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Amen. The "me too" culture that's going on w/r/t Dart is really disappointing.

Google: "Hey everyone, let's make the browser better by switching to something that smells less like garbage than javascript."

Community: "You forgot a semi-colon!"


Sorry but it's been more like

Google: Hey everyone, we have decided the future, here it is, get used to it.

Community: Maybe you should get behind Harmony instead of secretly building replacements to the building blocks of the web and issuing them by imperial decree.

There was an internal memo. They're going to push it. Why do you have to "buck the man" in order to feel like you're in control of your tools? Why does it need to be repeated that everyone has a choice?

If Dart grows and solves some of the junk I have to deal with in the JS ecosystem, I will use it. We'd all be fools not to.

Wouldn't happen to be a Flash dev would you?

I do not want the core technologies on which the web is built owned or controlled by any one company. No matter how you look at it Dart is not a standard, it's not controlled or directed by any open body and its development is not public.

It took a goddamn decade to break Microsoft's endless attempts to own core web technology, if you're happy with another company doing it just because you think they're a 'nice' company you're the fool.

There is a large, public and active effort to solve many of the issues JS has, it's called Harmony. Maybe you should get involved with that instead of jumping on a proprietary bandwagon.

"Dart is not a standard, it's not controlled or directed by any open body"

You say that like it is a bad thing. I don't think it is.

Standardizing technologies is great once they are mature and are already accepted as the obvious de-facto standard, but trying to push real change through standards bodies results in exactly the sort of morass that JavaScript has been stuck in and which makes Dart a refreshing attempt at change.

Yeah, yeah, the great new version of JavaScript will be here next year, same as it has been going to be here next year for the past 10 years.

When it comes to making real progress you almost always need to buck the standards and drag the world kicking and screaming into a better future and then let the standards bodies figure out how to fit things in to their world later on. I'm continually shocked there are so many people in this industry that don't see this even though the proof for it is everywhere.

I'm not sure Dart really is the better future we need in a client-side language as there is still a ton more work to be done (the technology is far less baked than I expected it would be, even though it is only a preview release), but I applaud Google for trying and I'd suggest other players trying to sabotage their efforts should redirect their own efforts into something even better than Dart. Win on the merits of the technology, not on slavish devotion to existing standards. With increased competition everybody wins, especially if everyone uses an OSS model as permissive as Google is with Dart, and maintains JavaScript as a legacy lingua franca.

> exactly the sort of morass that JavaScript has been > stuck in

You mean the one where some large corporations are doing what they can to keep it from improving?

Seriously, Google has been sabotaging all sorts of JavaScript improvements by flat-out refusing to implement them.

So in fact the "other players" _are_ directing their effort to something they perceive as better than Dart: Harmony.

As for the rest, what will "win" is not necessarily going to be based on the merits of the technology but on the strength of single-vendor tie-ins, in the usual way....

JavaScript was stuck in the mud before Chrome or V8 even existed. Before Google, Microsoft and Yahoo got the blame.

Regardless of who the actors are that are most currently gumming up the works, all of this just proves the point that standard bodies are not an effective tool for actually creating useful technology.

There was all sort of innovation in JavaScript going on at the time; still is.

As you note, getting the innovation into a standard is the hard part, when some of the parties to the standards process don't actually want the language to improve...

But Google claiming this is a problem for JavaScript while it is one of those exact parties is just hypocritical.

Mozilla has been implementing new ES Harmony features for a while. Proxies work now. Strict mode works now. Let, const, destructuring assignment, generators, they all work now. V8 hasn't gotten around to implementing a lot of that stuff, but that's its problem.

This was explicitly announced as "work in progress", "please give us feedback", "this is the first impression" and so forth. If you read the language spec, it has "we don't know how to do this yet" and "we're requesting feedback on this" all over the place.

I really fail to see the imperial decree part here. In any case, JavaScript is there, it's supported by Google (and really only has been made viable by the speed improvements triggered by V8's development), it's not like anyone is taking anything away.

I think you overestimate the impact of V8 on JavaScript speed improvements. Both Apple and Mozilla were working on JITs well before V8 was announced...

> Community: "You forgot a semi-colon!"

The user is king. If Google doesn't give a shit about dart's users - ie programmers - then why should we care?

mate, it's not all that bad. people's reactions here will have pretty close to zero impact on the long term success or otherwise of Dart; programming languages are still much of a meritocracy

that said, wading in and telling people the things they like smell like garbage isn't the most effective way of getting them onside. If you're going to do that, then what you're selling better darn well blow their socks off, and Dart isn't doing that.

personally, I really enjoy writing js (and I have a growing love for coffeescript as well) and I don't feel Dart offers anything I need yet. I'll wait and see what happens

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