I think we do agree, but we need a solution to the problem. The idea behind socialism is the acceptance that there are some people who are greedy and will go after power, but that we don't reward that greed. The capitalistic system that we have currently set up specifically does reward greed, changing the system would mitigate that. We can't rely on individuals to just not be greedy assholes which is why we should set up a system that prevents those type of people from controlling things. Socialism is true democracy in that the majority generally has the power instead of the few greedy people.
We currently incentivize greed, changing this would mitigate many of the issues.
Set up a system to treat a symptom. Surely the actual problem would be capable of tainting that system as well, wouldn’t it?
The slope is slippery and the cost is great.
No, I’m not offering a solution. To the problem of capitalism, or to any other. But it is hard to get excited about more symptom solving.
Greed comes close, but it is broader. A tyrant doesn’t have to be wealthy. Which is why another “ism” just doesn’t do it for me. Power doesn’t have to be draped in gold. (It just tends to be.)
I wasn't directly referring to wealth when I spoke about greed. People can be greedy for power over others.
If you think the problem is innate to humans, we can't change it without changing humans themselves. At this point that is unrealistic, and we currently have a system that literally rewards greed. It rewards greed not only with money but with power. Political and corporate power systems reward greed, to make any progress that must be changed.
Human progress is incremental, the next best step we can take is to implement mitigations to the innate issues present.
You talk bad about "isms" but present no tangible solution. Quite frankly, that is not helpful. Greed for power has already been identified quite some time ago and systems have been thought up as mitigations to this problem. We need a tangible solution that we can put into place now because we have people suffering at the hands of others currently.
I suggest you read about socialism and how the system is set up to mitigate these problems, as considering your statement about greed being able to taint the system, I don't think you understand how it works.
I need to bookmark your response, it really is the gold standard of “socialism is the answer” responses.
“You have no solution so that’s not helpful.”
I’m not offering you a target so I should be quiet. I’m not providing an alternative so the problem needs no more thought. No value from discussion not about socialism. Check.
“Duh to anything where I agree with you, you simply misunderstood my words and Lenin’s words, and nothing you said is original.” Not looking for common ground. General negation. Check.
“Progress is incremental,” and “we need solutions.” Rolls with shutting down discussion, socialism is the only viable and we have no time to look for alternatives, let’s just do. Check.
“I suggest you read my book. You don’t understand it.” Check and check.
From the above, I have to assume you are only interested in socialism, not the broader problems with the formation and decay of conscious society at a global scale. Let me know if that changes.
Do you really not understand why socialism isn’t working? Why people might fear it could just as easily be corrupted as anything else? Your reply is practically performance art on the subject.
Socialism doesn't work because the CIA loves to stick their nose into other countries at the behest of capital owners, this has also been publicly known for decades.
As I said the problem has been identified long ago, restating the issue doesn't help anything. We need a solution.
How do you even define consciousness of society?what does that even mean? How do you know it even changed?
It also doesn’t work because of the attitudes of those professing it’s values when it comes to the non-believers.
As I said I disagree with the dogma. The problem is not identified. That’s my disagreement. Just a symptom. And treatment of symptoms can be as problematic as the symptoms. Until the cause is addressed it isn’t going away.
It also horrifies me that you suggest we move on from discussion because dead men have already discussed. That sounds awful conservative, tbph. Perhaps I should reread some things.
“How do you even define consciousness of society?”
Excellent question! But why do you phrase it in such a way as to suggest looking into the unknown and asking questions is a waste of time? Again, that sounds oddly the opposite of… progress.
The "nonbelievers" tend to be either the greedy ones themselves or people who have been tricked by the greedy ones, you can see the effect of the propaganda spread by corporate news such as CNN, MSNBC, and Fox.
So you claimed that innate desire for power is the root of the problem, I agreed and clarified, and now you're saying it isn't identified? I can't tell if you're serious or disingenuous. Your statements seem completely disingenuous.
I suggest we move on because we finished with the identification, why would we linger on that after its finished. That's a bullshit move to muddy the waters and prevent progress. That is what reactionary conservatives do
I phrased it in that way because I suspected you had no idea what that actually meant and are just stringing words together for dramatic effect. To have a discussion on a topic we need to have agreed upon definitions, but with the way you waffle back and forth in ambiguity I find it hard to believe you actually want to try.
I’m glad you’re being honest now at least. You’re not very good at hiding disdain. Not the first socialist with that trait. (Far from unique to socialism. It’s pretty common in humans.)
No, the issue isn’t as simple as lust for power. You finished the identification and the solution selection. And now we are to move on. At least to the solution. I’m sure we can breeze by that too, if only you can get this simpleton blow-hard to think, right?
It isn’t simple lust. But again you don’t really want to go down this road, as you keep accusing me of. The world is cleaner when power is bad and people can’t handle it themselves. (Let’s solve that. With… very careful objective power. Yes yes.)
So I’ll make this as clear as I can. If you think identification is complete, I disagree. The comment I linked made that pretty clear, or so I thought.
Your very strong desire to move on has now been stated. As has mine to not simply assume that the elders have solved the problem. Now what?
Feel free to keep tossing bait though. You came just shy of admitting it. So I’ll take it the rest of the way for you.
It really impresses upon me why socialism is the best choice for a harmonious future. Thanks for that.
It’s ok, I’m not expecting an ism zealot to want to seek understanding. That’s a huge part of the larger issue.
But you did manage to provide a fantastic example for me. I appreciate that. From your entering the scene like a MLM stereotype, all the way to that last response. Fantastic, really. More than I hoped for.
That being said, you aren’t legitimately interested in discussion, at least outside of your area of interest, to put it gently, and I really don’t want to upset you any more than I already have. That last comment looked like a struggle for you. Don’t feel like you have to respond.
It’s ok. You missed the several times I pointed out that’s what I’m trying to get at, that it isn’t a solved problem of identification, or even terminology. You almost commented on that as a difficulty. Couldn’t keep from making it negative, but again that’s to be expected.
It is a frustrating problem. Your frustration isn’t unique. There’s not a lot of easy explanations in old books. That would indeed be a comfort. Humans keep seeking it.
Having a change of heart? Or preparing another barb?
It is older than currency. Just more informally at that point, but maybe more explicitly.
So long as you’ve picked an ism to fight, the powerful get to sleep at night.