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I resonate with Zack's rant, we have apparently chewed much of the same bugs.

A quick answer to your @singular's questions: 1) Existing code - this trumps writing everything from scratch. 2) I don't agree, I believe the compuation is straightforward, my belief is that what you perceive as 'progress' is mostly just 'go really really fast.' I showed a Microsoft engineer at the Vintage computer festival installing an RDBMS on VMS while four people were playing games and exploring VMS on four terminals connected to the machine, then I fired up and ran the test code to show the code had installed and was usable. It did not impress him that I didn't reboot the system once, nor did the other four people using the system notice I had installed a new capability that was available to everyone using the OS. Those are not design goals of a 'personal' OS like Windos/DOS/NT, although they could be. The stuff you learn in CS classes about architecture and layers and models and invariants, can make for very robust systems.

3. My experience is that programmers program. Which is to say that they feel more productive when they produce 10,000 lines of code than when they delete 500 lines of code and re-organize another 500 lines. Unlike more 'physical goods' types of industries it is easier to push that stuff out into production. So more of it ends up in production.

4. Not sure where this was going.

5. This is something I like to believe in too, its just code, so write new code. Hey Linus did it right? The challenge is that it will take 4 - 5 years for one person to get to the point where they can do 'useful' stuff. That is a lonely time. I wrote the moral equivalent of ChromeOS (although using eCos as the underlying task scheduler and some of the original Java VM as the UI implementation.) Fun to write but not something picked up by anyone. You get tired.

6. I'd take a look at eCos here, one of the cool things about that project was a tool (ecosconfig) which helped keep leaks from developing.

In the 'hard' world (say Civil Engineering) there are liability laws that provide a corrective force. In software it is so easy to just get something put togehter that kinda works, that unless you are more interested in the writing than the result, you may find that you're spending less time on structure and more on results.




1 - I agree that's a huge, massively important thing, but there are non-x86 processors in the world which find their niche (in ARM's case it's quite a huge niche), so surely if it is possible to develop a processor which is so much better than x86 then why don't they already exist? I am hardly very well informed on the processor market, so for all I know they do, though I'd be surprised.

2. Sure, I guess what I'm getting at is that we've done amazing things with what we've got, I'm by no means suggesting we shouldn't take a broader view and replace crap, or at least work towards it where market entrenchment makes things difficult. The point is, again, that if there exists such a plausible alternative to the Von Neumann architecture, then why aren't there machines out there taking advantage? Again you could probably fill a niche this way. I suppose, in answer to my own question here, that you would be fighting a losing battle against the rest of the hardware out there being reliant on V-N but still, I'd have assumed that something would exist :)

3. Yeah. But it's hard + often the harder path to do things right in any industry. Such is life, not that that excuses anything.

4. A sort of philosophical point. Feel free to ignore :-).

5. There is stuff out there that already exists too though. Go, OCaml, Haskell, F# are all really interesting languages which in their own ways tackle a lot of the accidental complexity problems out there. Plan 9 + inferno are very interesting OSes, though they are probably a little too niche to be all that useful in the real world. But yeah, understandable, fighting the tide is difficult.

6. Cool will take a look.

Yeah - one of the things that attracts me to software engineering is the relative freedom you get to be fully creative in solving a problem. However that cuts both ways it seems.

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so surely if it is possible to develop a processor which is so much better than x86 then why don't they already exist?

Suppose I invented a new chip that was awesome for gaming, spreadsheets, word processing, databases and power consumption.

Who would build PCs with it?

What OS would it run if someone built it?

Who would buy that?

Its not merely a "huge, massively important thing". Its the only thing.

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Intel & HP tried this with the Itanium. A decade (or two) and billions of dollars later and x86 or at least x64 is still king.

No doubt they made some mistakes, but it wasn't for lack of trying.

(And having debugged code on an ia64 I'm quite happy with the status quo!)

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Yes, and it was hilarious. It stunned me that Intel couldn't figure out that AMD was going to eat their lunch when they figured out a way to extend the x86 architecture to 64 bits while retaining software portability. For years Intel had beaten challenger after challenger based on the juggernaut of their software base (680x0, MIPS, NS32032, SPARC, PowerPC, Etc) and yet their brash attempt to push Itanium by not extending x86 was counter to all those previous victories. Kind of like a general taking a battle plan known to work and ignoring it.

As we move into an era of 'I don't see why I should get a new machine' of growth minimization there is a window for folks like ARM to get in with 'all day computing.' But it will take someone extraordinary to make that happen. Look at the state of Linux on ARM to understand the power of a legacy architecture.

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> I don't agree, I believe the compuation is straightforward

That is, until you do them in parallel...

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