One of the things they told us in infantry school was, "if you get shot, don't die", meaning: don't immediately think that you're dead, because experience has shown that you might actually die from a survivable wound if you _think_ you're a goner.
Similar thing taught for offshor survival training in the north sea.
If you give up you are a gonner if you dont you may make it, and everyone who has survived had a determination to struggle on even when it looked bleak (i think the stats say something like if you are not out of the water in 5 mins you are unlikely to survive - even with a survival suit.)
They show videos of people passing out as they are airlifted out of the sea too and falling out of the sling. or passing out and drowning when they see the helicopter overhead - assuming that they dont need to fight any more.
I imagine these stats have a lot more to do with the roughness of the water than the temperature. Rough water can be extremely difficult and stressful to stay up in, especially if you're not used to it.
Also, if you get tossed off a boat in the North Sea, chances are that the water is not very calm.
It can depend on the individual, too. There's an interesting book called Swimming to Antarctica, which is a memoir by Lynne Cox, an incredible long-distance swimmer who discovered she had a talent for cold water and who (after extensive preparation) swam five miles in sub-40º water.
One of the exceptions shown was a guy who was asleep below deck when his fishing boat sank. Iirc he treaded water for a while as all crew mates succumbed one by one. He then swam to shore (miles i think) then walked several more miles to a house.
I think he collapsed on the doorstep (again having "made it") but was okay in the end.
He was not a slim guy, not sure if that helped.. but it was one of the dont give up examples. So outcomes do vary wildly.
Maybe the documentary tells more, but I just read a bbc piece on him and it seems like he gave up:
> He remembered: "I think once I accepted there was no hope of survival, I was powerless to do anything to save myself. A quiet resignation came over me."
I saw an interesting stat on this, in an article looking at 'which bullet caliber has the most stopping power' by looking at data from real shooting incidents (mostly police records).
If I remember right, the conclusion was that 50% of the time, it didn't matter what the caliber was. The person got hit, realized they'd been shot, thought they were supposed to fall down, and then did.
The other 50% did come down to the bullet caliber, lining up pretty much as you'd expect, along with some interesting stories of people who took mortal wounds from high-caliber rounds and kept fighting for a few minutes.
> 50% of the time, it didn't matter what the caliber was. The person got hit, realized they'd been shot, thought they were supposed to fall down, and then did
Something that surprised me when watching the NZ masque terrorism shooter's first-person video was how uniformly everyone shot immediately collapsed. It looked fake like a Hollywood movie, except it was real.
I have no firsthand experience with people being shot, but based on that particular footage my impression is people tend to go down hard immediately.
I'd like to think I'm someone who would fight to live, as is being discussed in this thread. But at the same time, in a situation like that where I'm completely unprepared to be shot at, I think immediately collapsing is probably the right strategy. If I keep struggling to escape I'm just gonna get shot again.
I am thinking back to the quote from Dune:
"you've heard of animals chewing off a leg to escape a trap. there's an animal kind of trick. a human would remain in the trap endure the pain feigning death that he might kill the trapper and remove a threat to his kind."
> But at the same time, in a situation like that where I'm completely unprepared to be shot at, I think immediately collapsing is probably the right strategy. If I keep struggling to escape I'm just gonna get shot again.
In the video the shooter fires repeatedly into the piles of collapsed bodies, and there's a disturbing lack of reactions. Folks survived but I suspect most of those were just lucky to be shielded by others who weren't so lucky.
I once got kicked by a horse (shoed) and collapsed just as soon as I located help. Until then I was able to keep moving despite 5 bones being broken, and piercing through my skin, including a major nerve dangling on the outside. Most eye opening experience of my life.
I have not watched the footage of the NZ shooting. I just wanted to speak to some considerations that might drive sudden collapse. Mechanically, there's two things I'd point at:
First, a bullet wound to the heart itself, or close enough (see next point) can effectively be an off switch, in the sense that you're blowing out the hydraulic system feeding blood to the brain. Suddenly loss of flow and pressure means no oxygen getting supplied to the brain; when that happens, willpower and mindset don't mean anything.
Secondly, a rifle round tends to be moving at least twice the speed of a pistol round, bringing with it significantly more kinetic energy and hydrostatic shock, creating a much larger wound channel, more likely blowing out a critical system and/or delivering massive shock to various organs.
As far as I understand any rifle bullet of reasonable size hitting center of mass will make you go down unless you're incredibly lucky and it doesn't hit anything of value.
Imagine a peak Mike Tyson punch to the liver / lungs / kidneys / &c. that's if it doesn't straight up break your spine
Before you watch this video again or another one like it I'd like you to think hard about how the victims' relatives feel about this video existing. Peace be with you.
The records of the truly gruesome parts of human history should not simply be allowed to evaporate out of sight. These things should be treated with respect, not broadcast publicly, but treated with the sort of dignity accorded to the visual recordings we have (photos and videos) of concentration camps. These things are evidence of the worst of what we can do, and have the potential if kept proper to outlive the survivors of such tragedies providing a form of permanent memory of the tragedy they suffered.
It does not belong on YouTube, but absolutely belongs in some sort of publicly accessible archive behind the digital wall of possibly a free signup form and definitely some reminders of just what you’re about to look at. And before anyone suggests some variation of right to be forgotten, I’d counter-argue that right ends when what happens to you is a national tragedy that significantly changes the society you lived in.
That's also why we separate bodies into different categories during a mass casualty event. If someone who was shot sees the body of someone missing multiple appendages, they can go downhill real fast.
We were training with simunition (paint rounds) and were told something similar. They said that if you're hit with sim rounds ignore it because if you fall down when you're hit in training you'll instinctively fall down when hit with real rounds.
Ten minutes later I was the point man while pushing upstairs and must have been hit about 10 times and I ignored it like Superman.
My mom is a nurse and when she worked Gerontology she said the #1 predictor of a bed opening up on their ward was a family member coming in and telling their sick relative that it was, "Okay to let go".
We think we are being kind but it's the kindness of talking someone into jumping off a cliff instead of trying to climb back down.
If you want your family members to have the best chance of coming home, tell them that you are not ready for them to go and that you still need them.
> We think we are being kind but it's the kindness of talking someone into jumping off a cliff instead of trying to climb back down.
>
> If you want your family members to have the best chance of coming home, tell them that you are not ready for them to go and that you still need them.
This omits important context.
Many of these people are suffering, and will continue to suffer as long as they live. Dementia, cancer, stroke, COPD, intubation. Even though "you still need them", keeping them alive through the miracle of modern medicine may be the wrong thing to do.
I hope, when I'm ready to go, that my family follows my wishes and does not push invasive and ultimately futile interventions on me.
My elderly mother has deteriorated to be entirely dependent on carers and bed-bound, I wish we could be merciful and let her die but UK law (apparently) requires she either be starved to death - which the medics have told us is a painful, horrible death - or be kept alive, with every intervention below surgery. It's vile.
She let go, they installed a feeding tube and ensured she couldn't die with what little dignity remained at the time.
She came back, in body, but rapidly lost what little of her self that remained. But now she lies in bed her life forcibly extended each day; completely devoid of a life, and hopefully devoid of cognition.
> she said the #1 predictor of a bed opening up on their ward was a family member coming in and telling their sick relative that it was, "Okay to let go".
Wouldn’t that be because people are unlikely to say that except in the most dire circumstances?
Nope! A lot of generally healthy elderly people who had a broken bone or a normal surgery that resulted in a few days in-care and then catch a flu or pneumonia and would be visited by their families in the process.|
This is a risky state, as multiple concurrent issues increases fatalities. They already have their age, the surgery to heal from, and then throw a common infection on top of it all? You're in a red zone for survival at that point, but it's common enough and the fatalities are very low at that point unless you add in the secret ingredient.
That ingredient being a beloved family member that doesn't tend to make histrionics out of small crises, the calm and caring one of the family, you know? When that person tells you how they want you to stay but "if you need to go then go", tearfully bidding you adieu?
That's a straight up death sentence.
If your elderly family member is in a tight spot but has a decent life waiting on them to recover? Don't tell them it's okay to go. Tell them to fight like they're the third monkey on the ramp of Noah's Ark and it's starting to rain.
Then again, if they have severe issues, will never be outside of the institution again, they only have Jello night on Tuesdays to look forward to for the rest of their drooling, senile, smelly, miserable, and unfathomably uncomfortable lives, then that is when you tell them it's okay to go because literally nothing is better than where they will be if they survive.
While this is true, life at all costs is NOT always the best answer, and begging someone to hold on when they're ready for death is incredibly tragic and a little selfish on the part of the family IMO.
My grandpa has been clinging to life for the past couple of years for the benefit of his son despite the fact that he clearly doesn't fully exist on this plane anymore, and it's hard for me to watch. When I'm his age, I hope I'm surrounded by people that understand me enough to let me go when the time comes.
Hm, i was recently in a hospital room reading the pamphlets for grieving and soon to be grieving relatives and the "okay to let go" verbiage was actually recommended, although it was more directed at the family. It said it was much more common for family to be in denial, so please consult your doctor before saying goodbye i guess.
We were taught: never ever say someone is not going to make it.
The hearing can work even if no other senses work they told us and if I understood it correctly they meant these words could make the wounded person give up.
Wow... I mean armed forces all over the world recognize the concept of morale. I feel like there are aspects of that that we miss out on in everyday life, like in the media for example, concepts like "doom scrolling", and constant focus on bad news. I don't know
At the same time, I find cruel to tell a guy who’s dying that he’s going to make it. Also, often, not listen to his last wills “because he’s gonna make it”. Sometimes you just would like to go in peace, tell the good old stories, and say “That was a nice life. Thanks.”
I suspect the background is that the others do not want to face the death of one of their pals. Without some evidence, I doubt someone unconscious would die from a "he ain't gonna make it" - it's at least as likely his mates want to do something positive. Kind of a superstition that if they give him up, he'll die.
No, from what I've read, the problem was the reverse. SOP is if you are shot, first, don't die, second, get evacuated back to medical care.
because soldiers were taking survivable hits, but staying on with their buddies in the firefight while slowly bleeding out until the hit became much less survivable.
It could be other things though. Perhaps those that think they are going to die have reacted badly to injuries in the past, they are subconsciously aware that the injury is more serious to them than someone else (or that the injury is more serious than it seems). A over the top example is people that eat peanuts and think they are going to die are more likely to die and instead of attributing this to them having a deadly allergy saying it's because they thought they were going to die.
I'm mostly talking out my ass on this one, but thought I would share...
My brother is a doctor (CMO of the largest health system in a state, he was previously head of the Veterans administration for said state, Commander of the 10th medical wing in the USAF (he's a ret. Colonel - gave up the General track) , personal flight surgeon to the joint chiefs at the dod... etc...)
I asked him recently about covid related use of the ICU rooms at his facility...
and I was stunned that he answered that "we don't keep records of that"
I had been asking about who was vaxxed and not - and he said that he had several people who were vaxxed and got covid and also died, the youngest being 30, who was vaxxed but also one of his employees at the hospital.
The point though is just how much I was surprised at the statement that they aren't keeping records....
He was a field surgeon in Iraq, but I haven't talked to him about that experience much...
> I asked him recently about covid related use of the ICU rooms at his facility... and I was stunned that he answered that "we don't keep records of that"
What your brother means is that he hasn't encountered a medical or financial reason to request those reports run yet. The data is 100% being collected.
obv... I cant give up too many more details than this, but still -- I can see through it... lots of reasons I can't say... (I fucking got cease-and-desisted in the past based on comments here...)
I revealed how many cities in the US mandate and monitor every actions of your vehicle around certain buildings and require said buildings/companies to report the traffic around them... but I was more specific because I know which buildings and which cameras... because I designed some of them.....
I find that odd. Here they do track covid ICU nationally and covid even have them separated (they don't mix covid patients with car crashes). The lockdown was because capacities were getting full.
And they also know who is vaccinated, so the general claim doctors were saying was that vaccinated seldom end up in ICU and very rarely die. Most in serious condition are unvaccinated.
Causes of death tend to be tracked on national level too. It might be that hospital does not care, but death certificates for all kinda of stuff should be written somewhere.
