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How I Build (pketh.org)
244 points by pketh on Dec 29, 2021 | hide | past | favorite | 45 comments

Discoveries like kinopio.club is precisely why I find myself browsing HN every morning. This is incredible! It is now going to take over the world, and I don't think it was meant to.

<offtopic> This reminds me. For quite some time, I've been thinking about how the "infinite canvas" concept could be applied to a browser navigation (replacing tabs, history and bookmarks). Something like "tab overview" in Safari, but instead of just currently opened tabs, it takes you to an infinite canvas of tabs. </offtopic>

It was a Show HN in 2020—might be of interest:

Show HN: Kinopio.club – visual thinking, brainstorming tool - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24132631 - Aug 2020 (64 comments)

I think the issue is that the computer does not have infinite resources. Even with tabs where they are hidden most of the time it's a big engineering challenge. If you can zoom out and expect all activities to continue in the iframes.. it can work but there is just a limit.

But besides the infinite thing, I had kind of the same idea last week when I was looking for a mind mapping tool that I could just embed web pages in.

Re infinite, Kinopio also uses tricks like this where the <canvas> you paint on is only viewport sized but moves when you scroll to give the illusion that it covers the page.

That said, as cool as infinite sounds, you might not even want that irl.

Truely infinite space, like in real life, is harder to find things in, and the content is likely less focused on a single topic, and therefore harder for a human to parse.

(That said, I’m the kind of browser tab user to starts closing things after I get to like 10)

hey, you might like my wardrobe thing :-) https://wardrobe.vlad.studio/

that's actually pretty cool! I often find myself researching a topic and then reluctantly having to close a ton of tabs when I have to do something else. This is a great solution - installing this, thanks.

I wouldn’t focus that much on the word “infinite.” It’s more like “unbounded” or even just “big enough that you’re exceedingly unlikely to run out of space.”

bah, world domination just sounds like stress to me :)

That's an awesome service!

I'll have to play with it, a while, to see if it is something I will actually use.

There are many great tools that I don't use, because I'm weird, but there are a few that I consider indispensable (also, because I'm weird).

If I decide it is one of these, I'll take a sub.

Whether I sub or not, it's definitely a labor of love.

I’m definitely weird so I can relate :) (kinopio creator here)

Kudos! Good job!

Not totally related, but something like kinopio + spreadsheet would be pretty neat.

So often I find myself annoyed in Google Sheets that I either have to section off some subset of cells for some sub calculation or move that sub calculation onto another sheet.

I would love to have resizable independent tables/speadsheets inside cells on an infinite canvas like this that I could connect together.

neat idea , def something that'd take a bit of thinking through to get right

Thanks for sharing.

> Kinopio is free for 100 cards, afterwards it's $5/month

How do you keep track of this? Can people just create another account when they reach 100 cards?

Thank you, sorry for off-topic question..

I assume people can do that. That’s how it works with any free/freemium SaaS tier though. a few likely try to limit free usage abuse, but usually it’s allowed because the benefits of going after the few people creating a bunch of free accounts isn’t worth it, not financially or PR.

Yes this exactly. I would rather spend my time building cool new features than take on the burden of building and maintaining some over-engineered system to ensure that the card limit cannot be gamed in any way (which is probably impossible anyways)

please take a look at the performance. having made a change or two I've let the page sit in chrome for ~30mins before noticing that it was keeping that CPU at ~95%.

I'll look into that, can you share the space url?

(I have a support forum at https://club.kinopio.club, which would be easier to use for bug reporting if you'd like)

Yes! I love this UI style! It’s like Trello if it was designed by Nintendo.

I’m working on a tangential yet similar tool for organizing thought in a graph and want it to feel like this - more like a fun/intuitive game and less like a brutalist tool.

my approach was actually indirectly inspired by the process used to make mario64 – to start with the core interactions (in my case dragging and connecting cards) and make those feel good to use in isolation. Then building the rest of the app around that.

I wrote a little bit about that in https://pketh.org/why-software-is-slow-and-shitty.html

wow this is the first time I've heard of Kinopio... incredible that there are still weird, awesome, and highly complex projects like this out there!

This is such a beautifully made tool, heck, ive used figma jamboards before, and this is wayyyyy more intuitive and fun to use then that !,

Congrats !, I hope you get tons of customers :D

Dark mode PLEASE. And thank you for building kinopio!!

You could try an extension like Dark Reader to apply some custom CSS, if that's your speed, too: https://club.kinopio.club/t/my-dark-mode-setup-for-kinopio/2...

because the colors of connections (and soon, cards) are totally customizable, a traditional dark mode doesn't really work. e.g. you'll set your mode to dark and open someone else's space with colors designed around light mode.

The workaround , (that works pretty well tbh) is to set your space background to black #000. I also just launched the ability to set that to be your default for all new spaces you create (https://twitter.com/KinopioClub/status/1476569968414277634)

This reminds me of tinderbox - https://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/ Which I want to love but always feels like it has such a hard learning curve. I love how fun kinopio feels. Definitely taking it for a spin.

The content in this page is far too narrow compared to the whole page width. (Nice article and nice product, though!)

I liked the narrowness.

Nice! It work reminds me of this artwork from Dutch artist Harm van den Dorpel - https://harm.work/work/deli-near-info

Unfortunately the actual web app doesn't seem to work anymore

wow Harm van den Dorpel is new to me and is very cool

How is this different from Zettelkasten? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zettelkasten

I'd say that this product (https://kinopio.club/) is an implementation of the ideas of Zettelkasten[0], or at least shares a lot of DNA. However, lots and lots of things "are" Zettelkasten, or can work like Zettelkasten, or incorporate ideas of Zettelkasten. Examples of things which can be used like a Zettelkasten include:

- Org mode for Emacs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Org-mode

- Vimwiki for Vim https://github.com/vimwiki/vimwiki

- Notational Velocity, an OS X note-taking application https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notational_Velocity

- Obsidian, a cross platform personal knowledgebase where its "DB format" is folders full of Markdown files https://obsidian.md/

- A folder full of text files which you open in your favorite text editor can even work like a Zettelkasten (grep helps in this case though)

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zettelkasten

Does anyone know if kinopio data is end to end encrypted when you sign up for an account that syncs?

sadly the data is not currently end-to-end encrypted, it's really a difficult problem to end-to-end encrypt information that you're able to collaborate on. (I use current status quo best practices, like encrypting data in-flight, salting/hashing user passwords, and not recording sensitive/private information in logs). Thanks for asking this, I thought I'd made a help doc for it (on https://help.kinopio.club) but I will soon

I love this so much. Will definitely try it out

This looks amazing! Can't wait to dive in and make some of my own boards, really inspiring stuff :)

Really nice tool, thanks!

I wrote about how I design, code, and market new features for https://kinopio.club

I think your approach is quietly brilliant.

This line in particular resonated with me:

> I started with words. If I can make something compelling in a .txt file, that’s a good place to build from.

I love the animated examples and the video on the about page — they provide such immediate insight into the product.

Wonderful work.

The paintbrush idea is brilliant.

Also, not a plug, but I've used Roam Research (https://roamresearch.com/) before and it would be cool if there was some way to integrate how both you guys do linking. The difference being documents are linked together by basically a web hyperlink, whereas in kinopio the links can only happen at the card level, but the UI is much better.

Doesn't work on Android Firefox...

Can you elaborate on what parts don't work? I'm tracking android issues in https://club.kinopio.club/t/bugs-on-android/346/2

I don't have android phone rn, so some interactions are a little janky on it right now. There's a warning about that which pops up on load on android.

I mean it doesnt work at all, I just get a blank screen. I thought it might be uBlock Origin, but nothing was being blocked on that page. I am using Firefox Android 68.

I am on latest FF for Android (95.2.0) and it works.

ah that makes sense, Kinopio only supports the latest 2 versions of webkit, blink, and firefox browsers (android is tricky in this respect)

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