I have been using CAT phones for a few years. They really are tough, work pretty well with gloves, do not care much about water, etc. Can recommend, and the infrared sensors are worth it just for the wow effect alone :). From the downsides - some of the smaller things break faster than you'd like (e.g. laser meter, or rubber covers for the USB port, or the painted/glued layer on the back in one of the older models). These downsides do not invalidate the main purpose(s) of the device. Also the phones rather quickly fall out of the supported Android version range, but this seems to be a common problem with all Android phones.
I've had several CAT phones. I have two S41 phones right now. Their biggest weakness is the little rubber covers over the ports. Those are the first to go. They need a better solution to that problem. Wireless charging, at least.
Also, I've had two of them bulge from battery expansion, just from leaving them plugged into power most of the time. Battery repair has several week turnaround, which is why I ended up with two of them, one back from repair, unused in its box.
Plus, putting silver in the case rubber to "avoid infection" is just silly.
> Plus, putting silver in the case rubber to "avoid infection" is just silly.
Pattern matching on silver+rubber+infection, I think this might be intended to prevent 'infection' of the rubber (by rubber-eating bacteria). I can't find a citation offhand, though.
My S10e has been in the Gulf of Mexico, several feet down for a few minutes at a time, more times than I can count. I boat and fish extensively, and the phone hitches a ride in my pocket pretty frequently. Two years later, it's still going strong.
DC plus water equals electrocorrosion[1] if the pins are in contact with water. USB 5 Volts is easily enough to corrode most electronics - certainly made a huge mess of one phone I owned that got dunked while charging.
[1] electrocorrosion isn’t used much as a word, but it should be. Google electrolytic corrosion, direct current corrosion, stray current corrosion.
Galvanic is two dissimilar metals, usually with an electrolyte like wet soil or water. One metal will corrode far faster than the other e.g. zinc sacrificial anode will corrode to protect iron.
Corrosion due to electric currents is different. A few Volts in reverse and you could make iron the anode to corrode and protect a zinc cathode (Cathode and Anode depend on current direction, e.g. they swap when charging a battery).
Two parts made of the same metal can be can be corroded with an electrolyte between them, with low AC or DC voltage driving differences.
If you're worried about the wire to the charger itself, I'm sure they've thought of that if the charger is submersible. (Do any of those exist? I'm only finding a splash-resistant one.) And if the charger isn't submersible it'll be outside the bucket and the cable will be fine.
I do see some wireless charging waterproof battery banks. No cable needed for that.
I have an S41 missing its USB cover too, and have always wondered if it's still splash or water proof without it. I did find a picture of a replacement port online, and it looks like that part has a rubber seal which seems promising.
I purchased one a few years back. The lack of range and incredibly low frame rate make it virtually useless for anything more than a few feet away. I think it's meant mostly to upsell to the more expensive handhelds.
Frankly, I'm shocked we haven't seen an alternative in this segment
Yes, and particularly because some of the, hmm, "good" players out there still haven't developed domestic capabilities. I'm talking about Russia.
This is the kind of stuff that should've been completely sanctioned for decades. It's just completely fucked up to find western IR sensors in guided ammunition used against civilians in Ukraine.
Some brief research indicates that the AIM-9X and ASRAAM may both have wider off-boresight and IRCCM compared to the AA-11, with the IR sensor possibly contributing to this.
Decent infrared sensors are actually rather expensive. On top of that, the even better ones are under export controls because Russia is so bad at this game that they cannot manufacture their own sensors, thus banning exports actually makes a difference. Many of the intelligent missiles destroying Ukraine have French or other components in them. Same goes for fire control systems in tanks, or goggles used by infantry or pilots.
I did that, out of curiosity, and I'll summarize what I found in case anybody else is interested:
First, it looks like the very best options for long term support is this guy https://androidenterprisepartners.withgoogle.com/device/#!/F... (Point Mobile PM30) with "Security updates until March 2028". That's 6 years of support, if a little suspicious since it's from a company with a single device on the market.
After that it looks like Samsung offers support for their devices until "February 2027", and one other company, Zebra Technologies, offers support until "March 2027". Going to 2026 adds a few more brands (Motorola, Xiaomi, Google Pixel).
So the bulk of phones have support for 4 years, there's decent options with 5 years of support, a single device with 6 years, and nothing beyond that.
Two data points for contrast:
1. I just bought a 10 year old PC that's still useful, can run the bleeding edge of operating systems, and can be upgraded and repaired easily - I expect it to have another 5 years of useful lifespan ahead of it.
2. The iPhone 6S, released in 2015, is still supported by Apple. That's a 7 year old phone. iOS 13 (released in 2020) dropped support for the iPhone 6/6+ (2014) and 5s (2013) so 6 years and 7 years respectively.
A final note: all of this is about software support - none of this is actually about useful lifespan. Two years ago my phone crapped out on me and I used a friend's old iPhone SE (1st generation, 2016) for a couple months - it was trending hard towards a trash can. The battery lasts about 2 years before it needs replacement, the glass screen breaks easily and aftermarket replacements have touch input issues, and running the latest iOS on it had things moving slower than LA traffic.
My hope is that phones hit / have already hit the end of easy performance advancement, and a focus on longevity might start to take over. But I don't think that's likely. There is pressure from things like large institutional buyers to make generic PCs last long and be endlessly repairable - it's not really clear that pressure exists or CAN exist under capitalism, for phones.
> 2. The iPhone 6S, released in 2015, is still supported by Apple. That's a 7 year old phone. iOS 13 (released in 2020) dropped support for the iPhone 6/6+ (2014) and 5s (2013) so 6 years and 7 years respectively.
If you include years where you get a security update, but not an OS update, as Android device makers do, the 2013 5s got another update at the end of last year.
If you want lifetime software updates, consider GNU/Linux smartphones, Librem 5 and Pinephone. They run mainline Linux, which will receive updates even if the companies behind the smartphones disappear (actually, the second company already doesn't do any development).
I'm going to sound like a negative nancy, but after some casual research I did 6 months ago, I couldn't find any that were reliable as a daily driver cell phone.
For profit companies and strict legal requirements for emergency calls and such have a very good track record so far compared to most reviews I've seen.
Maybe I just don't text much, but SMS and phone calls are generally very important to me in terms of reliability. I've read some reports about one of the main contenders locking up to prevent even 911 calls in certain cases.
I'm sure many of these issues have been addressed, but it's to early for my risk level to use it as a primary device (unless I kept a backup flip phone on me all the time too)
Would absolutely love to be proven wrong though. I want to live in a world where the best software is free and open source, and you can flash it to any device capable of running it.
Tongue in cheek answer, but I would like to see the start of said support before we talk about its longevity. Because resized desktop linux is very far from what ios or android offers both on usability, performance metrics and even more so on security ones (where desktop linux has plenty space to improve as well)
> resized desktop linux is very far from what ios or android offers both on usability, performance metrics
Yes, Android and iOS have 10+ years of development at this point. However, if you compare with their first versions, GNU/Linux on mobile is good enough already.
> and even more so on security ones
It depends on what your threats are. My threats are Google and Apple. Can Android and iOS protect me? Perhaps GrapheneOS can, but longevity is more important to me.
The state of affairs is definitely dark. However the best way to improve this in the current system is to spend money on the phones that promise and deliver long support lifecycles.
> However the best way to improve this in the current system is to spend money on the phones that promise and deliver long support lifecycles.
I think a part of the problem here is the fact that I haven't seen a phone advertise this as a selling point, not once in my life. Where's the RHEL equivalent among smartphones?
Then again, I've only used mainstream Android devices and Symbian back in the day (which was an amazing time for mobile devices, in my opinion).
But that's just my point! Manufacturers are keen to shove their new fancy camera solutions and how thin their devices are and the notches and so on in my face.
Why isn't the same done in regards to the ruggedness (CAT does, other manufacturers have tried with Gorilla Glass at best), battery life (where are the smartphones that will last me a week without being recharged?) or the long support cycles (security updates for the OS, maybe even an unlocked bootloader and open source drivers)?
If i'm not overwhelmed with ads about these things (or at least don't see them advertised as one of the first things about the device), then clearly the manufacturers don't really deem it a priority/a selling point? Who knows...
It's nice to have options, but having to look for these things yourself reminds me of people talking about the year of the Linux desktop, while the majority of people out there don't even know what Linux is.
We are being flooded with 13 in a dozen smartphones and the flagship of 2 years ago is mid end of nowadays. There are Android smartphones which last long, same with smartwatches. They are rare though. User replaceable battery, hardware keyboard, foldable, rugged, thermal camera, open firmware, privacy focused OS, modular hardware. All neat innovations some of which got lost, but they are niches, and combinations of these are tough to be found. As long as the majority cares for other stuff it won't change but I ask you this: what does a Samsung S21 inherently do better than a S22? I think we are done with high specs. At some point smartphones are good enough.
I see discussion of phones supporting N years of updates in reviews pretty often. Android users I know think about it. Selection bias, perhaps, but it seems far from an arcane thing.
That feature seems to be relegated to higher end phones or certain brands though. Lower end stuff is kinda built with the expectation that it doesn't have that requirement. Sucks for sure, and I thought Google/Android was doing a lot of work to avoid blockers for upgrades... but still hasn't seemed to pay off just yet.
>A final note: all of this is about software support - none of this is actually about useful lifespan. Two years ago my phone crapped out on me and I used a friend's old iPhone SE (1st generation, 2016) for a couple months - it was trending hard towards a trash can. The battery lasts about 2 years before it needs replacement, the glass screen breaks easily and aftermarket replacements have touch input issues, and running the latest iOS on it had things moving slower than LA traffic.
The screen doesn't break that easily unless you drop it face down on a sidewalk or accidentally close it in a rat trap (don't ask). Tip for buying screens if they do, get working pulls or buy from a vendor that does high quality refurbs on OEM screens. I've had good luck with the 'premium refurbished' from injuredgadgets, their batteries have held up (even if the battery health % never goes down) as well. Ifixit's aftermarket screen had poor colors and one of my batteries turned into a spicy pillow in about a month of use, so I can only recommend them for guides and tools.
As for speed, I don't use them as a primary anymore but unless your battery is shot and iOS is throttling it, maps and payments don't seem to lag. Data speeds will be unimpressive, it can't aggregate carriers. Otherwise it works fine. For me it's a great utilitarian secondary device, basically the phone that always 'just works'. Absolutely usable, in fact there are use cases where it excels simply because it can be used with wired headphones while plugged into a charger at the same time and I can't think of any other supported device on the market able to do that.
I just looked into this issue over the weekend, since my current phone is now EOL. The newest phones from Google and Samsung just upped their support lifetime from 3 years of software updates[1][2]. Their newer phones now get 3 or 4 years of feature updates, and 5 years of security updates.
Not as impressive as Apple, but it's a welcome improvement. Soon it might actually make sense to buy older Pixel or Galaxy models without worrying about them going EOL just a year or 2 after you get them.
Just recently bought a Samsung A53 5G in part because of the extended update time frame. I was going to get the very similar A33 but it's not available in the US.
The only real lack that jumps to mind is no wireless charging, but it does have a feature I enabled immediately - capping the battery charge to 85%. With that and the updates there's a pretty decent chance that I actually will still be using the same device 4-5 years from now - possibly without the battery replacements needed on my previous phones.
If you want long-time software support on an Android device make sure to get one which is supported by AOSP-derived distributions like LineageOS. As soon as you get the device install LineageOS (or something similar) on the device and you're set (OTA updates and all - I get weekly OTA updates on a Samsung SIII-neo from 2014). Get a relatively popular device to increase the chance of the thing being supported for as long a time as possible.
Well, it’s just, people that care about longevity buy an iPhone.
And the capitalism kind of works there - iPhone is still #1 phone brand, and even rising in marketshare a bit recently. That’s despite being a bit overpriced.
And they are the richest company on Earth, or something on that level.
People do want longevity, but there seems to be something stopping Android manufacturers from that. I don’t know nearly enough about mobile drivers and mobile OS to tell you what.
It seems the main stumbling block is Qualcomm not supporting their chips beyond 4 years, as described by Fairphone here, that tries to push support of their phones to 7-ish years
I never fully understood that. Kernel drivers have to be open source, right? Maybe not mainlined, but the source should be available. So what prevents someone from taking that and then getting it into a shape to be upstreamable? Why exactly is support by qualcomm needed?
I'm not an OEM but I'll hazard a guess: long term hardware support assures that field replacements will match the exact specifications your are expecting. Large scale implementations have historically relied on a reference device to make sure you don't have a thousand different profiles running around.
Combine this with a JIT supply chain, and nobody making phones is going to want to stockpile a bunch of old Qualcomm chips they aren't sure they'll ever need.
I'm not sure if I would define 6-7 years of support as capitalism working. Apple has differentiated themselves by offering more longevity than the competition, but instead of competitive a race to make phones last longer, we've just got a choice between no longevity and a little longevity. This is the devices serving the company that makes them, not the devices serving the people who use them - which is how I define success.
I'm hoping for 15 years of usable life out of this PC. I'm expecting the iPhone I bought in sept 2020 to last me another year, maybe two. Not because Apple drops support, but because carrying something around in your pocket for years is hard on any object - and this one is not built to be repaired.
I’m sure there are physical limitations that come into play, but there’s no doubt in my mind we could do exponentially better with different market forces driving the direction of design. Look at the framework laptop, for an example of progress on longevity in a space where people have expressed similar doubts.
The bit you said about price is, I think, the key. Except I don’t think it’s so much the price as the profit margin. There a millions of people who buy a new $1200 iPhone every 1-2 years - those people could be served by a $2400 iPhone purchased every 2-4 years - but they probably wouldn’t go for that, since one of the things you’re buying when you spend the $1200 is having the new hotness, status, a perception of “luxury” etc.
Which is why I pointed the finger at capitalism in my earlier post. This system rewards what is profitable, not what is good for people + the planet.
The iPhone 1 was pretty much the start of this whole revolution of mobile computing - cut it some slack. We have seen huge improvements in camera, CPU and battery performance since, so I wouldn’t be surprised if an iPhone X would work just fine a decade after, especially that there is hardly any conceivable difference between it running ios vs the newest device and also due to the whole field slowing down in improvements as we are now in the diminishing returns territory.
I don't think this is a comprehensive list. I don't know what the exact requirements are but based on the domain it seems related to Google Enterprise policies.
As a fellow CAT S41 user, I can confirm that the phone is basically invulnerable to dropping, although one of the rubber pads did break off after a couple years of opening and closing it. My compass doesn't work, probably due to exposure to strong magnets. Gps and cellular internet still work perfectly, I can browse modern websites and watch youtube without much trouble. The battery lasts forever. The camera is kinda meh and I regret not getting the variant with a FLIR camera.
If they can make the flip-phone variant hardy enough to play football with I'll definitely buy it. But chances are, my S41 will still be working by then ;)
They have a page about the ruggedness of their products - "built rugged, perfect for construction sites, farms or extreme, outdoor environments"; "Made to military specification (MIL-SPEC 810H) - Drop-proof, dust proof and shockproof"; "[drop] tested onto concrete from up to 1.8m (6ft)"; "waterproof" with Ingress Protection level 8 or 9.
With my Galaxy, I can get a pretty good spiral when I throw it down field, but haven't had any luck so far when I punt it. I suppose I need more practice.
Or if you care about unlocking the bootloader / getting root (at least based on the S60).
Latter was possible but non-trivial, with a good chance of ending up with a brick. IIRC installing a custom OS to get recent security patches never worked (it was abandoned on Android 6).
> Or if you care about unlocking the bootloader / getting root (at least based on the S60).
It would be really cool if in the $CURRENT_YEAR we could finally get unlocked bootloaders for all of our phones and actually own the devices.
But that's unlikely to ever happen with the way how Android and manufacturers treat the OS, much like how the driver situation is nowhere near where *nix is.
Try an Android with LineageOS, it won't suddenly change underneath you unless you tell it to install a new version (full or point release, e.g. 18.1 -> 19). No surveillance, no planned obsolescence, no hassles. The source is there is you want to modify/build your own release. This also makes it possible to extend the life of the device even when LineageOS ceases support.
honestly nowadays I might even recommend graphene over lineage provided your device supports it. It's way better about security, privacy, anonymity and all that jazz
You should care about security updates. For most people, their phone has more very private data than even their laptops. And the attack surface on modern phones is absolutely massive.
This would seriously be a Killer Feature for phones for my parents. Android updates confuse the hell out of them (me, too, when I have to help them out—Google's UI design for their built-in apps is terrible, and they can't help but screw around with it in unhelpful ways every single release)
LTS Android (or iOS) with five+ years of security-only updates would be the perfect phone for them.
Both flip phones are based on AOSP (https://source.android.com/) and we've had to deal with custom implementations of soft keys, and push to talk headsets. Even Kyocera's implementation varies between the ATT version (https://kyoceramobile.com/duraxe-epic/att/) and the Verizon one.
This phone is made by https://bullitt-group.com/ and they very smartly license the CAT brand. We have not worked with them yet, but I'm guessing it would be relatively trivial to support the phone.
Without good soft-key support, these phones are unusable. Any questions, please LMK.
Sincere apologies. I did not reply to this thread for business development purposes, since our customers run stadiums, arenas, campuses, facilities, etc. Would it have been more proper for me to not answer the question?
Appreciate the explanation, and I never intended to reveal my identity. I obviously have way too much scar tissue from dealing with insufficient or non-existent soft-key support, and as a result way overzealous on this issue. Cheers.
Your experience is highly appreciated, I see your post came off in a different light, to answer the question, it could’ve been done in a way that only highlights the specific possible issue and not a straight-up “unusable” label in combination with an obvious plug for your own service
> Without good soft-key support, these phones are unusable.
Depends on what you mean by "good". I worked with PTT for a long time (disclosure: Motorola WAVE), Android devices with HW buttons, wired PTT headsets and buttons, wireless PTT headsets and buttons, you name it. It's a world of pain and _lots_ of edge cases and testing but in the end, there was always a way to beat any device into submission and get it working for most common use-cases. Any questions, LMK :)
I can affirm that beating devices into submission is possible :-) We support iOS too with PTT headsets, Airpods, and other BT headsets and that gets interesting in different ways.
Based on my experience, it seems hardware vendors are not treating soft-keys as a core requirement and are generally bolting support on and in some cases omitting it. It's as if the requirements didn't include third party app support beyond the carriers PTT products that they OEM.
Indeed!
Add to this older Android OS support, Classic BT devices, BT LE devices, combined LE - Classic devices (and each with their own firmware quirks), audio routing, undocumented APIs ..and the list goes on and on. PTT is a wonderful world :)
Just curious why something like Apple doesn't support it out of the box? Is there some sort of regulation that won't let them or just plain ignorance of customers?
I guess we got softcore version where you can ask Siri be kind enough to attempt to send a voice message, which absolutely sucks for unsupported languages.
Apple has been highly supportive of what we're doing. I mentioned Apple because it's difficult in different ways and there are many edge cases; especially with BT & wired headsets.
Our important requirements:
* Android > 10
* fast enough processor
* strong soft-key API/SDK support
* loud speaker
* all day replaceable battery
* retail cost < $250
* mobile device management software (MDM)
* PTT headset support https://kleinelectronics.com/p-o-c-ptt-over-cellular/shop-by...
Google have been delaying reviews of apps that accept keys.
Go on, plug a keyboard (or use a phone with a qwerty keyboard. ha!) and try ctrl+t, or ctrl+w on firefox android to manage tabs...
If you are on any version past 78, it won't work.
I guess google call it bot-enablement-features. or they just really hate people with disabilities. ...it you remove these functions, app reviews fly trhu in comparisson.
thankfully they don't seem to impact keyboards which all still support ctrl+a/c/x/v... the day that is gone i will probably even consider apple.
That video clearly shows the user typing using the number pad. So no worries there. I agree, if that were not possible, that would be a little bit silly. This is a perfect example of why I never trust reviews. People are either just really stupid, or they are fake/ paid for.
I think they meant letters, in the video I only see him typing numbers from the phone keypad. I think they person you replied to is talking about T9/pressing-the-number-X-times-to-get-a-letter type things.
You know after watching a couple of times I realized the chonkyness is partially an optical illusion. The bevel on the top of the screen makes it look like a huge box from the camera angle you bookmarked in your link.
If you look at the screen, the only thing he "types" at that timestamp is one "#", then he presses the screen with his thumb, then a types "##########"
A bit after that he switches to a keyboard called "Kika" which appears to enable typing with the keypad and provides predictions. A bigger objection to this device to me would be the fact that UI animations appear to chug like a freshman at his first kegger and overall it doesn't look to be all that responsive.
It definitely big, but there are some clues in the video that the presenter may be a fairly short person as well. So the fact that it looks huge in his hands may have something to do with his hands and not entirely the phone's fault.
They're wrong, I can do T9 typing with the numbers just fine on mine, and switch to a touchscreen keyboard if I want to also. Just wish it was faster to switch between them.
When Sprint/T-Mobile forced me to get a new flip phone because my Kyocera would no longer be supported, I had to decide between the Alcatel Go Flip, the Cat S22 and a Sonim XP3 Plus. I went with the Sonim and I am very happy with it.
The Alcatel had many bad reviews. The Cat seemed huge and defeated many of purposes I have for having a flip phone in the first place. The Sonim has incredible build quality, no apps, internet works fine. I have no complaints. I haven't tried using Google Maps on it yet, but if that works I will love it even more and ditch my Garmin GPS.
I'm also rocking an XP3 Plus! I bought it around September because I was looking to curb my screen time. I ruled out the S22 for similar reasons.
I find that in rare cases I need to bring my old smart phone with me (traveling, mainly) for things like airline tickets, movies on planes, maps in new areas.
Otherwise day-to-day I am exclusively using the XP3. My screen time is now at an average of <10 min per day, and my battery life is between 5-6 days on average.
Super happy with the experience, and I bought back so much more time and sanity by not staring at my phone for hours per day.
What's your experience with group texting? I've been looking for a dumb-er phone, but I need good group texting support to stay in touch with my family. I've tried phones like the Nokia 3310 and Nokia 225 TA-1282, and have been disappointed in the way they handle group texting.
Group texting works fine for me. It auto converts to MMS and sending/replying works as expected. On my old Kyocera, a group text would seemingly send individual texts in a loop over the recipients, which always seemed broken.
The one maddening thing about texting on my Sonim is the KT9 predictive texting. Short, high-frequency function words such as "am", "of", "the", etc always have way decreased preference compared to larger, less common words that start with those substrings. e.g. If I type "amethyst" just one time, that word will always be preferred over the much more common "am".
This experience matches mine. Never had problems group texting. Also find the predictive text a little frustrating (it's also seemingly impossible to reliably type contractions like "I'm"), but not deal-breaking. I see in another comment here that there's an open source T9 Android keyboard [1] that I may try out...
I'm currently reading Digital Minimalism from Cal Newton and have started preparing for a 30-day digital declutter. So I was really excited to read this title and immediately disappointed after clicking - the Cat phone has a web browser. If you have access to the entirety of the internet in your pocket, it is hard to limit yourself and no little trick or hack is going to actually help - in my experience.
I'll go ahead and take advantage of this post to ask, what do other digital minimalists on HN use for their phone? I'm looking for something with messages, maps, a camera, and WhatsApp with no access to a browser or an app store. The most difficult item on that list is definitely WhatsApp. Unfortunately, if you travel a lot (which I do) it's not really optional. Outside of North America, EVERYTHING happens on WhatsApp. I've started looking into custom Android ROMS but that feels like an extreme step for what must be a common problem?
I never switched to smartphones to not have internet in my pocket, and so I sticked to Sony Ericsson phones. Currently I use a 2010 Sony Ericsson Elm (J10i) which gives me SMS, phone, camera, and a few utilities : calendar, alarms, calculator, flashlight. Dimensions are 110.00 x 45.00 x 14.00 mm, I recharge once every ten days or so
I could be wrong, but I imagine the number of people who need internet access for Maps and WhatsApp but NOT a web-browser would be pretty small.
That said, I could possibly recommend the Nokia 2720 flip, which I've been using it as a secondary phone for work, primarily just for calls and messages. It runs KaiOS and has WhatsApp and Maps installed, although it does also have an internet browser. That said, it's quite clunky to use with the numberpad, and you might be able to hack it to disable or remove it. There's a dedicated KaiOS hacking community which might be able to get you there[0]. Looking briefly, I think there's a hack that allows you to set a proxy for the web browser, so maybe you could set that to something useless?
I commend your efforts, and am curious to read that book you mentioned!
This is actually really helpful. I'd be concerned that deleting the browser would result in other apps breaking but that's probably a risk worth taking.
It’s a full phone, with a web browser, and you can do all the normal phone stuff with it but it’s size dissuades you from doing so. It’s functional to text or Spotify but annoying to spend a lot of time on the web with it. So in a pinch you can but you won’t want to.
I think KaiOS is probably the closest thing that you can find. It will also have a browser, but trust me when I say that on most phones it's so slow and unusable that you won't be tempted to use it often.
I had a similar issue for myself, only my strongly desired application was Spotify (instead of WhatsApp). Ultimately I weaned myself off Spotify through a phone with KaiOS and ultimately I took the plunge on buying the Light Phone II.
It's a real bummer that there are so many limited solutions for things like this. FWIW, the contracted software company that worked on the Light Phone OS put together a blog post detailing how they used Android to build their phone here:
> All of that is to say: when we refer to the LightOS, we are referring to “our custom fork of Android 8.1 that embeds a platform-signed React Native app as the default launcher” (amongst other drivers and low-level customizations).
Which 'useful tools' is going to be pretty personal, not universal, which is why I acknowledged that an intentionally limited device is probably some kind of aesthetic.
It's hilariously tedious to argue that WhatsApp is obviously required and then some other social communication tool is obviously a waste of time.
Not really. There are really broad shared categories. Nearly all social media is a time suck for nearly everybody. Twitter is a time suck for most but a useful tool for many. Messaging apps are a useful tool for most but a time suck for some. Maps is useful for pretty much everyone. You get the drift; there are few universals, but clear distinctions do exist.
> Outside of North America, EVERYTHING happens on WhatsApp.
I've never installed WhatsApp on my phone. If someone wants to communicate with me, it's either a phone call or Telegram. If the ability to converse is less important than installing Telegram, then apparently they didn't really need to talk to me.
For context, I'm a software developer. Other than the Jetbrains IDEs everything on my desktop is open source, and I've got no more than half a dozen apps installed on my Android device. I can almost get away without touching the the phone on weekends, save for the camera.
This phone selling point hides behind the fact that probably most apps won't run well on it :)
i handle corporate phones for a few ONGs. Blackberrys with keyboard are still somewhat supported on android, but even gmail (gmail! the main app from the main company behind android) have bugs that break main functionality (reading email!) because they do not care to test the odd screen size.
one of the largest use bases on tiktok are contractors. My guess is that this phone will be sold as a way to provide a work phone to employees which won't break and won't allow them to waste too much time.
CAT phones (and all cheap/rebranded phones listed as "corporate ready" by google) are already know for that to be honest. They are all behind android release versions even on launch day.
We talk a lot about kids and smartphone addiction but yeah, elderly people go crazy for them too.
My wife’s parents sit on Facebook just scrolling through photos endlessly. They do have other things they get up to, but I think their screen time is easily 3-4 hours per day.
My elderly dad is guilty of too much screen time but he gets my partial endorsement because he’s hacking on Linux and hates the news
None of those are exclusive, or even more common in elderly people than the general population. Let’s not ascribe negatives to people based on any single factor such as age, sex, or race, ok?
That kind of thing happens to me all the time. iOS c. version 6 was a refuge from it, mostly, but they've since added so much more stuff to it (and replaced the home button with a gesture) that I find myself doing things by accident on there all the time, too, now.
It's much worse for my parents, because when they do something by accident (or when some designed-by-assholes program decides it needs to replace your usual screen with some "helpful" full-screen message about an update, on launch or on trying to take an action) it takes them far longer to figure out what's happening and how to undo it. Often they just give up after a while.
“None of those are exclusive, or even more common in elderly people than the general population.”
you’re right, old people are generally just as good with technology as young people. there are no generalizable differences between any groups of humans.
Not just elders. Im 30 and I’ve long thought about buying a phone that is inconvenient enough to use that I don’t build habits around it - but still has mapping software, gig economy apps, and short-term rental apps to get myself out of a bind in the few cases I need those.
This phone is really tempting me. Bonus points that it’s built the way I feel devices should be: rugged. It would go well with my Panasonic Toughbook. Just not super eager to re-enter Google’s ecosystem.
My biggest impediment to downsizing my cell phone: maps and navigation. In my vehicle I need to have at least a moderately sized screen in order to navigate safely. And the device needs to have mobile internet access.
How do folks who are downsizing their cell phones work around this? Do you use a non-phone GPS in your car? Do you keep a larger cell phone around for "when you need it"?
It's a pretty recent version of Android, it probably supports Android Auto. So if you have a newer car or an aftermarket Android Auto device it might be best of both worlds.
Anecdotally I have noticed that Android Auto is not supported properly on these oddball devices. I had a Unihertz Titan for a while and Android Auto refused to work properly and would just show a black screen. Of course with a Pixel phone it works fine.
The thing is, I don't want Android smushed into a less useful, more fustrating to use, form factor. I want a dumbphone that calls, texts, and has a wifi hotpspot.
No battery draining screen, no app store, no navigation... if I need any of that, I can use the hotspot and a tablet/old phone...
The S22 encrypts everything by default just like regular Android these days. And you can still run Signal or just about any other communication app you want.
It looks like fairly weak specs for an Android phone (4x Cortex A53's @ 1.3Ghz & 2GB RAM)[1], but I guess that's not really the point.
On the upside: it supports a lot of LTE bands, including all of the primary bands for Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, & T-Mobile in the US, as well as bands used in many other countries - so if you can get one unlocked it should work on most carriers.
Also, there are some complaints about battery life, but the battery is user-replaceable, so you can just get two and swap them out as needed.
I've been looking to reduce my smartphone usage, and I would be really tempted by this if it weren't limited to T-Mobile. The ability to make a hot spot and run a handful of 2FA apps really seals the deal.
I mentioned this in another comment, but based on [1], it looks like it supports a good range of 2G/3G/4G bands. So if you can find one unlocked, then there's a good change it will work on your carrier of choice.
I don't know how pricing compares to local brands, but T-Mobile is majority-owned by Deutsche Telekom. I imagine this explains a related benefit:
"With our Magenta plans, you get unlimited texting and data in 210+ countries & destinations. No international data-roaming charges. No setup. It just works the minute you arrive."
In the fine print, that page notes that international data is limited to 128kbps (or 256kbps if you're on the top-tier 'MAX' plan).
Phones that are designed for (or sold through) T-Mobile US won't necessarily work on T-Mobile NL, because they operate on different frequency bands, take advantage of different CA combos (combining different frequency bands for better coverage/speed), etc. The phone would likely also be locked to T-Mobile US for a period of time after purchase.
Ok that was not my point and I forgot that the T-Mobile brand existed in some EU countries. But my point was that the phone wasn’t available outside of the US.
I hope this brings back the ear-splitting PA-DURRRP that I heard everywhere in my old job where Nextel (later Sprint, now T-Mobile) cell-phones were basically walkie-talkies. /s
I remember when Nextel PTT was all the rage. I had a job coordinating a bunch of contractors and had to spend all day just being chirped at. I'd be mid-conversation on the landline and then "PA-DURRP Hey man can you text me that customer's address again?"
My first phone with a camera was a Sanyo SCP-8100 and it also had one of those. The "gee whiz" feature was that you could open the camera app, close the phone, and then it would show a live display from the camera on the tiny screen, allowing you to take "selfies" despite only having the single camera.
I would love a reboot of the Samsung Galaxy Folder 2[1]. Worked just like this phone, but looked way better, as it wasn't ruggedized and just a "normal" (well, as normal as a flip-phone can be today) phone.
The promise 13 day standby battery life. Looks like it costs $240 from t-mobile. I'd love to get phone like that for my kids. Not sure it would withstand abuse though.
Would be nice if there would be iPhone like that .
Does anyone know if this has a built in Hotspot? I want a simple flip phone so badly, but in the rare case I need to get online while out of the house, I don't want to have to pay for and carry a separate device/plan.
The original site (https://www.catphones.com/en-us/cat-s22-flip/) is curious in that I can see the technical specs when browsing in Lynx, but not in Chrome or Firefox. I can find the specs enclosed in a <div> but couldn't find a path that would make it visible. Maybe there there is some reason why they want the specs to only be visible on T-Mobile's website?
I have an LG flip phone that I use for testing phone systems. I believe it runs some form of Android. It's mostly okay, but typing messages with the keypad requires much slower input than the flip phones of yesteryear. Otherwise, typing too quickly will miss inputs. The rate is something between half a second to a second every time you press a key
Still runs Android, so it will be obsolete and vulnerable long before any iOS phone.
Plus, it’s Android, so all your personal data and behaviour will be flowing to the mothership in volumes that will give the NSA and CIA some serious chubbies.
And then, it’s Android, so it has an App Store that sees more maliciously exploited and just plain malicious programs in a single year than Apple has had to work with with since theirs first opened.
If you’re gonna put out a traditional flip phone, do your users a favour and make it a non-smart feature phone that can stay dumb, not leak your entire life to an evil company, and is commensurately more difficult to infect with malware due to its dramatically smaller attack surface.
Just once I would love to see a dumb phone built on the same principles that OpenBSD uses. Simple, secure by default, and has nothing that isn’t absolutely needed for essential operations.
I just bought one of these and installed a GSI from phhusson
Unfortunately there are a few things that keep me from daily use with the GSI, notably the lid switch doesn't work without the stock firmware. Less importantly, the front screen also doesn't work, but I can deal with that.
WIP https://github.com/phhusson/treble_experimentations/issues/2...
There is no T9 keyboard on F-Droid that I can find, and everything on the Play store is adware.
Last complaint is that it's thick AF. Yes all the reviews mention it. But it's the same WxL as my iphone SE 2016, and TWICE the thickness.
When I contacted CAT to retrieve the original ROM so I could fix the lid switch issue, I was met with "we do not redistribute ROMs outside of the company". Aside from the usual "You are not GPL compliant if you don't release your kernel now!" style response, this is an asshole move.
I want to like it, I want to use it, we'll see how much resolve I have to fix the aforementioned issues. Does anyone want an unlocked CAT S22 with a GSI installed? ;)
I love how they're like "Oh yeah it's so tough, it can be dropped, dunked and washed regularly using the harshest of chemicals, bleaches and sanitizers."
"It's backed up with our 2 year warranty."
It's a cool looking phone but the warranty is hilariously short for what they claim you can do to it.
Had me excited thinking for it to not be an android phone.
I miss the days when companies made their own operating systems for their phones, with their own OS/Firmware. Using your friends phone which had a completly different set of features really made the expirence fun. Every year I would get a new phone for xmas and it was a whole new expirence.
Every phone was different but now when a new phone is released, it's just a new rectangle with X camera's we don't even need. All running the same bloated OS with less privacy and restrictions on customisability to boot.
It is unlikely to be officially bootloader-unlockable (being a T-Mobile exclusive). But I'm expecting it is a Mediatek SoC, which has known security flaws allowing for bootloader unlocks, so uh, /maybe/.
If by chance it is bootloader-unlockable, GSI (Generic System Image, generic Android custom ROMs) should boot just fine on it. As a reference, GSI work on Coolpad C558 (not flip-phone, but uh bar-phone I guess? not sure if the term still makes sense in the age of smartphones) - it doesn't work great on Coolpad C558 because of the severe lack of RAM, but should be ok on Cat S22.
Some specifics will just probably need a bit of work for PTT button, and mapping long press on "#" to vibrator. Unless you want T9 on it, or to fix random apps's broken DPAD UX, there shouldn't be more than a day of work to be fully usable.
Edit: If someone wants to send me one (in EU), I'd be happy to take a look
The thing I always hated about clamshell phones (I was a flip phone guy.. eg, Ericsson T28/T39) was the duplication of screens. It seemed so silly to need a 2nd screen to be able to see anything while it was closed. That said, for a rugged phone I sort of get it; you protect the fancy inner screen.
I always loved flip vs candybar because of the active answer/termination of the flip function. I guess that doesn't matter so much these days since I never talk on my phone.
This is exciting in general, but I'm sad they went with Android. I certainly understand the practicality of this decision, however. It's not as if building your own OS is feasible for most manufacturers.
As has been well-reported, it's effectively not possible to turn off a lot of the spying built into Android.
That said, I'm still happy this phone exists. While imperfect, it seems like a step closer to phones which are primarily phones, and are made with practical concerns in mind.
I used the CAT B35 all of last year (and some). Loved it. Battery lasted forever. Only pain points were in social scenarios bust most of those are mitigated with planning.
Had an S35 a few years ago, bought it because of the waterproof factor. Worst phone I ever owned.
They dont provide android updates (at least for that model) and would just stop working randomly, I had to hard reset it at least once every 2 days, but sometimes twice in 1 day.
Might have been just my phone though as I knew someone else with the same model and they didn't have that issue.
>The Cat S22 Flip takes the cell phone back to what it should be… a phone. Made for those who want a device as simple to use as it is tough, the Cat S22 Flip features physical buttons and a large touch screen, letting you choose how you interact with it. The Cat S22 Flip’s ‘Snap it to End it’ calling gives you confidence that when it is closed the call is over.
If Apple made a flip phone I’d buy that. The reason I wouldn’t get something like this is just that it’s not in the ecosystem, and not privacy focused.
FaceTime calls on a flip phone would be pretty bad ass, as would getting my usual app notifications.
An example I've seen is a dozen construction workers on a big job site whose phones push-to-talk goes to the speakerphones of everyone on their team. This functionality was big with Nextel phones/service in the early cellular era.
>This functionality was big with Nextel phones/service in the early cellular era.
as one of the fossils who was a subscriber to Nextel, I feel compelled to mention that the Motorola TAC phones were like 30 years earlier; the 'early cellular era' had been underway for some time before Nextel.
I used to work on another ruggedized Android smartphone that focused on large commercial deployments. We focused more on hospitals than industrial. The PTT feature was a big selling feature. It was really popular with nurses communicating with the rest of their team on the floor. Think of it like a walkie talkie you can easily integrate tons of other daily work tasks with. Instead of just talking to your team you could also pull up charts, check emails, etc all on one device. Built into the PTT was also a panic button to sound an alarm for an emergency. It's just a handy flexible tool and from my understanding our customers found different useful ways to apply it to their needs.
If it's like the extra button on my phone (Cat S61) you should be able to set it up to do whatever you like. I have mine set to toggle the flashlight on long press which is super convenient.
Protective cover? Isn't the screen exposed in a candybar slider when closed? This is meant to be a jobsite phone so being fully closed is probably a pro.
T9 users from back in the day would like a word with you... assuming this has T9 or something similar.
Personally, I used to be able to type with greater accuracy and speed with T9 than any touchscreen typing or swiping around today. After you develop the muscle memory, it's lightning fast.
Highly recommend a regular feature phone or a KaiOS phone; the latter still has useful apps, the former doesn't. You can still keep your old smartphone with wifi if something requires a real smartphone, and a bunch of feature phones have a hotspot mode.
My biggest problem is I have to keep my smartphone stowed away somewhere or I just use it instead of the feature phone.
Any recommendations for a feature/kaios phone with a good camera, maps, music streaminf, signal, and yelp or similar? (Without google spyware or a web browser).
I used a Nokia 2720 running KaiOS. It has a Google Maps webapp installed that works well enough - it's not blazing fast, but lets you search with voice or T9 input. It was enough for me.
No Signal or Spotify, but you can transfer songs via USB. Camera is OK for small snapshots of things you want to remember or send via MMS, but nothing more - not good for landscapes or people.
You can root the phone and then you should be able to remove the browser (0). The b-hackers store (1) is a good place to find apps to sideload (there's a Telegram app, for example).
People bag on Apple for making their phones thinner instead of increasing battery life. But perhaps as a constrained resource it keeps civilization running instead of grinding to a halt.
The current mobile software ecosystem makes me so angry. We could truly have flip phones if only whatsapp, imessage, and whatever else were open protocols.
Just program a simplified client that sips battery and is optimized for number keys and I would be golden.
Instead if you want to have the privilege of sending text messages you have to pack a whole android distribution to install some bloated unoptimized app
Matrix offers bridges to a large number of messaging services (WhatsApp & iMessage included). I don’t know why it hasn’t become more popular. https://matrix.org/bridges/
I know about matrix bridges, but I'm sorry to say they're a pipe dream.
First of all I would have to manage them myself, which is a pain and costs money.
Secondly, anything could break at any time: the vps provider, the domain provider, the matrix server, the bridges themselves could go unmaintained or suddenly not be compatible anymore.
It's truly a flaky hack, and in truth you shouldn't need a flaky hack to send a photo to your uncle using whatsapp
There's matrix-docker-ansible-deploy (1), an Ansible Playbook that makes setting up a Matrix homeserver and bridges easier. But it's still a pain, like you said. I ran one for a while (with bridges for Skype, Instagram DM, etc), but decided it was too much work and deleted it.
It needs you to run the bridge on either a mac or a jailbroken iphone.
Connecting matrix to non-open ecosystems is a bit hit-and-miss in that it often requires you to run bridges in special ways and there are sometimes ways it breaks unexpectedly. I expect that to improve if the EU passes its law to force more interoperability.
And dropbox is just rsync with extra whistles, right?
I don't think that modern messaging apps could be trivialized to just "sending text messages". And even if you in particular don't use all the other features, all the other people who create network effects do.
I don't understand your reply. Are you implying that Dropbox is so advanced that it couldn't be implemented on a simpler device? Are you seriously telling me you need Android to send encrypted blobs over the internet?
I feel like most people that want flip phones want something reliable and durable. I don't think shoving Android onto a tiny screen in a flip form factor accomplishes this.
Not what I want in a flip phone at all. If I ever do make the switch to a flip phone it'll be to get away from all of the smart phone features. So that means no Android or iOS, just a basic feature phone "OS". Call and text only, no internet.
