Just to play devils advocate... I think Oracle has so little goodwill with devs (quite the opposite), that releasing the JS trademark probably won't even move the needle.
I guess my point is that these struggles eventually do reach the leaders and they choose something else. We moved off teradata because of shared service orgs so we'll probably leave this type of oracle at some point too. Either a completely self service option of oracle or an open source one.
I'm a dev at a such a small company, and in a position that I can make or highly influence such decisions. Oracle products will never be in our supply chain because of me - a dev.
I'm gonna bet the managers didn't ask because they knew what the immediate answer would be
Because I doubt Ry would write this article if he was one of the top contributors to GraalJS which is what this graph says:
But a sibling project, Graal-Node.js, does include vendored code from Node.js in order to be compatible with Node.js applications. That's where the commits come from I'd guess.
Guy Steele told me once that Sun registered it with ECMA so they could tell people (governments?) that it was a registered standard and that ECMA was the easiest/fastest/most compliant way to get there.
I’d always thought that ECMA was a weird place to register it.
We're at about the right point in the timeline to start calling it YavaScript which both solves the trademark problem and keeps us on the path laid out in prophesy.
You still get to abbreviate it like JS, use the filename extension ".js", etc.
JS doesn't have to stand for anything. It's just 'JS', pronounced jay-ess.
Well, yes that’s the reason why standards bodies exist :)
Hmm, I see the same was done with Dart…
Like... "C" is a specification, "gcc" is an implementation.
"Python" is a specification, "CPython", "PyPy", ... are implementations.
"ECMAScript" is a specification, "webkit", "spidermonkey", ... are implementations.
Is Python-the-language fully specified now? Of course there are now a lot of PEPs, but I seem to recall (way back then, even before PEP3000 was a thing) that the Python "spec" was largely the "CPython" implementation (incl. bugs and all), and "CPython" was not actually a real name but emerged from a need to distinguish the original Python implementation from "Python-the-language" as well as alternative implementations such as PyPy, JPython/Jython, IronPython...
They might have same features from the perspective of checklist. But path they developed and obtained those features is different, the syntax is different and there are probably also some subtle (if not big) differences in semantics. The similarities in feature list isn't result of 2 language "implementations" getting closer to shared specification, but at least partially looking at what features other programming languages have and then sooner or later developing their own version of those language features. I haven't read the ES4 specification or development discussions for ES6 so I can't tell whether differences are caused by ES6 classes being developed from scratch ignoring how they where described in ES4 or whether classes in actionscript were only very loosely based on the way ES4 described them. Either way the development of two languages at some point forked and further developed somewhat independently.
From what I understand graph is something like this:
ES2 -> ES3
ES3 -> ES5
ES3 -> ES4
ES3 -> AS1
ES4 -> AS2
AS1 -> AS2
AS2 -> AS3
ES4 -> AS3
ES5 -> ES6
Good luck with that :) :) :)
My previous comment with a link to Brendan Eich's explanation:
I don’t think they’ll ever do it though, given the history of oracle
And if you want paid support you ca choose for example OracleJDK, which is otherwise feature-equivalent to OpenJDK (as it is also just a tiny fork), which’s LTS version is free for the next LTS+1 year. This is the same model as Red Hat Linux vs Fedora.
ECMAScript is absolutely the worse name for it.
So anyway have you heard of GraalVM
Just call it JS and invite the community to come up with whatever silly backronym they see fit. Just super? Jihad script? Jelly sandwich? Juniper spirit? Other languages have been doing it for decades, so why not?
Clearly Oracle is not defending the trademark, and it is likely its too late to start. Worst case they pick on you, you change your docs to say Ecmascript.
Frankly it's safer where it is, than being released so the USPO or something can issue it to someone else.
That said, my guess is all they really want is for it to be a zero cost pain in the ass for Microsoft, Apple, Google, etc.
(Yes... You youngsters might think Bezos or Zuck might be gunning for that title, but they got nothing on ol' Larry. He's evil incarnate. There's reasons those other two are always in the news and Ellison is not. Think about it. Pure evil.)
b) Oracle's CEO is Safra Katz and has been for a while now. And pretty sure she has a lot more on her plate to worry about i.e. existential threat of AWS/Azure/GCP than fighting some meaningless lawsuit.
Also there are those rumors, that they have 10 managers per developer, and 50 lawyers per manager.
Who knows, maybe Oracle enjoys suing people?
Let me put it that way, if he was only as shrewd as "needed" he wouldn't be sitting there with billions to his name. Every billionaire is driving a wealth distribution that makes the lives of millions of people worse.
Really the problem is in government for failing to do its job of protecting the public.
How many careers have you supported? How many products did you conceive and design that transformed an industry? How many families were fed and clothed by wages from your companies? I doubt you’ve done as much good for as many people in your whole life as Mo Ibrahim did in a day at the office. Now he’s off working to transform political culture in Africa.
Billionaires become billionaires by setting up systems and collecting rent. That's it. Whether that's good or bad is a different topic.
This crosses the line from "shrewd businessman" into the evil area. What's wonderful is when Larry's buddy Lindsey gets indicted, he's going to sing like a canary, and Ellison is going to finally get his just rewards. (LOL, just kidding. He's a billionaire.)
I was just offering my opinion that there are people on this planet who have caused unspeakable misery not just genocide but industrialised misery. And that throwing around the term evil to apply to a tough and unquestionably unethical businessman devalues it.
Assuming that is true (IANAL), do you want to be on the other end of that lawsuit, wasting your time and money?
>Careful law abiding engineers bend over backwards to avoid its use
..do they really? It never occurred to me but maybe I don't qualify as careful and law abiding.
But that was of course your point.
What other way is there ?
I’m not sure I understand what type of activities are being prevented by the trademark.
The trademark to the name was held by Sun prior to its acquisition by Oracle. The existence of the trademark led to Microsoft calling their reverse engineered implementation of the language "JScript". In order to avoid fragmentation via incompatible implementations Netscape published an official language spec with ECMA, an international standards organization similar to ISO. Because the specification could not use the trademarked name this led to the name "ECMAScript" which the official specifications have used ever since.
If you're wondering why Netscape went with ECMA of all places instead of something more obvious: neither the IETF nor W3C wanted to get involved in programming language specifications at the time and the ISO process took too long but there was a way to fast-track ECMA standards to ISO standards. Remember that this all happened during the peak of the browser war between Netscape and Microsoft, so this was the only thing that mattered at the time.
Thanks for accuracy and completeness in your comment! Beyond the year typo, I wanted to add that the DOM "Level 0" was my work in Netscape 2 at first, and JS-inflected. IE3 added VBScript and by IE4 this made Microsoft's DOM0 aka "DHTML" have a mix of styles: as a superset it reverse engineered what I'd done, while adding VBScript-inflected forms such as document.all(id) -- note round brackets (square could be used too).
The W3C's DOM levels 1-3 used IDL and had more of a Java (or just verbose) style. The HTML5 effort at whatwg.org reunified, consolidated, resolved conflicts, and extended with things like the fetch API.
Thanks again, rare to see someone doing homework instead of repeating hearsay or assumptions on HN!
https://livescript.net/ (But seems inactive judging by GitHub).
Actually a mostly quite nice little toy language. (Only the OOP part seems messed up a little bit; but besides that it looks quite clean).
jaja because we keep copying over node_modules
Quote previously posted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15886728
"...I am going to try to make through this slide without crying..."
"...and by the way not to put too sharp a point on this..."
This is a non-problem for the world. I never heard of this being enforced in any way.
"LiveScript" was a great name, they never should have changed it.