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Show HN: Final Touch (finaltouchapp.com)
194 points by ThomPete on Sept 13, 2011 | hide | past | web | favorite | 117 comments

Hello HN peeps.

I would like to invite you to a little experiment.

I have created probably the smallest niche app on the mac app store and I would like you to help me sell and optimize the marketing around it.

Now you might think, "who does this guy think he is? – doesn't he know I have my own business to run?" and you are right it would be unfair to just ask you to help me market my product.

So instead I would like to offer you something in return:

Each month I am going to post all the numbers and the learnings. But more importantly each month you can post suggestions to improvements and strategies and each month those with the highest number of votes will get implemented (within reason of course)

It is my hope that this will be a case study for people to learn from before they venture out into spending money and time on something similar themselves or for people who find this stuff interesting.

The product is done in the spirit of the small butique network weekendhacker.net I started in May So far have +6100 members and have had 150 projects through and is still going strong. And the things I learned from members of the HN community have been invaluable.

Now this is of course just an experiment. Maybe I will break even, maybe I won't. Maybe I will have to cancel it within a couple of months. But none the less I am certain it will both be informative and fun.

Oh and yes you can move the slider on the webpage :)

So what do you think the first round of improvements should be?

The landing page is stunning. Who is responsible for the design?

I did myself. And thanks :)

nice site. there is a small typo you can fix in the "Manual" section.

> "Precision Speed The lower the percentage the more accurate your mouse become."

should be:

"Precision Speed The lower the percentage the more accurate your mouse becomes."

the "become" was missing an s.

You also might consider making the toggle switch, for the key mode, more self documenting.

Nice presentation overall.

With Firefox 6 there is an extra space after the footer.

I wish I had a need for the app because it looks just so beautiful, and the website is stunning and does an amazing job of describing it as well.

Looks great. You should create a template out of it, many Mac app devs (myself included) would buy it.

Do you really have a registered trademark already? If not, you should remove the registered trademark symbol.

There is no live registered trademark in the US for "Final Touch" or "FinalTouch" in a relevant class. There was one in the computer software field from 1992 that has since been abandoned.

The proper way to indicate a claim to mark by usage is to use the "TM" (trademark) or "SM" (service mark) designation which indicates a common-law or state law mark. This is also the proper designation if you have filed an application with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) but the mark has not yet been granted registration.

You can only legally use the federal registration symbol "®" after the USPTO actually registers a mark, and not while an application is pending or based on common law rights.

Nathan, good eye. It seemed unlikely that such a new and niche app had taken the step of federal registration, much less done so long enough ago to be registered.

+1 for removing the trademark ® symbol.

I love the design! It's fantastic. And I can see this app being super-useful. Congrats, I think this one's gonna be a home run!

Just tweeted it out. I've got mostly designer followers so hopefully it boosts you a bit! It got >100 clicks in the first minute so now we'll see if you get some sales :)

and now you have another designer follower ;)

re: idea about sharing the info that's great, so I want it to be successful.

From a (potential) customer point of view, to increase the precision of my mouse, I simply zoom in in p/shop or illustrator. Being able to go from pixel to pixel not zoomed in doesn't matter to me because I can't see that small anyway!

Dude thnx and love your writing btw.

Maybe I will break even, maybe I won't. Maybe I will have to cancel it within a couple of months. But none the less I am certain it will both be informative and fun.

I'm curious, what support costs do you have that would require you to cancel?

I was more thinking about the "experiment" of posting the numbers. If there are no numbers to write about :)

Great idea for an experiment. I'm make sure to highlight it in this weeks Hacker Newsletter.

In Firefox 6 on Mac the slider knob jumps up and down to avoid the mouse when you move it.

thnx will have a look at that

I really love TragicMouse, aside from its glaring acceleration issues. I am going to try this app!

As for all these people bitching about the price of this app: If you think it is worth less than the value that it represents to you then you should go and re-create this app and sell it at a lower price point rather than telling the original developer to lower his price. Be sure to publish your figures.

If you find that $16 is less than the value you'd extract from the app then you should probably buy it.

Of course he can lower the price later, just not all at once, but I'd be more interested in the same story at a different pricepoint with another useful app.

A couple of those and the data would become very valuable.

The fact that people are buying the app just by browsing the app store means that he's at least in the ballpark, the 'ideal' price is something that you can only determine experimentally, not by responding to whining about the price.

That's some kind of logical fallacy... sort of like saying... "if you think that aircraft carrier is overpriced, you should build one and sell it yourself."

One can determine objectively whether something is overpriced based on comparisons with competing products.

If an aircraft carrier is overpriced then there is a market for cheaper ones and you can make a bundle by putting your money where your mouth is (assuming you are right, of course).

If making aircraft carriers is not your thing then you shouldn't be telling other people how much to charge for theirs.

The only reason multiple competing products would come in to existence is because of people going the first route.

If you need to A/B test any of the ideas proposed here (or in future), we'd love to offer you a free subscription to Visual Website Optimizer http://visualwebsiteoptimizer.com Just contact me paras {at} wingify {dot} com

As for ideas, here are mine:

* If you want to generate traffic, there are some long tail terms that can get you traffic. Try writing some articles on keywords "best mouse for photoshop", "best photoshop mouse", "magic mouse photoshop" or "mouse for photoshop" (Have these terms in title, headline and link them from homepage with this anchor text). Promote your app on these specific articles.

* Contact Smashing Magazine and other design magazines and offer them 3 free licenses to award to their readers.

* Tweet prominent designers to try out your app

* Landing page tip: show a small video demonstrating how to use your app and what results can be gotten.

Good luck with your initiative. Very excited to see this experiment.

Fab! This is the kind of feedback I am looking for. Will get in contact with you regarding a/b testing. Too bad I can't AB test pricing on the app store :)

A great idea, both the app and this post!

Unless the unobstrusiveness is the main selling point, I would drop "A small unobtrusive app that allows you to" from the description and just go with "Achieve unrivaled precision with your mouse". You could list the fact that it is unobstrusive further below.

Maybe something more succinct, like "Unrivaled Mouse Precision".

I understand your idea of making the title as less wordy as possible but in terms of SEO it's not always the best strategy (never actually?). Assuming you want to use SEO as a marketing tool, your title shouldn't come from an idea you had but from actual data. You need to go through keywords on https://adwords.google.com/select/KeywordToolExternal and see what people are looking for. For the best result, try to use the words with better results on the title and every now and then on the text of the page (the copy if you prefer).

What SEO value do "small unobtrusive app" and "achieve" and "with your" really add to this page? I suppose you'd have to view what kind of conversions you get from those types of keywords, but I wouldn't imagine those keywords coming in with any sort of frequency, or delivering conversions.

I understand your argument, but it would make more sense if the heading had better keywords. I don't see this heading adding much SEO value.

You can always A/B titles and see if a shorter title adds value, and if so, weigh it against SEO value. SEO value isn't the only determining factor; it's optimizing the entire page, which may mean giving up SEO value in favor of optimizing something that delivers higher profits.

I wasn't defending the original title, just saying simplifying a title is not always the way to go. Sorry if I misunderstood your suggestion, I agree with all your points.

I don't have a mac, but nice idea :-)

Feedback: Key mode 1 or 2? Whatever happened to nice labels that don't require looking up in a manual, like "hold" and "toggle"?

this was the first thing I noticed as well. I think the extra space required for words is worth the lack of confusion.

Agreed. If space is really an issue at least use "T" and "H".

Thanks for the feedback. And yes it's one of those things that might or might not work out.

I figured since the app is so simple and there is practically no features I could get a way with the user figuring out how to use it.

If it gives problems I will change it. But so far those who have tried pretty quickly found out.

15.99 is too expensive, IMO, but I guess you can make that decision based on sales data. I would experiment with 4.99.

Something else a lot of people don't realize is that mouse acceleration is turned on in OSX and it's 'impossible' to disable without an app like USB Overdrive. Mouse accel is terrible for gaming -- especially FPS. I would add this feature to your product and call it out.

Having sold a SAAS app for far too little for far too long, I can tell you from my experience under pricing is a fast track to losing your hair and your shirt.

At $4.99 how many pre-sale/support emails are you willing to answer? At 4.99 how much marketing can you do? At 4.99 there's just not much room for profit assuming you have to do these tasks.

The reality is that as soon as someone opens their wallet and buys your software they think you're their bitch for life. They don't consider HOW much they paid, only that they paid.

Ironically, I've also found the people who want the app the most are:

   - Willing to pay a premium

   - Complain the least
These are the people you want as customers.

*Updated for formatting

As a software developer, I find it depressing that people would find 16$ (about 15 minutes of billable work?) too much for an application that, presumably, would be used all the time by people who need high precision pointing.

It's depressing but it's the reality of the Mac App Store. Huge companies are shipping games for under 10 bucks, so even though it's sad, you have to scale your price with the overall economics.

On the iOS App Store it's even worse. I actually heard a good quote once: "if your app is amazing, make it 99-cents. If it's shit, make it $2.99."

Perhaps, if you were expecting to sell one copy @ $16. But your argument is invalid at internet scale. $.99 games sell millions of volume.

I'm not going to spend $14.99 on it because there are alternative products for cheaper or free. Demand will dictate the price, I simply suggested that 4.99 might be a better price point but that he should look at the data first.

It's not a game, though. It's a professional utility for gainfully employed designers, who can either expense it to their MegaCorp, or if they're independent, consider it an investment in their career.

Think about how much the Adobe Suite costs. $16 is not too much for this audience.

this is the same group of people that will put up with godaddy to save $2 a year on domain registrations.

My first knee jerk reaction was similiar - to grandparent - this app looks so simple, that with $15 price it seems you want to break even with 20 copies sold.

Nothin wrong with that, but it just seems too expansive for the effort it seems to take to make something like that.

Probably it's my inner optimistic programmer speaking, I can believe it was much more difficult to make this than I predict, but that was my first reaction - maybe it would be usefult to you to know.

Anyway, good luck. I wish I finish my game someday, and will have my shot at being entrepreneur.

BTW: for developer in small Polish city $15 is 2-3 hours of work

Agreed. If you were to add up the number of seconds a designer spends chasing that pixel color with the color picker, or drawing that selection/slice bounding box, or selecting that path handle... I'm sure it adds up over the year. Not to mention, there will be an immense amount of satisfaction derived from having overcome these obstacles time and time again.

It seems to me that if you really want to experiment with this niche, price the product according to the value those customers will obtain from it.

I currently deal with these on my mac by holding ctrl and scrolling to zoom in.

I think $15.99 could potentially be too cheap. There are a finite number of developers who actually pay for stuff. It would be an interesting experiment to raise the price up to $29.99 and see if the sales change.

With a higher price, you may be able to advertise in ways previously unthinkable because your margins will be so much higher on every sale.

Yes, I understand most people program games here, but this isn't a game. It is a tool, and Adobe has proven that people will pay a lot for a tool.

BTW, as far as competition is concerned, your primary competition is WACOM Tablets which are much, much better for editing than the mouse.

* I will concede that I do not know if it is too cheap or too expensive, but I will say that I have not read a valid argument on HN today that proves it is too expensive. I think it is just as valid to say it may be too cheap.

It got approved Thursday and I havent done anything before today. The latest numbers I can see is till the 9/11 and 5 people bought the app just by browning the app store.

We will see. Since I am the only one in this space as far as I can see I think my value is justified.

But it's as always up to the numbers.

Here are a few more decision points to factor in for pricing:

1. It's not about building "how hard was it to make" directly into the price. The cost to build is a fixed cost and the selling price is marginal.

2. Neither is it about building "how much value does it add" directly into the price. An example: light bulbs provide more value than the price at which they sell.

3. What it is about, is asking how many units could I move directly if I sold it at this price versus this price versus this price. And then asking how many units could I move indirectly as a second-order consequence of having moved so many units at such and such a price. Another small example: Thomas Edison sold his light bulbs at a loss for several years in order to sell more units, scale production efficiency and ultimately recoup those years of losses in a single year of tremendous volume.

4. This hints at something people like Thomas Edison, Henry Ford and Sam Walton all discovered: it's better to charge less if you can sell more because there are more than first-order consequences involved. The idea applies to light bulbs, cars, retail. It sparked revolution in those industries and it will spark revolution in other industries which apply it. All industries are commodities, some industries have yet to recognize it.

Practically, price should be constantly decreasing.

15.99 is too expensive, IMO

Out of interest, would you buy this right now if it was priced at $4.99?

I would buy it at $4.99 with the mouse acceleration disable feature. Right now I use USB Overdrive but it's 32-bit and I'm not sure if it's working properly in Lion.

I have Logitech software for my MX1000 to control everything else, it just doesn't have the ability to control mouse accel.

Several people have told me that now. Consider it part of the next update if possible

If you start out at $15 for a couple hours (or even a day or two) then shift down to $4.99, your initial customers are going to be FUMING and will rip you apart in the reviews. This is a terrible strategy. Your launch price should be the absolutely lowest you'll ever go, and then increase it from there. You want your early adopters to feel like they got a great deal, not screwed due to price manipulation.

Several people have told me that now. Consider it part of the next update if possible

Definitely have a play with pricing, but make sure to remember that if you have three times the sales at one third of the price, all you've done is increased your support costs :)

Yes, exactly right. Your ideal strategy is raise the price to what the market will bear, then back-off a little bit, if sales start to drop off.

You should also take note of all feedback, since your customers are the people that are willing to spend a relatively high price for perceived utility.

If you are responsive to feedback, that is in itself quite a good prospect for users, and that is a lot easier at small scale, than it is if you have 1000's of users.

If you lower it to $4.99 people will tell you it's too expensive.

If you make it free, people will complain that there isn't a paid version or that it doesn't do X/Y/etc

Do not let a few people decide if you should lower your price.

If you don't sell anything, then maybe it's the price, but get some DATA first. I personally didn't think $15 was too much, but I have a PC.

IMO, $10 looks cheap, $4.99 looks trivial, $20 looks greedy, but $12/$15 seems respectable for a utility. I just paid $25 for a small graphics tool 2 days ago. If it has value, it's worth it.

Purely from irrational perspective and coming from someone living in Canada, $15.99 is indeed too much for a small and simple utility. However $4.99 is too little, almost implying there is nothing in terms of engineering effort behind the app. I would say that anything in a range of $10 to $14.99 is a better looking price.

Great app, but you need to drop the price to below $8 - I think this will help you maximise revenue. (based on my experience of having several top 50 apps on the mac app store over the past few months).

Thnx for the feedback. You think I should do it instantly or wait until tomorrow?

I will keep it where it is I guess. No need to rock the boat :)

Change it today, in time for the weekend.

I was going to say the same. I might pay £3 for that app.

Good luck. A small comment: "precision speed" is a slightly misleading term, especially when combined with a percentage measurement."Mouse speed" or "Movement speed" or just "Precision" are best? If the latter, then you can just invert the bar (i.e. 100% precision is super slow movement). As it is now, without reading the description on the website there is no intuitive selection for the user (much as with your "key mode" drop down).

Agreed, especially since your slider uses a percentage value (what's 100% of speed?). If instead you used a label of 'Precision' like anateus suggested, or a similar word like Accuracy and your end values were 'High' and 'Low' that should make more sense.

2 CSS booboos:

- .main-description has 2 font-sizes, the second should be font-weight.

- in styles.css the images/line.png image returns a 404 on line 26.

nice app, I don't have a mac, but still impressive. btw, small idea: I got the idea of precision vs speed, just format it so that precision is on one end and speed is on the otherone

Or your target audience (artists, designers, CAD?, gamers?) may be familiar enough with DPI that you can just use that.

Good point.

Breathtaking design. Minor suggestions...

Tighten the headline: "Instantly change your mouse precision."

On the Support page: 1) respell "Suppport" 2) add a space to "FinalTouchsupport" 3) shorten "Adobe CS1 [...]" to "Adobe CS3+" and 4) drop the ".php"


My two year old, $19, Microsoft mouse has already this with the software it come with. I don't mean to discourage you, but I think you spent more time on the design and execution than developing the software itself.

$19 is a lot of money for a simple thing like that. It's the price of a mouse + a software that customize many things for it (buttons, speed...). However, the niche is interesting. I'll be glad to pay $30 for a software that improves my mouse precision.

Mice come in classes as well. E.g., I use a 69 Euro Apple Magic Trackpad (and disliked plain-old mice ever since). Compared to the cost of a good trackpad it is not that expensive.

I personally don't need the added precision, but if I did, 20 dollars is not a lot for added productivity.

I think you were right on on the price, for a niche market like the one you are going after I think the price is perfect, someone that works every day would see as a minor investment to be more productive or have a more hassle free experience. Of course, you'll learn what the right price is with experience but I think you are off to a great start.

The design is, needless to say, stunning.


Have you at all checked if graphic designers need this sort of functionality? I tinker with pixel perfect designs quite extensively and zooming in is the way to get more precision out of mouse. Few designers on Dribbble posted videos showing how they work and this use pattern - zoom-in, tweak, zoom-out - is so engraved into their work style that I am having hard time imagining why they would switch. Also, consider the fact that even if the mouse is moving slower, the pixels are not getting bigger. In other words, increasing mouse precision does not remove the need for zooming in. Especially on larger screens.

So there you have it :) Great app, very well done website, but I think ultimately the niche is not just small, it is also very oddly shaped.

(edit) Perhaps repackaging the app and re-aiming it at gamers (as others suggested) would be a thing to try. Though on the other hand many gaming mice come with a hardware button toggling the deceleration.

There was a time a few years back where I put in a tremendous amount of time to locate a developer that could make a Mac OS X mouse drive.

Apparently, from talking to a few people, it is a hard thing to do.

I tried to buy USBoverdrive, as it is rather poorly supported, there are long standing repeatable bugs that support often times will not even reply to. It used to be bundled with MacAlly Mice.

I find the driver software for high end mouses to be terrible for your system, and often don't work well. For me, it is not about all the features, the buttons that you can define and macros.

I needed two features, one not as important, the other a must have.

Chording - it would be nice, not many think it can be done well. I tend to think it could be done well and someone should give it a try.

Where all mouse driver software stands still, and I wonder how you are working this out, is in the acceleration/ballistic curve.

I always wanted a way in USBoverdrive to hit a hot key and have a second definition of settings kick in so I could accomplish exactly what your app is doing.

However, without trying your app, I can't be sure it won't do anything more than just slow it down. Slowing it down is not all that there is to making this truly awesome.

Personally, I like to be able to move the mouse about an inch, maybe two, and have it travel the spam of ~24" display. But only if I do so rather fast. If I slow my movement down, I want to span a much lesser distance, with more precision. Current software on the market can't do this. You may get one aspect right, but end up with a mouse that is jittery and the smallest movement it can make is around 10px.

Or, you get it so that it will make a smooth 1px movement, but you have to pick up, place, drag, repeat... the actual mouse to ever get across the screen.

Is there any way to define this in your software? What curve are you using to change this? How in the heck were you able to access and over-ride Apple's built in mouse curve?

Nice. How did you arrive at that price point?

I just though what I would be willing to pay my self as a designer. If I am wrong I will have to change it of course.

I'd be inclined to go $19 or even $29 - remember the target market isn't us, and doesn't typically use open source.

Professional CAD software costs thousands per seat, as does an Adobe live license.

Sounds like a neat app!

The tooltip on "Support" says "Got problems. We got solutions". You might want to turn that dot into a question mark. Also, the support page has 3 P in Support at the top

Also, the Updates link on the bottom of the home page is broken, points to /update.php, not /updates.php like it should. ;)

Handy, especially as I've moved to using touchpads most of the time. Seems like this should be a part of the OS itself. Site design is very clean.


- Web demo slider doesn't work in Safari 5.0.4, neither do any of the toggles, though cursor:pointer indicates that they should. Twitter dialog has a lower z-index than the precision slider handle.

- Why keep the strikethrough higher price? Seems to cheapen percieved value.

Nice website design and nice experiment. I hate to rain on the parade but most OS have implemented Precision Booster to exponentially slow down the mouse to allow precise control of the mouse pointer, and also they have implemented Mouse Keys to allow moving the pointer one pixel at a time by pressing keys.

Hopefully your app can create differentiation. Good luck.

How did you decide upon your price point?

+1 for the design and what everyone else have said. I would lower the price to something like £3 - £4 and don't create the illusion that the app has been discounted. It tells me you've tried to sell it and it didn't work. Now you're lowering the price creating an "Is the app any good?" mentality.

I would buy this if the price was lower.

Perhaps around $7.99, to make it £5 in the UK, more or less.

Fantastic idea, fantastic site. Well done.

I'm curious on the poster's behalf; what about $9.99? Would you still buy it right now? Would an extra pound put you off that much?

Probably not actually. It is a really good idea.

Seems you were heard, the price is now 7.99$ on the website!

That was a mistake. Wrong commit. Sorry for the confusion.

Is one possible angle to sell this to people not using their regular equipment and going mad using a crappy mouse or so on?

I know that I'm not the target audience, but when forced to use someone else's computer for a few days, things like this have briefly driven me mad :)

Cool looking app. Passed it on to some designer friends.

I think the price point is probably right - a lot of Apple products are expensive and I believe the Apple owner mindset makes these folks more willing to part with their cash for good things.

To make it more appealing I would turn the widget on the website into a real demo in the browser which would slow the mouse pointer down using JavaScript. The user could experience the awesomeness of your app before purchasing.

The price seems incredibly high, sales would probably be better at a lower price point. I would think that you would benefit more from an "impulse purchase" price vis-a-vis a professional utility price.

Disagree. It's targeted at professionals. Why sell it cheap? He won't sell that many.

There are lots of illustrators. Most don't have money.

sales would almost certainly be higher, but revenue may not. it's a less convoluted version of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve>laffer curve</a>—the argument for lowering taxes to raise revenue. i think holding off on price changes for at least a week would be, as GHWB might say, 'prudent'. without that data, how can you know where you are on the curve? and how can you know if changes in price are the reason for more sales? i am not sure that 'impulse purchase' is where this app needs to go.

By lowering the price, you increase the number of people who find it within their expected value calculation.

By increasing the number of customers, you increase the number of data points.

Increasing number of data points, if the product is good, will increase both confidence and expected value. (The latter because more people are likely to contact the data.)

The spread of information will be geometric.

The customer base will, at best, build quickly from a low base.

However, the longer the low base period lasts, the greater the risk that some other application steals priority, ending the process.

Lower prices. Market bomb. Raise prices once saturation assures that you build quickly from a medium base. Do this transparently so people don't bad mouth you, biasing future information.


no edit button here on HN. or i am blind. though i suppose both are possible.

I really like the menubar popover UI. What did you use to create that?

Tweeted about it for ya - have a small amount of designy followers who might be interested.

Design is well done - polished and shiny, kinda how I sum up a mac (I say this as a non-mac user). Kudos.

Perhaps create a short video or animation that shows the problem, and how FinalTouch solves it. Put a short one on your landing page, and a longer one (with audio) on youtube.

Nice idea. I seen it initially on Forrst. I'm interested by the fact that you plan on being transparent about the numbers. Where do you plan on posting these figures?

A video or a menu item where I can click and actually see how this improves what I have right now would be all I need to try it out - didn't see that?

Why is your mode switch a slider between 1 and 2?

Can't you just buy a mouse which has a dedicated dpi switcher button for basically the same amount of cash?

Does that work with a touchpad? Does that mean switching to a new, unfamiliar mouse?

Look, it's a niche app. It won't make a billion dollars. It solves a small problem that some people have.

If you do some geeky "I can solve that problem for less", fine. But not everyone has brilliant problem solving skills, and the time to look at every alternative. They find something that works OK, and use it.

Some people use dropbox, not rsync. Programmers pay for Github, not a commodity host with git. Slightly suboptimal (from my perspective) products still sell, every day.

Yes, the Logitech MX518 for example. Above and below the wheel buttons to change sensitivity. Costs about 20€. Does not come in shiny white and it has an utterly confusing amount of buttons. ;-)

Yea... because that's easier and cheaper than downloading an app.

When rolling over precision speed and the tooltip comes up, 'become' needs to be changed to 'becomes'.

you should create an affiliate link (if you can) and let us try to sell it for you, get a cut.

sure what cut do you think is reasonable?

At least when I've done affiliate sales for information products, the cut is generally 51% or higher (since each sale costs you nothing, and the affiliate is driving you traffic you wouldn't have otherwise). For recurring income, it's usually 35% or so.

Wouldn't most of your target group be using a graphics tablet for precision ?

Some do yes. I am experimenting with making it for for that too.

May be a nit-pick, but please consider having a favicon on the website.

Give Macheist a call. It's a pretty sweet way to get attention.

SteerMouse does this as well, and much, much more, from the mouse itself, it's $20 http://plentycom.jp/en/steermouse/index.html

Is the ® necessary?

Very nice!

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