my desk.

Just like you, I realised that perhaps it wasn't the best idea since I was just taking them out of habit, and I stopped. It took me a few weeks to return to normal, during which I had the weirdest sleep and eating patterns.


That sounds very unhealthy :) I try to remind myself that these are slightly dangerous things and I should stick to one per day.


Note:

If you drink more than three cups of coffee a day, you may need five to 10 times the amount of vitamin B1 than other people. That’s largely because you’ll excrete more of the nutrient through your kidneys and into your urine.

https://www.sheknows.com/health-and-wellness/articles/808646...


I've thought of doing this before, but ended up sticking with coffee because there seem to be health benefits associated with drinking coffee that are not related to the caffeine itself (because the benefits show up for decaf drinkers too).

But more importantly, I just really enjoy drinking coffee. It's one pleasure in my daily ritual.

edit: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696634/


When I take it, I break a 200mg caffeine pill in 1/2 or 1/3 and take it couple hours apart. Seems to work better that way for me. I try to operate on only 100mg and occasionally take the second 100mg (remaining of the halved pill).

Also I find that eating a good meal with fats before taking caffeine works better for me. Otherwise I feel sleepy after caffeine.

Also, for faster absorption, I put it under my tongue and let it dissolve. That’s the fastest way to see the effects.


I work out 2h/d/365d and used to take 450mg boosters, incl. the usual suspects like Citrullin, β-A, etc. every morning. Went cold turkey and I'm now at a single shot of Espresso pre-workout — and the best shape of my life (mid-40). Sleep and nutrition are key; don't get dependent on whatever supplement you think is necessary.


What do you mean you work out for 2h literally every day?


Common response to a midlife crisis, honestly. I was hit hard by spine injuries in my mid-30s and, frankly, almost ready to end shit if not for my wife and the hope of treatment. Years after recovering from all the surgeries, now in my 40s, I've bounced back hard in the other direction. I take Sundays off, so not literally every day, but I lift 6 days a week for 60-90 minutes, walk for 30-60 minutes every morning and 60-90 minutes every evening, row reasonably hard 3-4 days a week for 20-30 minutes. As far as I understand, the average American spends 3 hours a day watching television, so it's not like we don't have the time. I just don't do that. Plus, I work from home, so I'm not blowing an extra 3 hours a day on commuting and taking a lunch break.

It's now or never. It's not like it'll get easier in my 50s or I'll get another chance in the next life. We've only got this one.


Ya I think that's pretty reasonable, but it sounds to me like you're driven to do that for the benefits and fun, rather than a metric. That's why I was wondering what he meant by working out. Like I probably do 1-2 hours a day if I include everything that is a workout, but I'm not listing "2hrs/365 athlete" in my HN description, and just have a series of athletic hobbies that get me going. I like pushing myself, but not arbitrarily, and I wouldn't want to waste time just ruthlessly persuing a number every day, but everyone needs a hobby.

It's strange to me when people list their stats more than they list the part of the process that's interesting.


It might sound wild but here in Texas getting ready for high school football often includes “two a days” to get in shape at the start of the season. That means a morning and afternoon workout. In total it can be 2 hours or more spent doing the routine (not solid 2 hours lifting or running, but within that time).

I’m revisiting training and going light for now but if I go the PED route again I will definitely go harder and longer because of the recovery advantages from steroids and protein.


Yes


I'm currently experimenting with a low caffeine (no coffee, mostly green/herbal tea) lifestyle after having the stomach flu (no coffee for a week) and thinking it was the perfect time to give it a shot.

My god, I've never been more clear-headed in my life. My working memory seems greatly improved. I'm able to work out complex problems in my head that previously I would struggle to keep my "mental eye" on. Moreover, I'm much less anxious in general and generally much happier.

I think I'm ADHD/anxiety-prone and I think that, while coffee for some with ADHD really helps, the increased anxiety made it difficult for "long, slow" mental processing to occur in my head.

A confounding factor is that I've also recently introduced a green powder in my diet, but the effect of no-coffee has been much more immediate.

I love coffee and never thought I'd be able give it up, but I don't even miss it now...


Mostly the same here, except there's a specific problem around giving up caffeine - a clear reduction in motivation.

As I recall caffeine has an effect of "enhancing" dopamine sensitivity in the brain which is the likely cause of this effect. Could probably reset this over time, but don't really have multiple weeks to wait this out!


> Mostly the same here, except there's a specific problem around giving up caffeine - a clear reduction in motivation.

Haha, I definitely agree with that! Coffee is certainly a great way to get your brain in the mood to do work, any work at all.

One thing that really helps (really the base "pillar" which all health-optimization rests on) is making sure you get good sleep. I aim for 8-9 hours of being in bed per night. I've spent a lot of time working on getting good sleep.


I switched to half-caff coffee and don't personally experience caffeine withdrawal anymore when I go without. I think it weened me off the need.

I still drink it in the morning just because I enjoy it.


Nice, i should try that out. Is half-caff decaf, or is it a third class?


I have no idea, but you can buy coffees that are lower caffeine varieties. Robusta isn’t generally great tasting but generally has a lot of caffeine and is added to blends for this reason (and because it’s cheap).

Trying full strength but low caffeine varieties might be a nice option.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_caffeine_coffee


Thanks!


Folgers makes and sells a “half caff” canister but you can make your own by just 50/50 mixing regular and decaf.


Is the green powder matcha?


No, it's a powder of a bunch of "superfood" greens (mine is "Green Vibrance". I mention this because I did a lot of research to find a reputable brand that isn't pure garbage).

Funny enough, I was actually experimenting with matcha+coffee before going no-coffee. It also greatly improved by mental abilities. This reinforced my thinking that it was the anxiety all along that was causing me to feel mentally cloudy.


A bit unrelated, but I always get sleepy from coffee for some reason.

Even yesterday I was just yawning and almost falling asleep between sets at the gym, even though I drank an espresso right before the workout.

I had a normal 8 hours of sleep that night too, so don't think it has to do with sleep deprivation.

Is this something anyone else has issues with?


Do you have ADHD? I don't know if there's actual evidence whether it's related, but I often hear this from people with ADHD


Coffee makes me alert when I need to sleep and sleepy when I need to stay alert.


I'd say it's a pretty standard caffeine effect.


I mentioned in this other comment that taking a good meal with fats before caffeine prevents me from feeling sleepy:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33018360


I get that from decaf with milk. Also when u re already tired caffeine doesn't work and might make you more tired


Note,

From my ADHD way of controlling my ADHD the ideal way to stack caffeine with other stimulants is to take 70mg or less daily with the ECGC component of green tea in the form of Cacao to get both Caffeine and Theobromine

!. Theobromine is a weaker stimulant that has a lot longer half life than caffeine. 2. ECGC from green tea changes the conformation of the adenosine receptor, i.e. blocks it thus raising dopamine levels.

It's the way I get away with a lower L-DOPA dosage and that higher concentration lasts all day just by taking a tablespoon of cacao and my green tea extract in the morning.


Hmm, did not know that EGCG affects conformation of the adenosine receptor [^1].

To clarify, are you saying you're taking only cacao + EGCG to manage your ADHD? How about 90% Lindt dark chocolate as cacao source? Do you then stack L-DOPA on top of that.

Aside: EGCG counteracts the release of vasopressin (which causes your body to retain liquids), which is used post-MDMA roll to aid urination.

[^1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16733047/


Dude, thanks for this! Been taking 3 blocks of 90% Lindt chocolate with EGCG the past two mornings and totally stopped espresso intake. Thoughts are less erratic, more stable with improved planning capabilities and lots of energy.

Current hypothesis: something in coffee causes or worsens ADHD.

Please share any other nootropic nooledge.


I drink one cup of pour-over coffee that I make every morning. I like it medium to medium strong. I perceive many physical effects from it. At this point it's my morning ritual. 20 minutes in bed or on the sofa reading or doing a crossword while drinking a coffee.

I am also an hobbyist endurance cyclist. I do cycling 'events' that last as long as 12+ hours. And average somewhere between 6-8. While I've tried for years to add caffeine into my nutrition plan for these events. I have only ever had adverse effects.

I seem to manage 6-8 ounces of coke. But in spite of my morning ritual, if I consume any coffee or caffeine infused energy bars or gels I will be miserable. Every time I get weak, shaky, feel like I am going to pass out, and feel absolutely miserable. After about 30-60 minutes, I'll have to suddenly pee. Once I pee I slowly feel better and in another 30 minutes back to normal.

I've talked to a hundred people about this, nobody seems to have the same effect. But it seems as if my body just rejects the caffeine, pees it out, and carries on.


Coke*, one hopes


As a former Ironman distance triathlete anywhere from 11 to 16 hours of completion time, caffiene on race day is a pillar of maintaining both mental and physical sustained exertion.

In Ironman France, which effectively has a Tour De France category 1 climb of 12 miles up a mountain, I got sleepy at the top of the climb, to the point I wanted to take a nap. Yes, you can get sleepy during an ironman.

I has heard 1-2%, 2-4% was greater than I thought. If that is true, no endurance athlete is competitive at the top levels without doing caffeine, so it's almost guaranteed every olympic athlete does caffeine.


Another anecdote: I do a lot of powerlifting with heavy weight for a natural lifter (600+ lb deadlifts). I've noticed caffeine really helps me get through the days of extreme soreness, especially when I've had to wake up early or just generally had a poor night's sleep so my recovery is sub-optimal. I found this out around age 23 and have been pretty much drinking coffee most for the last 7 years. Granted its only 1 or two cups but it works for me.


My life improved when I greatly reduced my caff intake(160->35) and started limiting it to 3 days a week


Wasn't caffeine combined with contact sports linked to some brain damage?

I remember this being a thing going around - the proposed mechanism was that while caffeine helps in general, it constricts brain blood vessels making blows to head more dangerous, since blow to head "spills" stuff from neurons and due to the constriction they take longer to be resupplied. I remember some scientific articles on this but I don't recall if this was conclusive.

It might not be much of a concern for BJJ, where blows to head are relatively rare, but it for sure would be a concern for boxing or MT.


> Wasn't caffeine combined with contact sports linked to some brain damage?

Contact sports and oats will be linked to some brain damage. Contact sports and listening to seagulls in the evening too will lead to brain damage.


I mean that’s true, but it’s still entirely possible that something like caffeine could make it worse.


It’s still entirely possible the seagull thing could make it worse.


being an old bjj black belt (4th degree), I loved to see it here. I'm training bjj/grappling for more than 30 years right now. I'm 40, and started it when I was 10. I did the math and I drink around 6mg-8mg/kg/day. My question is regarding the caffeine tolerance. Should I reset it from time to time? Never did it, but I'm curious if it exists and its necessary or if that's just a myth.

OSS


You can definitely cycle caffeine. If you want to experience that amazing caffeine high.

There is also some guidance that you should give it 3-4 hours after waking to have your first coffee, as it gives your natural cortisol a chance to do it's thing (caffeine supposedly uses similar mechanisms and blocks your cortisol).


doing wrong probably my whole life.. the first coffee, comes always literally 5 minutes after waking up. Wake up, walk to the kitchen, drink water while brewing coffee, start the day, repeat.




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