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Dodge Reveals New Charger Daytona EV (carexpert.com.au)
37 points by superchroma on Aug 18, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 77 comments



> The Charger Daytona SRT Concept features what Dodge calls a Fratzonic Chambered Exhaust, an “industry-first BEV exhaust” that can reach 126 dB. That makes it as loud as a Hellcat-powered Dodge.

This feels like a violation of reasonable engineering ethics.


The fixation on it is seriously lame, and it didn't sound that good in the video either. I hope it can be turned off.


You'll likely be able to disconnect it, similar to the pedestrian noisemaker on other EVs.

People buy a car from a place of ego and emotion. That is this feature's purpose. Hopefully it will be regulated away.

https://www.epa.gov/laws-regulations/summary-noise-control-a...

https://noise-ordinances.com/


Pedestrian noisemakers are for safety.


I was not comparing utility, only disconnect ability.


As a pedestrian I would rather be unsafe than to be assaulted literally every day, multiple times a day like I am currently.


The low noise that EVs make, which is usually less than a combustion engine car, is not an assault. You are just angry because it's something new and new things make you uncomfortable because you have to adjust to them.


To you, but to muscle crowd stupid noise is essential.


I'm in the crowd and I would make mine quieter if possible. Stealth strength is cool.


Drag Coefficient of .35 (vs Model 3 of .23) and a whole bunch of extra weight for this crap is likely to result in very poor range.

Why are legacy auto makers wasting time on this sort of stuff?


Do you want people in EVs or not? Because if you make everything look like a Tesla or Taycan, you're not gonna get muscle car meatheads to ditch their V8s. And if you worry about a little extra bit of aero efficiency, every car is going to be the same shape.

I hope you also complain bout the compromised aero in all of these crossover EVs (Model X, and Model S) as well. Because lowering the vehicle back down to car height would also increase their efficiency. But hey, people wanna "sit up high" and nobody ever seems to bitch about how it does literally nothing for you except make an inefficient car with a higher center of gravity.


Also, the charger and challenger start at 32 and 30k respectively, I'd expect the replacement to be in the same price bracket too. This is another important thing for EV adoption, affordable cars.

The concept as introduced is the equivalent of an 80k+ hellcat, not what the bulk of the model sells.


That's a fair point, but to me it's the gimmicky "synthetic engine noise" that makes absolutely no sense. It's a bridge for people stuck in the past on gas cars that helps better map to their mental model of a good car, and will be gone in 10-20 years.


Meatheads will never willingly switch to electric vehicles because they've made it an identity issue. For these people, harming the environment and "owning the libs" is not something they can give up after spending the last however many years making it a part of who they are.

>But hey, people wanna "sit up high" and nobody ever seems to bitch about how it does literally nothing for you except make an inefficient car with a higher center of gravity.

People have bitched on this very forum, within the last month, about how stupid it is that SUVs and giant luxury trucks seem to be the new family vehicle of choice.


I drive a big V8 car (Chrysler 300S), I'd gladly drive a BEV (though I'd prefer hybrid for range reasons on a road trip), but I want something that with all the options I got cost about what my 300 did (45k). I want something where I can opt out of the sunroof and get a metal roof.

I also need to live in a place where I can charge at home, while I'm willing to accept a 45min to 1 hour time line to get a 400 mile range, right now, that'd mean I have to go spend an hour once a week some place and charge, right now thats worth more in my time than the money I'd save. Until someone fixes charging at apartments (not fancy apartments, but the ones normal people live at) there is a limit to the market penetration of BEV's.


What's a fratzon?


[flagged]


Think about what you just said. If an intermittent 126db is assault a hell of a lot of things are. Tons of power tools, heavy equipment, pretty much every motorcycle, etc, etc.

Edit: INB4 somebody implies otherwise I think these loud exhausts are dumb. And you people seem to be ignoring the criminal implications of the word "assualt". Making noise at midnight is rude but far from a violent crime.


Think about what you just said. If an intermittent 126db is assault a hell of a lot of things are.

Yes, and that's why there are regulations in many (most?) municipalities regarding how long, how loud, and when. There is often an actual need for running a backhoe. I'm having trouble coming up with the use case for an EV making noise enough that hearing protection is required.


That's a non sequitur. There are ordinances against jaywalking; that doesn't make jaywalking assault. There are ordinances against drug use; that doesn't make drug use assault. There are ordinances against camping within city limits; that doesn't make camping assault.

The definition of assault is not "something I don't like that has an ordinance against it."

Unpleasant sounds are not assault in any U.S. jurisdiction I'm aware of. Using the term in this conversation is hyperbolic and misleading.


People have been charged with assault for the use of a loudspeaker. If it's loud enough to damage hearing than that's physical harm and thus assault.


Well, the closest thing on Lexis is an attempt at inciting an assault in a prison, by declaring over a loudspeaker that a certain inmate was a snitch. Berkshire v. Moran, 2015 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 110795 (W.D.Mich. 2015).

Which means one of the following: (1) never happened; (2) didn't hold up in court; or (3) the defendant was totally cool with being labeled a violent convict and didn't appeal.


People have been charged with all sorts of dumb stuff over the years. Heck, I'm sure the civil liberties crowd could list off a couple dozen examples of asinine cases that are pending right now. It's beyond disingenuous to act like the exception is the norm.


You can't just switch off the noise of power tools, heavy equipment it's actual sound due to how they work. The Dodge doesn't need the sound to operate.


The intent of using power tools and heavy equipment is not to assault. The intent of a needlessly loud car is to disturb and assault others.


And those are illegal to use between 11PM and 6AM in my city and presumably most others.


If what I'm reading below is true—that this represents an almost-production concept—then this is a very good-looking production car: it takes some design risks and has surface work that's unusually good for a mass-market vehicle.

The aperture through the grill, the dimensionality of the rear lights, the seamlessness of the body and glass, the "weight" of the C pillar.

It feels like someone hot-rodded a Rolls Royce, and I like it.


This car is sexy as hell. I just hope you can see out the back of this one. Changing lanes in the current Charger basically involves hitting your blinker and hoping everyone else gets out of your way.


That is traditional. In the 1970 model Challenger, the B pillars are vast. If you come into a turn at the wrong angle other than 90 degrees, you just can't see oncoming traffic.


Ah! Thanks for the lesson … and always good to see references to design heritage.


Title should be changed to include “concept” which makes this much less significant. Concept electric cars have been happening for ever.


Commentators on the industry suggest it's not likely to change much, and it's not that far out from the target production date.


Pretty sad that instead of using electric drivetrains to make cars more efficient they are being used to make them even bigger, more powerful and less efficient.

And adding noise artificially should be made illegal. I am generally pretty peaceful but sometimes I feel a strong urge to shoot at the idiots who have to go through my street at five in the morning with bikes and cars with open pipes.


This is a concept car, not a production car, from what I can tell.


Seems like weird timing to me, Dodge announced the end of production for the Charger earlier this week. Now this, but not announced as a replacement.


Yeah, they're sending a message.


Challenger is done soon too, I think.


The whole platform is, 300, Charger, Challenger - which is fine, the LX/LD platform is a little long in the tooth. I'm excited to see what the production version looks like.


Next year is the last year for the Challenger.

They're doing a bunch of special models for it with a `Last Call` badge under the hood.

Personally I'm very sad to see them go. It's a car that has a huge following and it feels like Dodge is abandoning its core market with this move.


I am too, a bit, but they did well with it. They made the best consumer version they could with an ICE, period. I'm not sure we could ask for more (except a RHD model ;_;). It's been around for ages, now, too, a very long time for a platform that has been basically consistent since conception.

I don't love the new charger, but it's not a terrible shape. I'm glad it's not a hotwheels car like the Camaro, and it's not a boring family car like the e-Mustang (which deserved a different name).


Yes, this is a concept car, but I believe there will be a VERY similar production car announced soon. Car companies don't make too many zany concepts anymore, they are usually exploring concepts that will be translated to production, with some changes for cost and manufacturability and legal compliance.


> industry-first BEV exhaust

Surely exhaust should be in quotes there. Otherwise what is this exhausting other than sound waves?


Passersby's patience?


Hah! Good one!


Does this mean I can have a "charger charger" in my house?


Dodge sends a scary message by showing-off a concept and stating how their engineers did a fantastic job making cars go fast only 60 years ago.


Are they adding speakers to make that loud sound?


Yes.


Nicely repurposes the long-running "Charger" product line name.


[deleted]


Dodge Charging Charger

Dodge Charged Charger

Dodge Chargeable Charger

Dodge Charger Charger

I know this is a dad joke but it makes me laugh. I am actually excited about this car moving from concept to production.


Most modern ice vehicles have such efficient tuned and quiet exhausts that engine audio is played through the stereo speakers modulated by the accelerator.


My VW has this. I disconnected it because it felt like the alternator pulley had locked up or that I had severe knocking instead of a “roar”



The added sound is a travesty. I totally understand the enthusiast perspective, I enjoy f1 and find the sound of formula E to be grating. However intentionally creating and amplifying sound to the point it is louder than an airplane engine is essentially polluting and should probably be seen as similar to rolling coal by authorities.


I'm not sure about the noise levels but it's the law to add some noise to electric vehicles cause otherwise they're nearly silent and people can't hear them creating a very hazardous environment for pedestrians, bikers, and especially the differently abled (e.g. blind).

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/08/08/what-should-a-...

This is a pretty interesting article about how some of the audial engineers are approaching the issue in one of the recent New Yorkers.


While true, I feel this speaks more to our need to reengineer the whole "car/passenger" dynamic than the need to 126db "electric exhaust".


I'm amazed that something like a passenger car on the street is even allowed to produce 126db regardless of how it does it. I mean I don't really care if it's coming from an ICE, a speaker system, or an air horn, people should have a really good reason to generate that much sound pollution and I can't think of any short of needing it to save a life.

P.S. In the EU at least the legally mandated AVAS is actually a carefully studied sound with a mix of specific frequencies aimed at being clearly distinguishable regardless of age (can be heard by old and young eardrums), has specific attenuation parameters (doesn't travel too far but also doesn't dissipate too close), can be relatively easily pinpointed as a source, works up to a relatively low speed before rolling noises become prevalent, and doesn't go above 75dB(A) (just enough to be audible in city landscapes). It's pretty much the Star Trek Enterprise engine futuristic sound which you'd be hard pressed to find disturbing in any way.


Owners can get away with a lot - but it's a bit surprising that a manufacturer can, but most noise restrictions are local, not in the federal automobile requirements.


The fact that the EV noisemaker law was passed before EVs even accounted for half a percent of vehicles on the road should tell you how well considered and necessary it is. Typical solution in search of a problem. Now you get this bullshit on the wrong end for the effort.


Hmm, they did a bunch of studies before moving forward with creating a framework for the sounds required. The article's fairly decent. Should check it out :-)


Do these studies explain why ICE cars and hybrids and "Neighborhood Electric Vehicles" that are similarly quiet do not have to have noisemakers? Or would you prefer we ask the GM lobbyist to explain it to us?


Lol, I dunno man, you clearly have some sort of viewpoint you're staunchly confident is the way the world works.

I just read the article, electronic vehicles are very quiet, this has been my experience biking around NYC as well.

So they're adding sounds. It's a no brainer.

But sure, whatever cynical take you have on the entire situation is probably fine too.

I'd be fine with them adding sounds to the electric bikes that zoom past me in the bike lane without _ever_ giving me notice that they're coming up on my side. I find it frustrating every time.


Are there any consequences for rolling coal, much less needlessly polluting the environment with extra sound?

Anything short of seizure and scrapping for parts seems insufficient.


I assume if you did it to a cop and they didnt like it something might happen, but I've had it done to me several times and can say confidently: no, there are no consequences.

Edit: There are consequences for shops that modify vehicles: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/environment/washin...

Feels very similar to the whole loud harley davidson thing, where it's supposedly illegal to make them louder, and yet you hear absurdly loud ones all the time.

Paris has also tried automating fines for loud cars: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/paris-try-using-sound-sensors...


Same as drilling the third hole or any other noncompliance with a non-trivial federal law. If you commercially facilitate it the feds will screw you as hard as they can politically justify at that particular time. If you do it as an individual then they'll probably ignore you but if you make it easy for them to bring a case they'll charge you with something that has a lot of prison time and let you settle for big fines.

Edit: Drilling the third hole = colloquial expression for altering a firearm in a manner that violates federal law.


What is drilling the third hole?


I assume the same as the bent paperclip; turning a semi-automatic gun into a fully automatic one. It's mere moments with hand tools.


Some pretty weird people maintain they can stay high forever or open up their brain to various waves by drilling a hole in their skull.

For instance:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/exq9yk/meet-the-man-who-dril...


No, he’s referring to drilling a 3rd hole in the frame of an ar-15 in order to install and auto-sear and convert it to fully automatic.


Ah yes, thank you.


Yes; in the US there is a federal $5000 fine for the types of exhaust modifications that are normally required to make a diesel engine spew that much soot.

The thing I don't get is why the police, always eager to write that $100 speeding ticket, don't see these trucks as a goldmine.


There's the demographic makeup of police officers. I think it's more likely the a cop either owns or is friends with a big diesel truck driver, rather than having a prius at home. These are the same people that cover their stuff in punisher skulls, you know, that famous character that hates and murders cops and completely bucks the rule of law to get his own version of justice.

Maybe, just maybe, we have the wrong people in our police forces.


> don't see these trucks as a goldmine.

Think a few more steps ahead. A few too many instances of "police write $500 ticket to Jose the scrapper who's three owners removed from the one who modified the truck and is just trying to feed his family" is a great way to get the law changed. They'd rather have the law on the books so they can use it in their toolbox of slimy plea-bargain BS than actually enforce it and risk losing it.

There's also institutional inertia at play. When it comes to revenue enforcement police are all about volume vs margin. They have a whole body of case law that makes it easy to just write speeding, rolling stop and DUI tickets and be nearly 100% assured those tickets will result in money for the state or department and the officers themselves are very well trained at writing those tickets properly. So without external political pressure they just keep doing what they're good at.

Equipment violation tickets in most states usually have some sort of "prove u fixed it before the court date" clause that makes writing a $500 equipment violation less lucrative on average than writing 3-5 $100 speeding tickets.

And all this is before you consider the relative availability of speeders to ticket vs coal rolling trucks (many of which can act normal just by changing the tune in software).

TL;DR the juice isn't worth the squeeze.


I was woken up by my neighbors Dodge Charger 11:00 last night. There's a special place in hell for these fuckers.


Agreed. I feel that I will be shooting the bird at this car an awful lot.


> I enjoy f1 and find the sound of formula E to be grating

Agreed. It should be illegal to make electric muscle cars.

If we just had a carbon tax, things would be so much more reasonable.


The majority of high end EVs are muscle cars. Tesla, Lucid, Rivian are all shipping 500-1000HP cars with the drag race times front and center on the marketing page.


dragsters and muscle cars are somewhat disjoint sets.




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