Now it's time for me to live by these words. Last week, I went to Poland to help my 68 year old mother in law evacuate from Kyiv and cross over the Atlantic to safety. She saw the airport burn from her window. You can read her story here [1].
Today, I'm renewing my Ukrainian passport.
Hackernews, I know not everyone here will be comfortable sending money for weapons.
The person that helped organize this left his university position in the US to go back to Kyiv days before the war started. He's there now. The war is not abstract to him.
To help the army with military supplies (first aid kits, bulletproof vests, etc) — but not weapons — donate here: https://www.comebackalive.in.ua/
Is there any point of making these donations seeing so many billions are being sent by nation states? Is there a bottleneck where the Ukrainian Armed Forces need first aid kits but are unable to get them because of a lack of funds? I've thought about donating to these sorts of organisations but I question the actual efficiencies of doing so.
Edit: I also worry that funding the continuation of this war will increase the probabilities of a nuclear war, so I'm unsure from that perspective too.
Yes, because funds are often earmarked, and it is the smaller organizations on the ground that are able to meet the needs of the people in their communities.
It's the same reason that food pantries and organizations like Meals on Wheels are important despite the existence of SNAP and Social Security. Those organizations work directly with communities at a low-level to meet the needs that aren't met by high-level programs and funding.
Not sure where you are from, but even the "mighty USofA military" could not supply its troops during the scurmishes this century. Many care packages from military parents were shipping things like bullet proof jackets etc. Some military personal were even purchasing armor for their humvees and other gear out of their own pockets.
Militaries the world over are their own hell of bureaucracy
You're using temporary stories to stretch to an extrapolation that it was a longer-term context, when it wasn't. The US ramped up its armoring of humvees, built and supplied vast numbers of entirely new highly armored vehicles, and ramped up its supply of vests for soldiers.
The US could supply its own troops and did. It wasn't lacking capability or funding to do so. It's borderline silly to try to compare the Ukraine situation with the US situation. They're not similar.
I recall helping my friend's parents in 2008 because they were running an annual fundraiser to buy equipment for troops deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan. It started when they had to buy bullet proof vests for him for his first deployment (I dont recall the year, probably 2002 or 2004).
Now, that isn't to say their situation with Ukraine is the same, but it does demonstrate that even small donations can help in times of need.
No, that's not what I'm doing. I'm suggesting that there are times when it is faster to go through side channels vs red tape offical channels type of thing.
You're reading too much into my comment in a very disingenious manner.
It wasn’t a case of not enough resources it was a case of too much of some and too little of others.
Up armored vehicles are great, but if your mission is patrolling goat paths you need good boots. If you need a set of good boots ASAP, having a bunch of up armored trucks won’t help you.
Just because you have the budget doesn’t mean that it was spent in the right places every time.
we formed a small group here that gathered clothes and medical supplies from within our city, we got a lot of donated clothes and medical equipment, we aren't rich any means, so we are actively looking for people to help us with cars and vans or allowing us to use free space in their warehouses.
if you can, find some local communities that are actively gathering clothes and medical supplies. there are plenty of them, they need cars to take rounds or a garage to store equipment or vans to move things around. this will be more helpful than money and as these are directly connected to families there, your work and time will have a lot more direct impact.
The world bank isn't funding the Ukrainian Army no, but it's giving 3/4 of a Billion dollars for other costs. My point is that donations pale in comparison to these state actors and I don't believe that Ukraine will lose this war because of a lack of a few million dollars. This money could have a much larger impact directed to other conflicts around the world, for example. Maybe I'm wrong and happy to be persuaded!
As a non-military option, donate to UNHCR's Ukraine program. I no longer can do that for now (Russian plastic doesn't work), but I will if this persists when I sort out my banking situation.
There are plenty of Russians on Youtube commenting under pleas posted by Ukrainians asking them to help stop the war. And there are plenty of videos taken by people on the ground in Ukraine that show what's going on.
Lots of Russians actually believe that the strikes are precision and only aimed at the military targets. There's a video recorded by a woman in Mykolaiv walking among the rubble and cursing at her Russian relatives for not believing her while her city is literally under shelling.
But due to the way Youtube works, the Russian users are not very likely to come across those videos. Ukrainian Youtube users are trying to interact with them by replying with links to the videos.
If somebody from Youtube is reading this, I understand that you need to curb spammers who post a lot. But if you could somehow help with this effort, it might actually help change the public opinion in Russia. Maybe figure out a way to let the Ukrainians interact with the Russian commenters without getting shadowbanned?
>Lots of Russians actually believe that the strikes are precision
(Speaking as a Russian who was in similar situation back in 198x in USSR) Russians have lost all mental critical thinking capacity when it comes to government propaganda, and the propaganda makers know and use it. For example about precision strikes - the official Russian TV made a glorifying report https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrekdY2FgD0 on such a strike carried out by a plane loaded only with unguided bombs (FAB-250, 500lbs) calling them "missiles of point-precision" and showing a video of supposed launch of a ground attack missile from that plane. That despite majority of the men in Russia being pretty familiar with weaponry/etc. and able to see the lie if they wanted to, yet they don't. Government can tell these days anything and Russian population just goes with it.
Two decades of TV saying one thing today, and the opposite thing the other day, while the internet offers a thousand mutually incompatible (and often, self-contradicting) accounts for any event worth talking about have annihilated people's ability to believe that truth exists.
To them, everyone lies, everything is a lie. Putin, in comparison, is therefore honest - because he doesn't pretend he's not lying!
Only fools believe. The smart people know that everyone lies. The game is to stick with the better lie.
And what lie can be better than the one that makes you feel good and makes "the other side" furious? A grain of truth, a barrel of bullshit, and a complete detachment from reality - and you have the lie du jour.
Putin isn't convincing people to believe in what he says. He just offers them better lies.
You wrote: <<Lots of Russians actually believe that the strikes are precision and only aimed at the military targets.>>
Thank you for saying it out loud.
To be fair, I think you can safely replace "Russians" with many other people. Certainly, US media loves the term "precision strikes". They are nonsense. I also once believed in them.
As a thought experiment, imagine a bus stop is bombed with precision guided bombs (or a missile if you like). Imagine that bus stop is in the same neighborhood as your office or home. Imagine that you walk or drive past it daily. Imagine that a "precision strike" took out someone very bad. How would you feel, walking past a huge hole in the ground where the bus stop once stood? You would never again feel safe in that place. Everyday that you pass the hole in the ground, you would think to yourself: "What if I was standing at the same bus stop on that day?" This is my point about "precision strikes". The term ignores the impact on real humans who live near those places.
Good point about public perception. But there's a deeper problem with this: people _want_ to believe it is a justified and necessary act of violence. And this is really hard to change now. Too many years many of us/them were passively silent and now it is almost too late to take an action.
>people _want_ to believe it is a justified and necessary act of violence.
Well of course, because otherwise, the guilt and shame is too overwhelming.
Sadly, shame is the first casualty of the War on Truth.
And without shame, there is no truth, because one can just say whatever makes one feel good at the moment. Do it long enough, you might even believe what you say.
There are family ties between the countries and that may affect whatever level of violence they think is justified. Especially when they see apartment blocks being bombed into oblivion that look just like the one their niece lives in (and they have personally visited).
I've been thinking about how to get through to more Russian people, and its something I've had a lot of success doing with many people that live in an alternate reality, where we cannot even agree on perception.
Censorship and speech restrictions aside, many Russians really think this is a peacekeeping mission that has no bloodshed. Adding to frustration of Ukrainian residents calling their own family members in Russia about whats going on, and still get denial in response.
One thing I've been thinking about doing is... agreeing with them? Call it a "special military operation", and then tell them it's not working. The world is reacting to the special military operation. The timing of the special military operation is not in Russia's favor and its causing more harm than benefit, in both Russia and in Ukraine.
The semantics are designed to derail the conversation at the beginning. "Ah we're being bombed indiscriminately in this war of russian aggression", the Russian's immediate reaction is "wait, no that's CGI, that's the Ukrainians bombing themselves, its exactly why you need help", instead just play along! "Everything's A-OK but you still need ...... to dismantle your leadership for failing to get more allies in this operation or putting it off until more support was achieved."
After 2011 protests, even before Crimea and this war, I already gave up talking politics with my parents because of unfair difference in amount of exposure: you spend maybe 30 minutes per week dismantling the nonsense in their heads, then the TV spends 6+ hours per week refilling the vessel back full.
Propaganda's arguments are not holding because they are credible, in my experience they are easy and take under 3-5 exchanges until the person wiggles and tries to change the topic. Propaganda is holding because quantity beats quality, and in this case by a lot. Real people eventually give up while full-time paid astroturfers stay.
But even now, when talking to my parents, one snarky question is often enough to break the confidence. I can't emphasize the word question enough, people never start thinking unless they are asked a question. No need for any lectures, proof links, it does not even have to be a particularly smart question, if you just get them thinking they do all the bullshit-clearing job themselves. That is, until they turn on TV again :(
I'm not gonna pretend that I understand how things work, but I have a strong feeling the key is exposure and asking questions, rather than better rhetorics.
Along with questions I also pile on absurdities - I take their reality and add more to how it should work - that make them have to explain the canon
For example, to flat earthers I would say “gravity works because of the 6 magnetic poles, which we could verify if the UN gunships let us past the ice walls” and theyd be like “exactly, the UN! 6 poles?” and I would keep adlibbing from there until I start questioning my own sources and describing a spherical rotating reality
Interesting, he says a lot of words I used. Thanks for sharing that.
Its the same with my friends in America with family in Russia. It must be a cultural thing to immediately go to "okay we're never talking again" because I'm seeing that a lot too. Its interesting that the guy in this video was saying he thought of going that way but now thinks to get smart about how to get the message across.
It wouldn't work. Firstly if brainwashed Russian feels his faith in propagada is shaking he takes a double dose of propagada to feel better. To wake up from propagada is a extremly painful experience, because you are no more a good guy. I went through this eight years ago, I know. Skinner called this 'conditioning': if you felt better from propaganda then you would seek propaganda again. They were conditioned for 10+ years.
I saw it recently twice with two different people. I managed to make them to stop arguing and to think. I saw them thinking. But the next day they were even more partisan pro-war jerks than before.
And second. "If not Putin then who?" Putin got rid of anyone who might be his successor. And then propaganda used the slogan to consolidate everyone around Putin.
So "dismantle your leadership" wouldn't work. The last possible successor (as propaganda painted him) was Navalny. He is in a prison and propaganda did everything it could to drown him in a shit. People believe that if not Putin then Navalny, and they do not like Navalny.
The first necessary step to deal with an addiction is to stop abusing drugs or whatever causes it. Reportedly a few weeks without propaganda undo the worst of the brainwashing, and it becomes possible to talk with him/her rationally. Eight years ago I spent a month reading Ukrainian media 20 min per day (while continuing to consume Russian propaganda) to undo the worst, and half a year more to become mostly sane. But I sought truth and consciously pushed myself to an emotional pain, because truth is sacred. Most people do not feel that they are morally obliged to seek truth.
While Putin brainwashes Russians they will remain brainwashed. They use propaganda as an antidote to truth, because truth is painful.
People are afraid, they would believe anything to be less afraid.
I asked my mother what might be so bad if NATO conquered us. It would be no more Putin, wouldn't it be nice? She said that they would kill all Russians. ...
Power of propaganda is truly terrifying. Many, if not majority, of my American and Israeli acquaintances of Russian origin think that Putin is heroically liberating Ukraine from Nazis. They watch Russian TV channels.
Interesting. Nobody of Russian origin i know supports Putin/Russia on that. I wonder if it is age - my circle is mid-age and older (many experienced 198x in USSR), mostly tech workers, and i don't remember any mentioning the Russian TV.
@TProphet and his company, AwardCat, has offered to link up your airline miles and credit card rewards points with Ukrainian refugees who need flights out of Europe. https://twitter.com/sep332/status/1500563022842114066
I'd simply like to point out that Western media has been deliberately obfuscating many aspects of this conflict.
a few salient examples:
the 8+ year war in eastern Ukraine (14k dead, 30k wounded, 500k displaced)
the damming of Crimea's fresh water supply from the Dnieper (recently destroyed)
the violent seizure of state power by neo-nazis following maidan
the reincorporation of WW2 mass murderers into the national identity (postage stamps, statues, school books, parades)
I can only lament that in an increasingly interconnected modern world, wealthy globalists and oil barons can wield tech to collectively brainwash entire populations in their own living rooms: That sending weapons and mercenaries to foreign countries is noble and righteous. Strange how interfering in a nation's sovereignty and self-determination has become a hallmark of 'democratic' nations.
Apparently, we have forgotten the last 50+ years of conflicts.
Gas is the harder one to move off for both sides, since Germany needs it for heating and it'll take a while for them to move to selling it to China (which will turn them into China's economic colony). Not sure which one they officially make more from selling though.
Spring is coming. How much longer will Germany need gas for heat? When I've been there in April it's very mild, much more mild than here in the midwest/northeast that time of year
My understanding is that Germany buys natural gas regularly throughout the year, and stores it. During the winter the stored gas is rapidly used up, much faster than can be replenished.
It is not like the gas flows directly from Russia to people's homes.
60% of exports are to Europe and the pipelines feeding Europe are not connected to the one's used to transport gas to China.
So a switch just cannot be flipped.
It's a major infrastructure project.
I don't think these countries care about ukraine-russia conflict the way the western world cares.
Humans have biases due to tribalist nature. That is why last year no one gave a shit about the Armenia-Nagorno-Karabakh-Azerbaijan conflict.
That is why no ones gives a shit about Ugyghurs.
So, West cares about ukraine, christians care about armenia, muslims care about palestian, jews care about israel, pakistan cares about kashmir, india cares about tibet, sunni cares about other sunni's while shia's care about shia's. etc.
So, western users (people) think that all the world is caring about ukraine the way they are doing, but it may be not like that. Countries like india, china will have their mouth watering as they are going to get resources (like gas/oil for china, minerals/weapons for india) at cheaper prices due to sanctions.
> ...So, western users (people) think that all the world is caring about ukraine the way they are doing, but it may be not like that.
Sure the whole world *is* caring. This is the first time in many decades (since, what, the Caribbean Crisis?) that a major nuclear arms nation, that also is a veto-holding member on the UN Sec Council, has threatened to be ready to use its nuclear arsenal against anyone daring to interfere against its brutal and premeditated invasion of a sovereign nation.
None of the existing checks and balances, like the UN, or bi/multi-lateral treaties, nor the "world police" is currently able to do any direct military action to counter the brazen actions of the Russian Federation against Ukraine.
Everyone witnesses the nuclear weapons being already "used" unilaterally by Russia, without being physically launched.
That is the nuclear deterrent as we've known it has been eroded. This cannot not catch attention of any state, nuclear or not. The whole world got less secure overnight Feb-24, 2022.
US GDP > GDP of China + India + Pakistan + Brazil.
Global reserve currency = USD.
Pakistan? Ha, comeon.
Now let's add in the other US allies (EU GDP is ~$16t-$17t, roughly equal to China; Canada and Australia both have economies larger than Russia). And we're just getting warmed up.
Most of the global economic might is with the US and its allies. Russia can be successfully smashed economically, and it'll be far easier than it was with the USSR.
Like they're buying oil from Venezuela, Syria and Iran?
There's five to six million barrels per day the US pulled off the market (that it can put back, and choke off Russia instead).
Russia can be smashed economically, and that includes gradually choking off the potency of their energy sector (even if it can't be entirely crushed).
Give the US a small bit of time to ramp production and it'll happily replace three million barrels per day of Russia's oil production at $90-$120 / barrel.
The US is a mountain of debt under bad leadership. It doesn't actually create very much of value anymore and has not for years. It is very bad for such a country to lose trade relationships, because that's all it has.
It'll merely pad some of the damage, not all of it, and not for the majority of the Russian population.
It also takes a long time (in the context of a war) to train up effective new soldiers to replace dead soldiers and to replace large amounts of destroyed hardware, particularly given Russia's meager manufacturing capabilities. Putin likely gets one shot at taking Ukraine (and that's right now), regardless of the inbound oil money.
It'll take a decade of bountiful oil money for Russia's military to recover from this disaster.
Only log in to say I'm with you. I see a noble and brave man who put actions.
The donation page on kse.ua, gave me an error 'Donations to this recipient aren't supported in this country'. Yes, I'm a native Chinese raised and living in China mainland.
I want to do something for Ukrainian. Sigh...
I know, I know some of you are aware of what's happening on Chinese Internet (what a weird and sad word) and there're people there who are advocating for Putin and cheering the invasion while ridiculing Ukrainian.
Please don't think they're all of us Chinese. I believe you (HNers) are reasonable enough to know what's happening on Twitter/FB couldn't represent all of you, same for what's happening on Chinese apps/web.
Days ago there's a HN submission [0] The new silent majority: People who don't tweet. I guess similar thing is here in China, those who are decent, gentle and nice enough, do not speak out... Heck, actually no not that hopeless, at least in my social circle and the media I keep track of, still plenty of people are sane enough to know, an invasion by no means has any ground and should be condemned undoubtedly.
Aaron Maté's journalism consists of reposting things Konstantin Kilimnik told him which is why he's spent the last few years claiming every political story mentioning Russia is fake, they've never hacked the US, etc.
If Russia didn't want Ukraine to turn towards the EU, they shouldn't have annexed the parts of Ukraine containing all the citizens who didn't want to do it.
The article literally starts out condemning the Russia's invasion as illegal. That doesn't mean the West did not bungle this or should be exempt from criticism. When you lead a country with promises of NATO protection, when you KNOW it is going to be provocative, you better be prepared to defend it. The West did not do this and offered no real plan for this circumstance. We shouldn't be afraid to criticize our own government, when it fails.
Would this be the very same Konstantin Kilimnik who was the Russian Intelligence Officer found by the Special Counsel, US Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, and the US Treasury to have worked with Paul Manafort and the Donald Trump campaign during the 2016 election? Gee, I wonder why Aaron Maté would want to minimize Russia's moral culpability here.
Snark aside, I think one of the easier things we can stop doing here in America is stop sharing Russian disinformation from not disinterested bloggers, who have proven themselves to be very very wrong about the nature of Vladimir Putin and the allure of autocracy in general. This whole "Democracy and freedom are incompatible" idea circling techno bubbles needs to end asap.
Yes, but that was kind of a joke so don't read too much into it. (I do remember he reported an anonymous Twitter account wasn't Kilimnik because he DMed them and asked if they were.)
The Substackers, I think, mainly moved to those positions on their own because there was space to make money on it, and polemical opinion writers and disinformation agents end up working off each other because it's convenient rather than actually conspiring. Probably.
The user in question spends an awful lot of time arguing that the West/Ukraine/NATO/insert current scapegoat of Russian propaganda is the reason why dear sweet Russia just had no choice but to invade.
"Russia needs to protect itself from NATO encroachment" is a common talking point that excuses the attack and implies that Ukraine and/or NATO somehow forced Russia to invade Ukraine.
It also goes off the assumption that the nations bordering Russia aren’t rational actors or independent polities capable of choosing their own path (or, apparently, being allowed to,)
Whataboutism is the tool of useful idiots. I also don’t give two fucks what Russia “warns” us or anyone about. That literally just proves my point that you and all these other apologists believe that Russia should be the decider of what sovereign nations near them can do. This is the exact reason all these nations beg to join NATO instead of having to be forced into it.
It's funny, whataboutism was always touted as the preferred tactic of Russian trolls, but I never had the chance to actually see them deploy it on a relevant topic. Now that there is one, my God, they're shameless, aren't they? To the point where if an actual human said these things to you in person you'd recommend a psychiatrist to them.
But forget about all that, what about the Monroe doctrine?
It’s crazy isn’t? I’m not sure what’s worse that they continue to try it even though it’s so obvious as to be funny or that it actually works on a lot of social media.
You do realize you’re both smearing an American citizen who supports Ukraine as a “Russian troll” with no evidence, for simply bringing up the fact that nations don’t like having hostile actors in their backyard and that Russia warned against this over a decade. I’m not on the side of Russia here, I’m just fascinated how one-sided things become.
Reminds me of so many political conflicts of recent past - if you dare try and have a debate to capture nuance, even if you’re on the “same side” - but dare to point out it’s not black and white - people form rank, dismiss you with not even an attempt at discussion, and attempt to make you into a joke with the other “insiders”.
It’s fascinating, and happening right here, and it’s because you don’t want to believe that maybe you’ve been captured a just bit by western propaganda, because that would make all the (extremely virtuous) social signaling you’ve been doing just a bit less so, and you just a bit less reliable/intelligent on foreign policy.
Still no thoughts on the US coup in 2014? Wish there were smarter folks in politics around here. It’s sad there’s not even a chance for any decent conversation.
I didn’t say you were a Russian troll, I said you weren’t debating in good faith by bringing up irrelevant things like the Monroe doctorine in respond to my initial comment.
I think he's referring to the Maidan revolution pushed in the region back in 2014. They led them with promises of NATO/EU membership, and then left them hanging when war finally broke out. You can reasonably conclude they had no intention to actually fight it out.
It’s cute you blame the west for this. Russia started an asymmetric war with Ukraine specifically because it knew NATO won’t except a new member until they shore up border disputes etc. Again this is the international relations equivalent of beating your wife because she wanted a divorce. It doesn’t make her being beat her fault or her new boyfriends. It’s your fault for beating her up.
It's interesting you read that as blaming the West. The article literally starts out calling the Russian invasion of Ukrain illegal and condemns it unequivocally. That doesn't mean the West's actions were not escalatory. When you lead a country with promises of NATO membership and protection, actions you KNOW will be provocative, you better be prepared to defend it. The West did not do this.
War didn't "break out". It wasn't some natural disaster that just happened with no fault of anybody. Putin waged the war, because he felt he could take Ukraine for himself and nobody would stop him. The evil will of Russian government, determined to deny Ukrainian people the rights to freedom and self-determination, combined with weakness of the West, and continued strategy of appeasement (has it ever worked?), led to it. It's as much "broke out" as you'd say "she left her home without a gun, and a rape broke out".
The West was wholly unprepared for this scenario. Even though they led them to believe NATO would be there for them (without specifically offering it). When you wage a campaign with the intended effect of bringing it into NATO, something you know is going to be provocative, you should be very prepared to defend it. This is a collosal failure of diplomacy.
I stand with Ukraine. We are with you.
Wrote this song a week before the war started: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZTdU21AoP
Now it's time for me to live by these words. Last week, I went to Poland to help my 68 year old mother in law evacuate from Kyiv and cross over the Atlantic to safety. She saw the airport burn from her window. You can read her story here [1].
Today, I'm renewing my Ukrainian passport.
Hackernews, I know not everyone here will be comfortable sending money for weapons.
But you can donate to direct humanitarian relief efforts here: https://kse.ua/support/donation/
The person that helped organize this left his university position in the US to go back to Kyiv days before the war started. He's there now. The war is not abstract to him.
To help the army with military supplies (first aid kits, bulletproof vests, etc) — but not weapons — donate here: https://www.comebackalive.in.ua/
And to support Ukrainian Armed Forces directly, go here: https://bank.gov.ua/en/news/all/natsionalniy-bank-vidkriv-sp...
The National Bank has a separate donation drive for humanitarian aid; you can choose here: https://bank.gov.ua/en/
Then there's the Red Cross and Doctors Without Borders (which, sadly, will be needed more and more in the coming days).
And even if you don't have money to spare, I hope you can find a place for yellow and blue for others to see.
To us, it's hope.
Thank you, and let's stop this war. Together.
<3 Odessa — Hayward
[1] https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1010488982510824...