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Denmark Will Hold June Referendum on Joining EU’s Defense Pact (bloomberg.com)
63 points by mudro_zboris on March 6, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 22 comments



It's important to note that the EU defense pact carries out EU-coordinated missions unrelated to NATO-style defenses. These missions are arranged by a body in which Denmark doesn't have a voice at the moment, and every country can pick and choose which missions their troops go on. The military involvement in a given mission is not forced just by being part of the pact. On the other hand, not being part of the pact excludes Denmark from any missions they might have an interest in.

Source: https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/politik/forsvarsforbeholdet-skal-t...


EU defense is perfextly fine. It is the NATO designating Russia as #1 enemy before war that is not ok. You keep poking the bear and tiger, it is simply a matter of time you get maimed. So NATO getting involved in WW3 is as inevitable as Ironman snapping his finger.


We've had this type of arguments in Finland over NATO for decades. It seems fairly obvious now that the "bear" is a sociopathic narcissistic of a country that cannot and should not be reasoned about.

Right now everybody here finds those arguments laughable. Finland went from 20% NATO approval to +50% in one week.

NATO has not been poking anyone, but Russia has now occupied or attacked 2 out of 3 of it's non-NATO neighbors in the west.


I am glad to see this.

I hope that the right lessons about this crisis (in my view at least) are drawn by the population of Europe. Thank god Europe is a set of democratic states, and the view of the populous is essential. If Russia gets bogged down and then has a compromise forced on it I fear that the leftist agenda will be to claim that all is well and the current level of unpreparedness is acceptable.

I am already hearing this from the "dinner party crew". God knows there are other priorities for spending, refugees, post-covid health, green transitions. But make no mistake, win or lose the Russians will be back. A conventional war, with the USA kept out by nuclear fear must be a dead cert loss for Russia. If it isn't they will try it.


The real/bigger thread in the future will be a hyper-nationalistic China. I can only hope we apply the lessons learned to China as well.


China is already preparing. https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1500537455921053701

"China is now launching the enormous warmongering campaign. In 2021 they produced the most expensive Chinese movie ever, The Battle at Lake Changjin, on the battle of Korean War against the US"

"If you watch recent Chinese movies like the Wolf Warrior, you'll see that China is preparing its public opinion for the war with the US. China may not say it to the US but they're absolutely saying this to their citizens. You can't fool yourself about it"


absolutely. c.f. top gun et al.


I wonder how long China and Russia will remain allied. There's similarities between the two since they're both authoritarian countries, practically dictatorships. But China is very racially uniform and xenophobic, believes Han Chinese people to be superior. Ultimately, they must believe themselves superior to Russians as well.


Play both ends against the middle. Have the US and the EU duke it out with Russia, then run off with the spoils. It would make good sense from their perspective and it might just happen.


Superiority complex is a westerner thing (eg. Semite, aryan, American white). Chinese historically has no notion of racial superiority like Nazi Germany or even Imperial Japanese. They don't even consider blood purity like Japanese. Their cultural norms is to preserve what they own. Like HK, Macao, Tibet and Taiwan. They will take decades or centuries to get it back because that is what they own even if it is millenia ago. The closest this idea would be Israel...but unlike them Chinese dont view it as God-given. It is more like it is because it is as nature dictate. China and Russia wont be allies for long because of difference in races. But as long it serves their immediate purpose they will do so. Read up how Jin fall to Mongol because the sourthern Song want to appease the Mongol. In the end they fall too. The northern also killed their best general because that can buy appeasement with Mongols. Chinese historically is like that all in tactically but very short-sighted when it comes to long-term strategy.


" I fear that the leftist agenda "

It might pay off to see Europe through a European lens and not through an American one. Quite a few countries have had unbroken rightwing governments through decades of disarmament because we were ignoring the crazy bear living next door. And some of the countries that had 'left' leaning governments have pretty good armies.


Russia gets bogged down is simply a fictional hope here. You should read up how Russia mowed down Hitler. How Russia destroyed Grozny beyond recognition and garnered the survivors's immense loyalty (brainwashed). As long as no countries helping Ukraine militarily, Ukraine losses is inevitable. The only question is just when and how many dead. USA cannot help without risking destruction of Taiwan (1/3 USA navy is on the other side of the planet) and Israel (Iran going nukish). If you observe Putin, unlike American, he hasn't send in the war his best, while Ukrainian has been bleeding their best on the frontline (very similar to Hitler's crack troops against Russian worst back then). As more and more civilians get boxed in and then cut off from outside, Ukrainian military will get weaker and weaker to feed their civilians. In ancient Chinese warfare it was routinely their rule of engagement to exterminate any additional mouth that won't contribute to winning the war. As for Putin, he has a lot of old Soviet stocks that need to dispose of. This war is a perfect excuse to replenish his arms once this is over. So overall, we as worldwide citizen should get Ukrainian to surrender because 1. Less people die 2. Less damages to Ukraine to preserve their cultural identity 3. Ukrainian diaspora spread worldwide will one day have influence and clout to come back to rebuild Ukraine. Putin cannot live long just like Stalin.

But alas, everybody just gotten too emotionally gratifying to cheer and help Zelenskyy to piedpiperred his people to doom like the Battle of Hattin.


You are delusional, very clearly Russia has not succeeded as expected. It's not some master strategy going on here, Putin thought it would be over by now according to lots of evidence, from misprint in Russian news agency, presence of riot gear in many of the destroyed convoys. Maybe Russia can grind out a "win" but they definitely didn't intend to have lots of equipment and personnel losses to soften up the Ukrainians like you're saying


Go watch the map. See the big picture in Russia military strategy. Setback is common in war. If Putin complete his objectives in 2 years, it still beats Americans in Iraq and Afghan 20 years. Even better than Korean and Vietnam war. Even better than Libyan and Syrian wars. In absolute terms Russian lost way more than Hitler. In fact a Tiger easily destroyed 20+ Russian tanks towards the end of the WW2. You are thinking like George Bush Jr of "mission accomplished" photo ops 20 years ago. Russian simply dont fight short war. They fight effective war of attrition. They dont have rule of engagement like USA. They mowed you down when you are down. Kiev is now about to get boxed in with the last bridge about to be blown up. All the destroyed Russian equipments are old stocks. Their Ratnik elite soldiers havnt even make appearance. You are talking emotionally. I am talking logically even if it is extremely unpopular and get downvoted heavily.


the reason why you think your point is unpopular and heavily downvoted is not because people are outraged by your views (I only speak for myself). But because of your name-calling and jumping to conclusions about how others form their opinion. I didn't even care about your points and it has taken a lot of my energy to weed out what you actually bring to the table because it feels like listening to somebody being angry.

It's a highly questionable form of communication that won't sit well with people who are already not aligned with your views. Even less likely you change minds this way. The effect of this style of discourse is that by calling your opposition deluded and out of the loop of what you believe is the truth, is that you will only get them to back down on their believe.

Because why would anyone sign into HN just to be insulted? More importantly, if your points do have value (and I'm sure some of them do) they will be drowned out by the name-calling.

The sad thing is that any value you may bring will not be evaluated by your peers if the basics of discourse are already violated. It's nice to be nice and won't cost you anything. On the other hand how can somebody be right on any subjects if that person has never learned to engage in healthy dialogue to discuss these subjects with anyone holding different views? Even they are correct they will not sharpen their mind with the same potential they could. For you it's counter-productive because nobody will ever give you a seat at the table even you would bring in a refreshing new angle.

I'm not attacking you nor do I care about your downvotes, but consider getting help because it's likely a pattern that you have learned from your environment and it will certainly hold you back. And you can actually sharpen these things if you surround yourself with a different crowd. HN is a perfect place to grow. But it just takes time. Good luck.


If you don't understand the difference between WW2 and today... Even worse not understanding the difference between Iraq and Ukraine.

Do you not realize we live in a global economy and Russia is being cut off? There was no global economy during WW2. The U.S. was not cut off for invading Iraq. The Russian economy is in shambles they cannot fight a long war in their current state.

I suggest you delete your account and stop posting the dumbest shit ive read on here in the last few weeks over and over again.


Bloomberg is spreading confusion.

It's not a "EU defense pact", at least not in the Nato article 5 way.

https://nyheder.tv2.dk/politik/2022-03-06-danskerne-skal-ste...

(Backgrounder on this from a Danish perspective, via Google Translate.)

The EU has no common army, but the member states decide for themselves their military forces. However, they can decide that they will carry out a joint EU operation.

But when those decisions are made, Denmark is not included due to the defense reservation.

Denmark's defense reservation has existed since 1992, when a majority of Danes voted no to the Maastricht Treaty.

This means, among other things, that Denmark does not attend the meetings when military operations are discussed under the auspices of the EU.

Denmark also does not participate in the EU's military operations, does not finance them, and neither soldiers nor military hardware is provided to EU-led conflict areas.


denmark also used to be vehemently against building up an eu army


From what I see, several countries are thinking really hard about their position regarding an EU army. Which is good. Sure, smaller countries in the heart of the EU like Denmark or the Netherlands do not benefit directly from a stronger European military and are often reluctant. But they still benefit from the stability of the union, which requires the ability to ensure the territorial integrity and control the borders of the member-states. Too much hangs in the balance to leave Romania’s border integrity as a purely Romanian responsibility. (I love our Romanian friends and I don’t doubt their commitment, but I’d rather not leave their military as the only bulwark against an unhinged Russian army).

Like Germany seems to be doing, they need to realise that they are part of a major power, and that they should stop playing the little guy hiding in his corner. An EU army should not be an offensive force, but is should be credible enough to safeguard the EU’s security.


Europe is small enough that there isn't many places > 2500 km away from the front line right now, I think a lot of parties are re-assessing what it means to not be on the 'outer border' of the EU. It certainly doesn't feel far. From here the nearest approach to an active warzone is now about 1600 km, which is a bit over what you can drive in a day. Not much of a safe zone, and my colleague is living within 200 km.

I think implicitly everybody has always relied on France having 'our' back, the French have been pretty strong and independent military wise over the last 35 years (and long before then, in fact) and have been very careful about what they do and what they don't subscribe to from a military point of view. No nuclear codes owned by the US for the French.


> I think implicitly everybody has always relied on France having 'our' back

Another huge asset that comes with France is a permanent seat at the UN Security Council.

> No nuclear codes owned by the US for the French.

Indeed. But the French arsenal is still tiny. I wonder if Putin would test it by annexing an “insignificant” part of a non-NATO EU member (so that’s pretty much a bit of forest in Finland). A somewhat blood-less operation like Crimea would be a real conundrum. Or would have been, 2 weeks ago: that there is a bit more resolve now.

If anything, the current war demonstrates the importance of sticking together.


I think a lot of things that countries were vehemently against went out the window 10 days ago, and I suspect that there are many more to come. This is a cusp, in more ways than one.




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