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[flagged] Bitcoin's miners face vanishing incentives; 19M+ of its 21M max supply are mined
41 points by projectsforlife on June 19, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 16 comments
[As it stands the post is flagged, 45 minutes in -- very likely by a fan or investor in the cryptocurrency who is unable to stomach a conversation about an obvious challenge facing the project. I will try to appeal the flag.]

Bitcoin aims to give people self sovereignty and financial freedom (who otherwise couldn't attain it). That's a noble goal, but the project has always had a fundamental problem:

Bitcoin only survives if enough miners continue to participate, who spend on electricity to keep the network's total hash rate high (enough to fend off a determined foe, including one focusing state-level resources in a short period of time to pull off a 51% attack). Miners do this in exchange for new bitcoin. Though miners' profitability has recently been challenged by the latest downturn, the market can adjust and is not in immediate jeopardy of collapse. But it will be.

The total supply of bitcoin is 21M. Less than 2M remain to be mined in the project's lifetime.

Eventually the # of bitcoins produced per year will be too low to maintain miner incentives. [Every four years moving forward, half as many bitcoins will be produced. The so-called "halvening" has generally been seen by investors as a positive thing, b/c it implies continued scarcity, but they miss the forest for the trees.]

Today, the amount of electricity used to safeguard the bitcoin network is roughly equivalent to what a small country like Argentina consumes. Historically, new bitcoins are created to reward miners who pay for that electricity, but that is increasingly less the case.

Transaction fees would need to increase to pick up the slack (of lower mining profits). Ever-higher transaction fees will kill the cryptocurrency's potential for mass appeal (which companies like Square(Block) have bet big on).

The only way that none of this is an issue is if bitcoin continues increasing in value inexorably. To be fair, I'd say that's Bitcoin's #1 use case so far has been: a speculative vehicle that consistently rises in value. That will inevitably come to an end, if for no other reason than there isn't enough money in the world to sustain its historic rate of climb. It's also dubious for something to be branded as digital gold if it requires more new money coming into the system to be viable, in that respect it's closer to a Ponzi scheme.

Another "out" is if all of the miners can agree to increase the project's total supply, something I imagine will be attempted. That will be a huge shit show though, as the brand of bitcoin revolves entirely around scarcity.

That's the project's basic flaw. I set aside bitcoin's less-existential problems: extreme energy demands, failure to act as an inflationary hedge, disproportionate use by ransomware gangs, potential vulnerability to quantum crypto-breaking computing, and existence in a space rife with scams (from USDT to UST and all the under-regulated web3 banks and securities-sellers in between, like Celsius).

[Old edit, now it can be seen on page 2. It likely tripped HN's "flame-war" alarm, which is really a thing: [Interesting, this hit the front page of HN and was shadowbanned(?). I'm not seeing it as flagged, but now it's nowhere in the top 90 posts. Can someone ping a mod, or @dang?]]

To address the Lightning network (which settles transactions off-chain quickly for less $) > "Transaction fees will have to grow in the coming decades, but if most users stay on the Lightning Network they won't be directly exposed to those fees." If users are shielded from the future transaction fees b/c of Lightning. Ok, well where does the money to safeguard the network come from if mining blocks produces less and less of it (and users don't pay fees b/c of Lightning)?




The block reward has been mostly transaction fees before and will be more and more often with each halvening.

Difficulty adjustment means that Bitcoin’s value doesn’t need to rise for miner’s to continue to be rewarded.


Except without the block rewards the transaction fees will have to go up so miners make the same amount of income. This increase will certainly make BTC less desirable as international wires are still cheaper than btc currently.


Now the miners get are approximately 6BTC as reward and approximately 1BTC as fees. Assuming the reward disappears instantly, the solution is easy. Just reduce the hash rate to 1/7 of the current hash rate.

One possibility is that 6/7 of the miners go away to other coins.

Another possibility is that each miner unplug 6/7 of the machines or use them for another coin.

And there are mixed scenarios.

If the rewards disappears instantly and surprisingly it would be a problem, because if the hash rate is reduced to 1/7 then each block will take like an hour and the confirmation time will be like 6 hours or more.

But if the reward goes down slowly, the reduction of the hash rate will be slow and the time of the blocks will not suffer too much. Also, there is time to increase the fees a little, and improve the ASICs

This will decrease the network security, because it will be cheaper to do a 51% attract, but 1/7 of the current price is still ver expensive. Also a 51% attract can only allow an attempt to double spend, and it must be a huge transaction and only a big exchange would accept it. So they will be more suspicious or try co coordinate a fork after they discover the scam.


The average amount of total tx fees per block in the third week of April was about 0.06 BTC [1], 2 orders of magnitude lower than the 6.25BTC block subsidy. Note that a 51% attacker is free to time their attack to periods of low tx fees. Since then the average has climbed to about 0.15 BTC per block, but that is still a far cry from the 1BTC you claim.

> use them for another coin

There are no other coins that can absorb that much SHA256 hashing power. The best candidate is Bitcoin Cash, whose daily dollar issuance is about 170 times lower [2].

[1] https://www.blockchain.com/charts/transaction-fees

[2] https://www.f2pool.com/coins


The last miner reward will be earned in 2140. It's a 110 year timeline. The miners will not transfers the ASICs to the other chains, the ASIC will be obsolete, broken or something.

But in 2139 the reward will be tiny, so it's better to worry sooner. A reduction from 6BTC to 0.06BTC is /100, that is like 8 halvings, that is like 32 year. Anyway, in 32 years the the current ASICs will be obsolete, broken or something.


Yes, the question is if Bitcoin can survive in 26 years, when the block subsidy will be below 0.05 BTC and its security will be 2 orders of magnitude lower than today, whenever demand for blockspace falls below capacity.


> ... That will inevitably come to an end, if for no other reason than there isn't enough money in the world to sustain its historic rate of climb. ...

The amount of "money" (fiat currency) in the world is potentially infinite. For a preview of what this looks like, have a look at what the Bank of Japan has been doing for the last few decades. In the last few years, Japan has undertaken a bold new experiment: yield curve control. The idea is to set all rates for all treasury durations, by buying every bid that comes in low. Every single one.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/bank-japan-vows-l...

Now, I'm not saying this validates the view of Bitcoin as a store of value. But I am saying that the world's governments can debase their currencies to infinity and beyond if that's what it takes.

This sets up a potentially very meaningful dynamic in the years ahead. Money gets instantiated by governments, distributed to the public, and then dumped into Bitcoin by organizations and individuals eager to avoid debasement and the loss of capital that involves. In that scenario, Bitcoin begins sucking up the world's liquidity. The more that gets produced, the faster Bitcon sucks it up.

Infinite source of fiat currency meets inflexible supply of bitcoin.

Now, I'm not saying this will happen either with any certainty. But it is a possibility. The last 2 years have hinted of what that possible future might look like.


I mean, Bitcoin was the first one. It is interesting in its approach (attempt?) to solving the so-called Byzantine generals problem[0], utilizing a proof-of-work consensus algorithm for security with an issuance mechanism tied to transaction validation. A little bit later, some legendary humans used it to facilitate contraband marketplace operations over the Web. Other crypto-asset systems emerged such as Ethereum, further pushing this currency mechanism model quite a bit further, enhancing the ease of creating tokens on top of the system, and fundamentally enabling programmatic execution of monetary transfers with smart contracts, bits of code that move the money around instead of exclusively having people move an asset around manually. Smart contracts are also interesting but have become widely used and abused, sometimes even exploited by knowledgeable EVM hackers that have automatic the detection and exploitation systems. The move to MEV exploitation and mitigation as a service by operators such as Flashbots has been an interesting evolution in these systems, indicating the dynamic evolution of this space.

I don't believe that Bitcoin will necessary become the de facto Internet money standard. I think it's great, and the price volatility is pretty fun to trade (ask me about bitcoin options trading circa 2017 sometime).

It will probably have value for an arbitrary amount of time depending on regulatory pressures among many other factors but given the rapid pace of innovation in the space, I think other systems can and will become equally or substantially more valuable. I think that the transaction fees are pretty reasonable with Bitcoin, but there are a few other competing systems that I think also show a tremendous amount of promise, such as Algorand or Polkadot. I think the complexity of parachains will eventually need to be reworked for Polkadot, but Algorand in particular has all the flexibility of Ethereum's smart contract mechanisms without the pains of gas fee volatility.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_fault


> Today, the amount of electricity used to safeguard the bitcoin network is roughly equivalent to what a small country like Argentina consumes.

Argentina is #30 among 219 countries on energy consumption, BTC consuming that much energy is crazy. [0] There are 189 countries smaller than Argentina (which is not small at all)

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electrici...


everyone has known this the whole time and chosen to ignore it. Bitcoin is too technologically primitive to be used for anything other than a digital keepsake in a wallet.

It'll probably die out with the generation that discovered it.

Other, more innovative projects will flip it.


[resolved, and disappeared again]


Probably because this isn't a new take, we've all heard the same theory many times before. Right now transaction fees are in the pennies. If the price goes up, maybe they'll become tens of pennies or even dollars--I don't think that's a deal-breaker. You should also take into account the lightning network. Transaction fees will have to grow in the coming decades, but if most users stay on LN they won't be directly exposed to those fees.


There's a contradiction in your reasoning.

Currently the money required to safeguard the bitcoin network is equal to the cost to electrify a small country like Argentina.

You say users can be shielded from the future transaction fees b/c of Lightning. Ok, well where does the money to safeguard come from if mining blocks produces less and less of it -- and users don't pay fees b/c of Lightning?


LN enables economy of scale. Imagine a future where the majority of txs use lightning (L2), and on-chain (L1) txs are much more rare. One L1 tx may cost 1mBTC. Or if you use L2, a node might charge you and 999 other people 0.001mBTC to route your payments (simplifying here). The amount of money hasn't changed, but it's spread out among more people.


It just showed up on the 2nd page for me


[edit: it's now gone again] Thanks, I see it there too now.




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