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Juno skims the cloud tops of Jupiter (nasa.gov)
141 points by lelf on June 4, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 55 comments



In case anybody was wondering "Why is the frame rate so lousy?" the answer is that the probe only has about 325 bits per second of downlink on average.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juno_(spacecraft)


What's the limiting factor on bandwidth constraints for probes like this? Is it the power of the probe? Is it the distance from earth?

I wonder if you could build a mesh network of satellites/probes out farther into the solar system to get better connectivity for projects like this.


The limiting factor is power/distance^2 basically, which determines the signal/noise ratio, which determines the bandwidth.

A mesh network sounds fun, though you'd have to have a fair few probes, as their orbits wouldn't be in sync. Also that far from the sun, solar panela don't cut it and you need nuclear thermal generators, which have a finite lifespan.


Also the power. Juno does not have nuclear power, only solar panels. The Sun is quite dim at Jupiter’s distance.

From wikipedia:

    Power: 14 kW at Earth,435 W at Jupiter
Overall the strangth of the signal coming from a solar powered spacecraft in the outer Solar system should go down with the 4th power of the distance.


Would it be possible to extrapolate frames in between to give one smooth flyover?


Nitpick: you interpolate data between two known points (frames), and extrapolate beyond the first or last known datapoint.


You just blew my mind. Thanks for pointing this out, what seems obvious in hindsight :)


Thanks for the correction


I guess extrapolation is quite simple: just pitch black


Here's an attempt: https://youtu.be/RgvxLEYeb3g


Really cool - if you could also change the shape of the planet it would look even better.


And are there additional images in the probe's storage that will be transferred over the coming... years?


Yes but it will look like there's extrapolated frames. I'm sure you'll see something like that in a YouTube video or something on the Discovery channel but I don't see the point of NASA doing that.


210,000 kilometers per hour. Almost 60km/40mi per second. Amazing speed when you think about it. Wonder if there would be any time dilation noticable if the craft ever gets captured and brought back to earth.


Relativistic effects are measurable with accurate enough clocks in earth satellites (or even just taking a clock to a mountain) and correction is necessary in systems with finicky time requirements like GPS.

Incidentally, the relative speed you can napkin math estimate - an object in orbit flying that close to the planet is going to have escape-velocity-ish speed. It's around 60km/sec for Jupiter.


> taking a clock to a mountain

http://www.leapsecond.com/great2005/tour/


They also did the First Atomic Clock Wristwatch...

http://leapsecond.com/pages/atomic-bill/


Fantastic! Has this been shared on HN before?

> We would come back about 20 ns older compared to her [the wife who stayed behind].

Or, the other way to look at it (since this is relativity after all), is that she would become 20 ns younger than us upon our return. Note to husbands: this could be a useful gift idea for your wife.


It has, in the HN equivalent of the Archean eon

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=598090


By now I think they managed to measure relativistic effects of clocks that are a few milimeters apart in terms of distance from earths gravitational center.


Sufficiently clever experimentalists also pulled this off in about 20 meters in 1959, the clever bit being ditching the clocks entirely:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound%E2%80%93Rebka_experiment


They are noticed in the Parker Solar Probe. At closest approach it get's to 590,000 kilometers per hour (aprox 360,000 mph)

"Parker Solar Probe passing extremely close to the Sun; what relativistic effects will it experience and how large will they be?": https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/348854/parker-so...


It's about 0.01% the speed of light, which is definitely fast enough to have a measurable impact. Even ISS astronauts experience a tiny amount of time dilation (on a millisecond level) and they move at much slower speeds.


As a point of reference, our solar system orbits our galaxy at approximately 4 times that speed at 828 megameters per hour, so 210 megameters per second isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things...


Kilometer is the largest SI-prefixed variation of meter that is commonly used (among physicists that I know). I would rather suggest that you use scientific notation if you do not want to deal with large numbers of kilometers.


We don't stop at millimeters or kilowatt, so there is really no reason to stop at kilometer when megameter is more appropriate.

Scientific notation is also fine, but "210 megameter" is in my opinion easier to read than "2.1 * 10^8 meters", especially for the casual reader.

So while I respectfully make note of your feedback, I strongly disagree and stand by my choice of units. :)


Given how hard it is to convince most Americans to use prefixed metre measurements instead of inches, feet, yards and miles, I think it would be even harder to convince the world that a megametre, picometre, etc is the way to go.

Not that I don't agree (I fully do!), the ease of using multiples of 10 is way easier. But it is very difficult to introduce change to the masses, no matter how sensible it is.

The US is one of the only countries on the planet that still fully stick to the old system. And they're also one of the only countries that spell 'meter' instead of 'metre.' For everyone else in the world, 'meter' is a measuring gauge or tool, and so is everything that rhymes with 'thermometer' except for the American pronunciation of 'kilometre' that too many have adopted up here.

Likewise, adult Canadians still use pounds at the gym and their body weight, and feet/inches for their height. Young people are far more reasonable about measurements these days.

Change is hard, and seems to get really messy when everyone goes in different directions from the start.


As a European born and raised in metric units, all I can do is shake my head and sigh...

... But as we speak about metric measurements I doubt that the US insistence on weird units apply. The average US citizen would presumably be confronted with "mega" and "giga" in their day-to-day lives, and millimeter, micrometer and nanometer are commonly used. Even femtosecond is a common, practical unit that anyone receiving refractive surgery will hear.

Picometer is unpopular because it only makes sense for sub-atomic lengths giving it few practical uses at the current time, not because "pico" is hard to grasp.

Also note that German, Dutch, Danish (my native tongue), Swedish, Norwegian, even Hindi and presumably many others also refer to the unit as "meter", so that particular disagreement is not "the US against the rest of the world".

(All languages have quirks - in Danish, we call a folding ruler in meters an "inch stick", and say the number "53" as "3 and half three's twenties" (skipping the "twenties" part in modern speech). Learn to enjoy the differences rather than hate on them.)


I think you're right, but with a tiny handful of notable exceptions in astrophysics, where gigametres can be a characteristic or upper length scale.

LISA is practically always described as a gigametre-scale observatory.

One example: "LISA, a gigameter-scale space-based gravitational wave observatory, will explore the gravitational wave universe in the band from below 0.1 mHz to above 0.1 Hz." <https://about.cern/news/announcement/physics/cern-colloquium...>, and a trawl through arxiv will show a common association of Gm and LISA.

Assuming LISA is successfully deployed, gigametre may be seen more commonly.

The only other place I've seen Gm scales in common use is in galactic physics, particularly with respect to turbulence and star and planetary nebula formation (stars have ~ Gm diameters; very large stars like VY Canis Majoris have ~ Tm diameters; star systems like ours have gravitationally bound rocky and icy objects at ~ Tm diameters).

1 petameter ~ 0.1 lightyear; 30 petameter ~ 1 parsec, so those are obvious cutoffs for the SI unit of length in astronomy and astrophysics.

Gigaparsecs and (less frequently) gigalightyears are commonly used in physical cosmology (e.g. <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=gigaparsec+site%3Aarxiv.org&ia=web>).

Penultimately, truly long lengths are typically measured in cosmological redshift z, which is unitless (being a ratio \frac{\delta\lambda}{\lambda}, or 1+z = \frac{a_{now}}{a_{then}} where a is the scale factor), leading to such things as a comoving volume (1 + z)^3. For z > 0.2 one would be using Gpc lengths, or in SI units Ym; or when working in these sorts of comological volumes in 2023's Britain, trevigintillions of acre-feet.

Finally, cf. the excellent printable table at <https://arxiv.org/abs/1303.5961>, the leftmost column (redshift) and the r_comov column (megaparsecs) being the most directly relevant.


> 210 megameters per second

Oops, megameters per hour.

210 Mm/s is a very* big deal, with the speed of light being around 299 Mm/s.


Similarly I wonder if there was any detectable heating from kinetic interaction with dust and trace atmosphere. 60 km/sec is fast!


Not sure about the composition of atmosphere at those exact altitudes on Jupiter, but aerodynamic heating was a serious concern during Cassini's close Titan flybys, and that's "just" at ~6.3km/s max. IIRC the closest one was the T-70 at 880km; a lot of work has been done to make sure it won't tumble or overheat. (Titan's low gravity makes its dense atmosphere reach very far, so 880km is really low)


I've read that time moves a tiny bit slower on Earth than it does in space and that it affects satellites. I wonder how much difference there is for something like the Voyagers, which has been in space since the 70's, and us on the ground.


You could calculate it yourself. It would be a good exercise.

Wolfram Alpha could be helpful.


  > 210,000 kilometers per hour. 
that would get you to the moon in about one and a half hours... crazy (cool)


It’s really a shame they didn’t put better imaging equipment on Juno. The argument being that little science would be gained from it. I’d argue secondary effects would have made it worth the weight.


You have to be careful what you ask for - I certainly like pretty pictures myself, but one of the reasons that Juno is so successful as a scientific mission is because it was kept to the barebones and managed scope so aggressively. With Juno ($1B for an outer planets mission) we got Flagship mission-quality science for a New Frontiers price. There's a good interview with Mark Wolverton on Planetary Radio that discusses how this happened.


I don’t know. I hear you and do agree but part of me wonders whether the science learned from Juno is boring and pretty pictures would have been more exciting. Potentially leading to more science missions from newly excited public opinions. I am not qualified to make such judgments so I am hoping the did the right thing.


Basic science is the foundation stone of the past 200 years of human progress - and if anyone out there wants to put "double the science budget just because" on their manifesto they can have my vote.

I am so glad we live in an age where this is possible, and that it is celebrated and respected.

Fantastic.


> Basic science is the foundation stone of the past 200 years of human progress

I agree, but to nitpick IMHO it's a foundation stone. Others are freedom and human rights (including for basic science: speech, to publish your controversial results uninhibited, religion, when your theory is heretical, etc.), rule of law (to protect your investment in your research from powerful people who want to stop or sieze it), and other basics.


Every year when I file my federal taxes, there's the little box to give $3 to fund presidential election campaigns.

I've never checked it.

However, if there was a box to say "Give NASA $20", I'd check it every time.


Those check boxes never have any practical effect, but pols like them because they seem like they might.


How much time elapses in that time-lapse?

Edit: Two hours of real-time Jupiter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPMK_6-QrIg


That's incredible! Is this video actual real-time footage?


What's the definition of a planet's atmosphere edge? Does it just keep on thinning out to a light year and beyond or is there a clear transition?


Bit of both. https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2919/earths-atmosphere-a-multi...

99.99997 percent is below 100km, but the exosphere is considered to go as far as 10k, and maybe further:

> A February 2019 study using data from the NASA/European Space Agency Solar and Heliospheric Observatory (SOHO) spacecraft suggests, however, that the farthest reaches of Earth’s atmosphere — a cloud of hydrogen atoms called the geocorona — may actually extend nearly 391,000 miles (629,300 kilometers) into space, far beyond the orbit of the Moon.


Can someone run this through ML to create a smooth animation?


Why? Just 3D animate it using other imagery from NASA/ESA probes to map to a sphere and then fly the camera over it in what ever fashion you want your pretty pictures. You're confusing scientific data with pretty pictures for the sake of being pretty pictures.


[flagged]


To prevent bots from causing bandwidth costs to be insane?


NASA can land on the moon, but can't make thier own captcha without capitulating to Google's massive takeover of the web?


Why spend tax dollars on making features that can be bought from the private sector?

Now Google's dominance is another story entirely, so one could argue they should use hcaptcha, but making their own one seems like superfluous bureaucracy


I was surprised to hear that. I visit nasa.gov frequently, and I’ve never seen this nonsense.


It is pretty easy to set off if you control your browser much (privacy-enforcing proxies, ad blockers, etc.).

I haven't seen it with NASA, but I'm currently doing something that trips CF's verify-your-humanity bullshit on third party sites a lot. Haven't yet figured out what upsets it.


I think it's privacy.resistFingerprinting. They really want to get your canvas fingerprint to track you.


so that google can be the only crawler that is allowed




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