If they’re prepared to give this away for free, and make money off of upselling folk on hosted remote dev envs (or licensing the server side to cloud providers) then this could actually compete with vscode.
They basically don’t have any other product that is competitive with vscode.
…but, I’m skeptical they’re willing to make the jump to freemium based on their other SAS product offerings which have… hm… not been hugely lucrative.
Jetbrains products are free for students, and paid for professional use. In my opinion, the pricing of the product is spot on. My company pays about ~200 euro per seat per year, which is a good price for the quality tooling you get.
In my experience, VSCode is not competitive with Jetbrains products. Their products come with support and good documentation. The proposition is clear and you get exactly what you pay for.
So please JetBrains, do not jump on the freemium bandwagon. Just have us pay for a professional tool without constantly being pushed to some SaaS product offering.
Vscode was more a advanced text editor to compete with atom. But I don`t see it losing it`s grip of the market anytime soon. Theres lot of tools that use vscode as base, that will be difficult for them to convert, like platformio IDE for example.
If JetBrains releases a free tool that competes well with VSC on core features, I don’t see why the community wouldn’t adopt it.
VSC is far from perfection, it’s only a step up from ST in that it offers a few more tools by default.
And for educational use (teachers) as well.
So I don't see a reason to jump on the freemium bandwagon. They offer a lot for free already.
Needless to say, JetBrains are free to license and price their stuff however they want. But omitting this particular caveat to “free for open source” when important community-led projects regularly struggle to support themselves leaves a bad taste in my mouth. (The same kind of condition was, for example, used to chase curl off the free tier of Travis CI.) To their partial credit, JetBrains themselves only make this omission in the first sentence on the linked page and add “non-commercial” in the second.
well, they're in violation of the licence if thats true.
The 150€/250€ licence is for private people, companies have to pay 500€/650€.
/edit: i guess non of the people that are responding to me can read. he specifically said that the company is paying for that and the price of non-intellij licences don't overlap with 200€ on any tier I can see.
You can use it for commercial projects. The intent, though, is that only you can use that license of the product. So with my Jetbrains purchase I can work on personal projects at home, or (if corporate IT allows it, apparently they do here) install it on my office computer and work on corporate projects. But I cannot install it on a laptop at the office and walk away, letting others use that license.
> Purpose of use: General commercial
It just can't be reimbursed.
private person: 150€ intellij only, 250 € all products
corporation: 500 € intellij only, 650€ all products
There are other products that are $199 USD for the first year.
Since this is a direct answer to VS Code's dominance, I expect they'll do something similar and have a free version that can can be run on commercial hosting options, e.g. Space, Cloud & Docker.
However, what I personally hated was that there's so many squiggly underlined things ... in red, yellow, green and what other colors, each of which (regardless of color) could be either ignored or an actual error. Granted, that's how easy it is to properly check JS code for whether it does something sensible, but I didn't really find it helpful, especially because issue categorization and accuracy was so random.
> especially because issue categorization and accuracy was so random
Stockholm syndrome is strong with this one. =)
the reason you didn't find the IDE suggestions helpful is exactly because of how difficult it is to reason about dynamic language code. the tooling is basically just guessing and expecting you to deal with the noise on the off chance it found something.
...as long as you use Java (or another JVM langue) to do it. Unfortunately they don't offer a Community Edition for most of their other IDEs (PHPStorm, GoLand, CLion etc. etc.), although those are mostly based on open source languages too.
All their products are very competetive, even when paid. A license for any professional developer is a no brainer (in my opinion anyway).
If they want me to pay more for a next gen Jetbrains IDE I’d do so without hesitation.
If they did that, then why would anyone buy IntelliJ?
I understand why Microsoft came out with VSCode. They didn't have anything to offer for developers who weren't already bought into the Windows/.Net stack. VSCode was an effort to reach out to those developers and tell them, "Hey, even if you don't use Windows, even if you've never touched C#, we still have something to offer you."
JetBrains isn't in that position. Their IDEs are cross-platform (though, admittedly, some platforms are more equal than others). Moreover, their IDEs are all they have. They're not like Microsoft, where sacrificing some Visual Studio sales can be justified as a way of attracting developers to the broader platform.
I really don't understand the product strategy here. Either they keep Fleet cut down, disadvantaging it in comparisons against VSCode, or they make it full-featured, and cannibalize IntelliJ license renewals.
What's the long-term play that I'm missing?
I don't know if that's their actual intent, but I can hope.
My only experience with Java is as an user, and it's never been positive. Whether it's the applets of yore or the modern Java apps, there's always performance, memory, JRE issues and terrible, second-rate UIs. Maybe the language itself is beautiful, I wouldn't know, but the user experience is terrible.
Though since you mentioned IntelliJ, I find its UI pretty hectic too, a hodgepodge of 90s-style MDI and modern tabs and split panes. Some of the most common patterns (going between the terminal, code editor, debugger, git, npm, and DB browser) requires navigating between like seven different places in no logical arrangement.
Why is npm a tab bar in the lower left, the actual npm list in a pane above it, git/terminal debugger on the bottom, the code editor in the upper right, the db browser in the upper right sidebar (which isn't even visible by default), the db query itself in a tab mixed with the code editor, the debugger output in the bottom but the button to start it in the top toolbar...
I can never find the features easily because I don't know which pane or tab group it's supposed to be in. In something like VScode, the features are categorized in a hierarchy and arranged in layers in the left sidebar in a sensical drill-down pattern. Xcode is visually cleaner too.
It's not just about the presentation of UI widgets (scroll bars, etc.) but how they're arranged in terms of information architecture, discoverability, cognitive load, diving down, etc. Everything is a "module" of equal value competing for screen real estate and together it is pretty visually overwhelming, especially to new users. More important things like the terminal or debugger shouldn't have the same level of prominence as the less important things (profiler, R jobs). Not all features get used with the same frequency, or in the same contexts, but IntelliJ organizes them all pretty flat.
That's just me, though. It's like a lesser version of the MS Office "toolbars vs ribbon" debate. If Jetbrains actually tried to overhaul their UX, they'd probably see a mass exodus of wizened old beards.
This is probably because not many apps really use native widgets anymore on any platform. It's not even clear what the native UI toolkit on Windows is anymore, due to the numerous aborted attempts to replace Win32 that didn't quite take off.
The Swing widgets IntelliJ uses aren't any worse than native widgets and some are actually much better, for example, any tree view in IntelliJ supports excellent typeahead search, many text inputs are in fact full blown code editors and so on. I don't feel I'm missing anything by them not being Cocoa.
Thankfully the Material UI extension exists. With this enabled, it's actually one of the best looking pieces of software I use. It still ignores system themes, but the colors are customizable and the UI elements look fresh and slick.
In an attempt to be helpful, in case you don't know about it, the shortcut ctrl-shift-a brings up a quick search box of every action, pane, or other ui in IntelliJ. You don't have to drill down to get places, you can just jump there directly.
Well, you are the technobabbler... :-P
I kinda hope JB built it as a native editor and just uses a scripting language for plugins.
> Because VSCode is a fancy text editor, not a full-blown IDE.
What does that have anything to respond to the question?
I kept seeing people making this claim as if there is a definition of what an IDE is. VSC has project-wide code anyalysis and step debug. It may not be a good IDE in YOUR opinion but tell me what definition of IDE are you using?
I think the general idea is that it's a lightweight editor(like vscode) that stays lightweight with as many features as it can from IntelliJ. If you work on decently sized project you'll still want to use full IDE. If you want to force yourself to work on a big project with vscode, nothing is stopping you. But would you realistically switch from IntelliJ to vscode? Probably not, even though it technically supports (almost?) everything you need.
In my case f.e. I'll continue to work using Rider, but I'd like to be able to open some minor html/js/other projects(like our Azure B2C Templates, or my Azure DevOps extension project which is mostly powershell) in something smaller. Currently I can do that using vscode, but I'm not a big fan of vscode itself so it's usually just annoying.
No, of course not. VSCode's support for Java is a hot mess, and that doesn't look to be changing any time soon.
But would I switch from PyCharm to VSCode? I made that exact switch at work a little while ago and I haven't looked back.
My personal take is that IntelliJ stands to gain a lot of developer goodwill and gets the proverbial foot in the door by putting Fleet at the forefront.
I mean, even if a lot of licenses get cannibalized, they could always resort to selling user data. I don't think IntelliJ is that sort of company though, they seem pretty ethical from what I know about them.
Another consequence of that point is that VSCode is this editor if your main language is TypeScript. At work we use VSCode for JS/TS, and Visual Studio for C#/C++ on Windows.
The personal license All-Products-Pack is great. I'm prevented by the license from ever expensing it but I spend every day immersed in PyCharm, IntelliJ IDEA, DataGrip, and soon GoLand. I can open as many simultaneous copies as I need on personal and work computers, Windows, macOS, and Linux.
Bet: They’re building the core for all of their future products.
Start free, gain momentum, have “pro” addons, slowly start offering products like WebStorm but built on top of Fleet.
Sell Fleet only as part of their all product pack? Make Fleet the new product for $15/month that can gobble up huge chunks of VS code developers?
If they make it free they could get a big chunk of nothing.
I've never understood programmers willingness to devalue their own trade like this.
I worked in Visual Stduio, Eclipse ,Intellij, QtCreator, and VS Code , and I am paying for Intellij because it makes me more productive , this might not apply on your specific project or your personal workflow.
P.S. I still use my terminal tools like cat,tail,grep, diff so I am not a guy that needs pretty GUIs and I run an old Kubuntu LTS so I am not the person that looks at software at some identity badge.
Though the conclusion is that ReSharper slowness and price is worth it because Microsoft IDE is substandard and for some reason all the MS billions can't find a few competent devs and a competent manager to handle the problem( they are probably still fighting on merging the GUIs or how to name their garbage APIs in Azure ... yeah I am working with some backend MS APIs and their are garbage like created by teams that hate each other)
Question if this cool plugin is so good and is from Microsoft is it bundled in Visual studio or easy to install from a GUI or is still a work in progress and you need to track the git master branch?
I still hate MS they failed to promote C# and .Net, if for example Silverlight would ahve been open sourced and made cross platform then most of the SPA could have been crated today with a decent language with a decent standard library , then for smple web pages and forms we would add some JS here and there. But MS had to try to make the shit Windows only then kill it and embrace the JS/node garbage
Don't forget the time component. A lot of c# shops standardized on Visual Studio with resharper when a lot of alternatives either didn't exist or were notably worse (at least in function; resharper was always terribly slow iirc)
Rider (basically Intellij with Resharper plugins) is incredibly fast and productive in comparison, and VS 2022 is finally catching up with the move to 64-bit.
You either already know the difference between VS+Resharper and Rider and are just looking to argue, or you don't and you're missing what it can actually do.
Here are some basic examples to get you going,
- mixed language debugging across any .NET language and C++
- development of MFC, ATL, COM, WinRT components
- integration of said components with .NET code
- hot code reloading on mixed .NET/C++ code
- GPGPU debugging
- integration of SharePoint, Dynamic, Sitecore, Office, SQL Server plugins
- code navigation across binary modules, include native ones
- code rewriting mocking framework (Fakes)
I never bothered with paying for extra plugins and know Visual Studio since version 5.
Also, what may not have been mentioned, that intelligence can run both locally, as well as hosted somewhere else, eg. on a much more powerful server computer.
All their IDEs are if competitive means "they cost a little bit but they actually work and aren't loaded with invasive telemetry."
Not to mention they have an excellent multi database system management tool called data grip. But you go on and keep using VS code to manage your databases. Have fun with that.
That was asked more than once in the comments but got no reply.
However, I don't see how you can do either of those features well without a lot of indexing of the codebase. And indexing is a major reason why IntelliJ so so clunky.
I will have to admit that VS Code remote features are straight up amazing.
In contrast it's really hard to make good C++ code intelligence features. For many many years Microsoft was the only one that had done it (as far as I know).
Most of us were using Xcode, but at some point I discovered CLion and it felt like a big step up. Having proper CMake integration instead of needing to regenerate Xcode projects really helped, plus I've often found Xcode to be quite unresponsive and never really liked the way it tries to be different with stuff like code navigation (recent versions seem to be better with how they handle tabs etc.)
But CLion is relatively recent. Quite possibly VS was the only IDE that did that stuff well for quite some time.
That said, your thesis about the relative difficulty of doing this for C++ vs Java seems hard to argue against, and the rapid, continuous growth in C++'s surface area and complexity since C++11 surely hasn't helped.
That said, it’s been years since I tried IntelliJ. Am I missing some significant productivity improvement, for TS/JS development?
Usually though JetBrains' editor is used by other languages, which don't yet have as good open language servers, like Java/Kotlin/Scala/C#...
Clion's support for CMake is particularly enfuriating, with it's propensity to actively replate a target's name with filenames, even if they do not match in caps, which makes absolutely no sense at all and feels it is doing it's best to get in the way and sabotage your productivity.
That I bought clion and got stuff up and running for the biggest part in minutes. I am a looong time pycharm user though. Cmake integration is great for my projects. Embedded mostly.
IDE’s are very personal tools. Im an ide guy, always have been. Do use vscode occasionally though, it is great to test new prpgramming languages, or open big files pycharm chokes on.
Then, if you are successful, port your workflow to VSCode running in Linux.
I never tried it and to me that's not acceptable or desirable. I want an IDE/text editor that works, and not adopt yet another tool that needs maintenance and configuration and attention.
They tried to get that stuff working with existing IDEs multiple times , but they are all broken in their unique ways.
Whenever I see them announce something new in the remote development space I always jump in right away and try it out, discover it is broken too, and then go back to using VS Code remote dev features.
For local dev I still use JB stuff, but it is simply too broken and awkward for remote.
I quickly discovered that b) was false (or extremely oversold) compared to VSCode and switched back, couldn't get PyCharm working remotely and saw the loooong-standing issues on the bug tracker that indicated it wasn't a priority despite the marketing.
I still admire the plug-in-and-go-ability of PyCharm, but no longer trust it to fork out money for features which are clearly not what they are implied to be.
Perhaps the latter has changed; I'll await the reviews.
- "Code with me" is a Zoom/Google Meet with a code sharing.
- "Projector" provides Web view alongside of typical desktop-app IDE sharing. If you need example, there was a nice submission week ago that touches that topic .
- "Editing by SSH" - way another niche. Connect via SSH to remote machine, edit and synchronize your changes over the SSH. Nothing new, I guess Python and PHP devs love to use it. I have been recently using it, while I was tinkering with Raspberry Pi.
- "Remote development" or some kind "developer-machine-as-a-service" idea (JetBrains Space / Gateway), which is close to Projector, with a difference the machines are rented or managed by the company (burst usage). Ironically, it is nice idea even for small companies (<150), where employees were given low-spec PCs or some cheapest M1 laptops. All problems with CPU compatibility or other limitations to resources are solved by using a beefy remote machine.
For a person who used various way of remote coding in my life. I think all of those are complementary and I don't see any burden there. I hope they will keep and improve them over next years.
Command + click doesn’t always work if there’s a lot of latency, many times the „follow other developer“ feature turns off randomly, often the search breaks or doesn’t work at all, the video & audio inside the IDE causes lag and massive amounts of load (so much that many of our devs switched to discord).
For what it’s worth it works mostly great when the developers pairing together are in the same country, but it’s pretty bad when i.e. a developer from
Berlin, Germany pairs with one from Columbus, Ohio. So I guess it’s a latency problem.
And then JetBrains come out with this... That's certainly pleasant to see!
jetbrains itself has performance issues, and you need to muck around too much to get them working properly.
the JVM also causes issues resulting it having to tune the environment params to get decent performance.
JB makes tons of assumptions and attempts to be helpful in ways that just are not; precompiling automatically, running massive indexing jobs causing the machine to bog down, assuming it has the right to modify your environment.
these are all things I just do not want to think about when in essence I'm navigating directories and editing files with fancy hover tooltips.
the standalone versions are okay usually depends on the language. I just want an editor with code linting regardless of the language.
vscode in that respect has been a god send. install language server and you're done. performance is generally good and the background tasks seem thus far havent completely bogged down my machine.
Personally, I very much want an actual IDE for a lot of my work. So I'm happy to buy a fast machine with plenty of RAM and then give the IDE a good chunk of it. But I'm glad they're making Fleet for folks with other preferences, and I'm sure I'll be using it myself when I just need to open one or two files and make quick edits.
the not helpful issues with jetbrains are when it crashes, slows down my system, prevents me from modifying files because reasons, modifies my build configurations in unsafe ways because it thinks it knows best, interferes with CLI run commands because it doesn't safely check that it can modify files owned by other applications.
I'll grant you these are generally issues with the individual plugins within jetbrains.
why deal with all that when I don't have to?
Why deal with the performance issues the JVM has when I don't have to?
vscode I get autocomplete, debuggers, decent linting, decent performance. that's an IDE in a nutshell. not a text editor.
I'm happy you enjoy JB, great. it doesn't change any of the above and havent seen any indicators that the above has changed or will change in the future for it. hence I don't use it.
fleet may be promising in this regard. but don't feel the need to jump ship when I already have remote code editing in vscode. which is the only real first class feature fleet has to distinguish itself from other IDEs.
and if I'm going to pay for something like an IDE it needs to be rock solid when the free competition is competent.
however, your tone in this thread implies you're not a neutral player in this. do you have any relation with intellij/jetbrains?
I don't have any problem with you criticizing them. I have a problem with you stating your criticisms in ways that sound like it's more than just your experience.
For example, you wrote, "you need to muck around too much to get them working properly". This is not true. I don't need that. You apparently did need to do some mucking around that was too much for you.
Or you write, "JB makes tons of assumptions and attempts to be helpful in ways that just are not". Again, that might not be helpful for you. But it's very helpful to me. And clearly to lots and lots of other people given how popular their tooling is even though it costs actual money.
I think this sort of universalization and projection is unhelpful and ask that you not do it.
You are doing something very wrong if that's the case. I have 2 big projects open in my IDE (GoLand), it has not been closed since Nov 16 and as I type this it is using ~3.8 GB of RAM and ~3% CPU on my work 2019 Mac Book
My personal travel laptop is ~2014 era thinkpad T430, an outdated machine and it has never once hiccuped while running the IDE.
This is almost certainly a "you not JetBrains" problem.
the point I was making is that it wasn't an under powered machine that causing issues as implied by the responder.
sadly the issues I was having at the time were not just me all of them were documented / reported in the github issue tracker for flutter/android studio.
I really don’t know how did you manage to crash it, even with misbehaving plugins it will manage the situation gracefully (usually with a notification that this plugin had an exception) but will continue to run perfectly. Modifying files due to locking sounds like a Windows issue, and has nothing to do with intellij.
I really don’t know what have you configured for all these things to happen — what language was that project written in?
yes, that is the conservative JDK defaults iirc; its likely unrelated to intellij specifically. I only mentioned the system specs because the other commenter was like 'i buy nice machines and give the editor tons of RAM'. but thats the cost of them using java. I don't want to tune my editor to ensure its responsive and can get its job done.
> Windows issue, and has nothing to do with intellij
except I exclusively run linux. ;)
> what language was that project written in?
early days for a flutter app. most of the issues most certainly due to the plugins themselves.
it was primarily gradle tasks running without prompting and fucking up my build.
I didn't configure anything. the experience was so bad I just bailed out, switched to my standard stack vscode and the command line stuff and never looked back.
No, it is explicitly set by intellij through its vmoptions file. The JDK by default uses as much as half of all available RAM (that is for maximum usage. It doesn’t start there)
My personal experience has been pretty much the opposite of this, as someone that uses Java almost every day and other languages occasionally (.NET, Python, PHP, Ruby, JS/TS, SQL, a little bit of Go).
If i had to rank all of the IDEs that i've used from the most productive/stable to the least, it'd go about like this:
- IntelliJ IDEA: the best way to write Java, and the best of JetBrains' products, period
- most other JetBrains IDEs: Rider (a bit slow, but a lot of good features), PyCharm (slow to start, but nice to use), PhpStorm (no complaints, it's just that Laravel refactoring is way behind what Java gives you), RubyMine (one of the better options for Rails, despite its dynamic nature, autocomplete just works), WebStorm (a pretty good way to write JS/TS, even with some outdated and obscure codebases, like ES5 with AngularJS and no webpack), DataGrip (a bit niche since other IDEs cover a lot of the other functionality, but also present in the ecosystem), Goland (just recently started using, similarly usable); all of those are definitely worth the Ultimate subscription of their products IMO
- Visual Studio: a pretty good IDE that has a similarly slow startup to Rider but feels good afterwards, especially for developing against Windows and doing .NET, perhaps better than Rider in some regards, though i hate the VS Installer with a passion, still haven't removed all of the crap it installed, years later, and the checkboxes for the features you may/may not want are confusing and it's a massive waste of space (though i guess the Python etc. integrations are nice for some + Azure stuff); also has the most tutorials for it out there
- NetBeans: my darling a few years ago, completely free, reasonably capable and has some other tooling based on it (e.g. jMonkeyEngine SDK), if it had better framework integration and wasn't so dead, i'd gladly keep using it, since the keybindings are perhaps some of the most sane i've ever seen; also supports PHP and C/C++, but those are a bit weaker here; also really slows down with large projects
- Eclipse: i hate Eclipse, some people swear by its workflows, but i've used plenty of horrible software that decided to use it as a platform and did so poorly (4EM tools, model driven development tools for generating source code, some random remote'ish development platforms) though it's also really poor on its own, as a regular Java IDE; unhelpful, inconsistent and slow
- Android Studio: perhaps one of the few tools that are worse than Eclipse (aside from obscure SWI-Prolog IDEs and some ASM IDEs), i don't know what went so wrong here, but it's slow, chugs memory, makes the CPU hit 100% usage with 4 cores and just generally feels like a bad solution, i'm not sure where JetBrains went wrong, but since last trying it about 3-4 years ago, i haven't picked it back up since
That's about it, each IDE has its advantages and disadvantages.
For example, even IntelliJ might need you to dig through the VM and memory options when you want to open projects that approach 1M SLoC, since the defaults might not be good enough.
Oh, and in regards to DB tools, MySQL Workbench would have the #1 spot (since the modelling and forward/backward engineering and schema sync functionality is to die for, when planning things), DataGrip the #2, pgAdmin the 3# (the UI just feels non-native and bad, cumbersome to use, unresponsive) and SQL Developer would be near the bottom, after whatever else software i'd decide to list (horrible whenever you try to do anything apart from just writing and executing SQL, e.g. the modelling bits have failed to save and later re-open files pretty consistently).
and it was so horrible I won't touch the others for any length of time. I also havent developed in java for over a decade until recently (for work, only touch java if you pay me).
I can imagine if this becomes a succes they will update all their IDEs or use Fleet as the new platform.
> Still, we don’t deny the information could be a bit skewed – even with the weighting we give to our survey results – given that this is from the JetBrains State of Developer Ecosystem survey, and one of JetBrains main products is IntelliJ IDEA. However, that is not to say that this is not totally unreasonable, as if we look at other surveys, IntelliJ IDEA is usually one the most used IDEs, and usually has around a 55-60% share of users. VS Code is growing which is concerning, not from a competitive point of view but actually from the point of view that there is clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE gives you. VS Code is a code editor with some features that you’d find in an IDE, and extensions that can provide additional functionality – so if people are turning to VS Code for developing it may imply that developers don’t know what a fully-featured IDE can give them. In the web space it is understandable to use an editor as web developers are typically working with dynamic languages, and often use other tools like browser plugins to give them what they need. But in Java, especially professional Java, you really get a lot out of a good tool that has integration with the application server and you can really use the analysis and refactoring and everything.
Specifically this part:
> VS Code is growing which is concerning, not from a competitive point of view but actually from the point of view that there is clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE gives you.
People moved from IntelliJ to VSC because it was faster, simpler and language-agnostic, instead JetBrains blamed users for not using advanced features like CPU profiling which most people don't use daily. They are jumping on simple-editor train now. Better late than never
From my experience, most people who nowadays start programming, flock to vscode because it's free, used in most tutorials and then they simply do not understand why a certain paid IDE could be better, because they never tried it. Which is right with their statement. People keep parroting about greatness of vscode because it gets them through the day of making hello world apps and never have to actually debug more complex code or work with bigger codebases. Does it work in big projects for some(usually experienced) poeple? Sure. Is it the best way of working? Usually no(in my opinion at least).
Then it was VS Code, because VS Code gave me basic code completion and debugging which beat the text editor, and was massively faster than full MS Visual Studio. But VS Code's debugging features are buggy at best, PHP is a community supported language only, the .NET support is very easy to get tremendously confused/broken, and Python support for code completion never seems to work for locally installed packages etc.
Now I use the JetBrains suite of IDEs - PHPStorm, Rider, PyCharm do code completion, suggestions, etc on a scale that none of the VS Code community or MS plugins provide. PyCharm has really nice support for dealing with Pipenv. Rider has a NuGet integration. Rider debugging has always worked for me. An official JetBrains plugin provides the single best terraform authoring experience I've used. For me it really is the best solution.
Yes, the JetBrains IDEs are heavier than VS Code, and yes they cost money, but you're not cobbling together a solution from a disparate set of plugins and crossing your fingers. There's actual support.
With web development I find there's a lot of resistance to paying for dev tools - people are used to free. Additionally practically everyone seems to suggest VS Code at entry level to new developers. But once your project is non-trivial, it really isn't that good of an experience, in my opinion.
It's a bit like the dynamic vs. static typing situation. New comers often prefer languages like Python at first for their simplicity, only to "rediscover" that static typing is so much more manageable later in their career.
The feeling knowing I can relentlessly refactor my code without breaking a thing and not having to worry about typos is just wonderful!
Not that I ever use that - I prefer sticking with the language native tools, and I rarely require anything beyond inspecting runtime values and simple benchmarking.
Maybe this comes from the perspective of Java, where you need an IDE to do proper debugging, building/starting an application requires a gazillion command line arguments, and you have layers upon layers of abstraction to drill through? Those are pains worth taking away, but don't apply to all languages or platforms.
Would I prefer a native IDE for Rust? Maybe one that doesn't require 4GiB of Ram to operate? Yes.
But bar for IDEs today is very high.
JetBrains says the problem is “users are unaware of what an IDE can do” but maybe it is the other way around?
I also saw that switching branches can confuse lsp-server.
All of these problems are basically non-existant in Goland(Intellij).So depending on complexity of a project, I would day it is worth using an IDE.
VSCode does it to some extend, but the difference is night and day.
I'm willing to use VS Code Remote and sacrifice some features to not have to deal with that. My employer doesn't really care if I provision a big EC2 instance for development. I'll take a look at Fleet a little later on.
The only solution that works OK is Projector, but I can achieve the exact same thing but less buggy with VNC.
You're making the same mistake they are by assuming developers are just ignorant of what an ide is, and it's going to sink intellij eventually.
Same goes for most vim/emacs vs. ide discussions :)
> ...there is clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE gives you.
This is most definitely true for many people who have largely gotten used to dynamic languages and have only used text editors or have only experienced VS Code with plugins, because it's wonderfully easy to run and use, even if its feature set is lesser than that of many of JetBrains' products.
Where it all gets a bit muddier is finding the distinction between "not knowing" and "not caring/needing".
For many use cases out there, VS Code with plugins will be more than enough!
But for working on an enterprise Java/.NET/... codebase and applying refactoring across dozens if not hundreds of files, something a bit more might be necessary. When working with the Eldritch abomination that the Spring framework and its many integrations are, you better have tooling that provides you with smart hints, fixes and autocomplete suggestions, as well as context sensitive parsing of your dozens of XML/YAML configuration files and their values.
When you're trying to trace down a race condition across hundreds of proxied Java classes, where the framework rewrites and calls your code with reflection so it's really hard to actually debug anything outside of your code, you better have a good debugger and the possibility to use conditional breakpoints, otherwise if you can only catch any type of exception, you'll be sitting there for half an hour just to get to the specific state that you're looking for.
Edit: i'd say that all of the autocompletes and suggestions (e.g. "you can use a lambda here", or "you don't need all of this cruft for implementing a functional interface") can actually be beneficial to getting to know a language or a framework better.
They are turning VSCode into a first class experience when coding mainframe style across OpenShift, IBM Cloud and Azure.
The next decade in tooling will hopefully be promising!
Did many people move from IntelliJ to VSC? From what I've seen, VSC is mainly used by people who previously haven't used a full IDE.
It's also not clear to me that they're "a jumping on a simple-editor train". Given that with one click you can turn on "fully functional IDE bringing smart completion, refactorings, navigation, debugging, and everything else that you’re used to having in an IDE" I don't think it's actually simple. It's just a quick-to-open IDE where the user in in control of when to pay the extra startup cost for the fancier features.
We used CLion and Webstorm. At the time, CLion did not have remote debug but VScode did, which triggered the trial. Switching from webstorm to vscode for webdev was trivial.
From our team perspective, using JB didn't produce noticeably faster turnaround or less bug. It was no brainer to forgo the subscriptions and just use VScode.
For a while, the only thing affected was developer comfort. But everyone adapted very fast and surprisingly, new members to the team are also most likely familiar with vscode already.
That might not be a point in their favor. Once VS Code came out, a lot of programmers that were simply following their earlier training and using an IDE, learned how much you can do in a text editor. I've seen lots of "Why would anyone write code with Notepad?" over the years. This was largely rooted in Java, where the only option was to use an IDE. VS Code dispelled the myth that real programming has to happen in an IDE.
People loooove dynamic langues, no-sql etc.
But from all my experience, once you start getting into bigger projects, maintenance etc. they become a detriment.
So they start with a simple IDE and avoid the IDE with the kitchen sink. Because ultimately they don't know what they are losing/going to lose.
Fleet may very well be the main focus for IntelliJ in the future. It is highly moduralized , which makes it seem like they're going after github.dev, stackblitz.com, replit.com and not just VSCode.
In college, I left my ATM card in a machine and the person behind me pulled out the max daily limit on my account. I don't think the cops were able to ID him off of the grainy back-lit video from the machine. This was a new model of ATM that had worse ergonomics than the previous one. Turns out someone at the bank already hated these machines, and he arranged to refund me the lost money (which I'm fairly sure now he would have had to do anyway) in exchange for a signed complaint that he could add to his evidence trove.
"People are dumb. A person is smart." also applies to companies.
The thing is that if you're too rude when you make a complaint, you make bad evidence. If you're too polite, the same is also true. "We should fix this because this totally happy customer said we should" might work once in a while but it's easier to sell your boss on "customers are pissed about X which is also pissing me off." I struggle to find the right line between the two when I have to call customer support. Since I don't usually like to call CS at all, when I do it's usually because I'm pretty spun up.
And if it is Java, would be there any Substrate VM / Graal tools going into it.
Anecdotally I've stopped using Jetbrains IDEs due to the bloat factor and their relatively poor Linux support, where VSCode has been providing excellent support and still manages to stay lightweight (though, it's starting to get notification heavy, isn't it?). Fleet is aimed at people like us so I'm willing to give it a try, but expectations are low.
If Fleet supports Wayland natively I might give it a try, otherwise it's dead on arrival for me.
I am referring to lack of an installer, and also the default shortcuts which clash with the distro, and in general I've seen features come to Linux a lot later. So a better way to put it is that Linux feels like an afterthought to Jetbrains. I do follow and also raise issues you on YouTrack but find they often languish.
Their IDEs are still overall pretty good, but I gravitate towards VS Code now.
Besides this, I never really felt that Linux was an afterthought though. At least from my experience using CLion.
So? You wouldn't tell a non-programmer something like this about an app that they use and expect it to make a difference. The results—the effect that the program produces—is the only thing that matters. If JetBrains manages to produce an IDE where you're constantly confronted with bloat while you're using it, and using something else would alleviate some of that pain, whether the alternative is "native code" or not, then that's the only thing that matters—not architectural purity.
(Side note: is the fundamental theorem behind your statement even true? If I download and run IntelliJ right now is it bytecode running on the JVM, or is it Java/Kotlin AOT-compiled to native object files? Poking around 'ideaIC-2021.2.3.tar.gz', there are an awful lot of classfile-containing JARs in `lib/`, and `bin/idea.sh` ends like this:
# Run the IDE.
# shellcheck disable=SC2086
-classpath "$CLASSPATH" \
-Djava.system.class.loader=com.intellij.util.lang.PathClassLoader -Didea.vendor.name=JetBrains -Didea.paths.selector=IdeaIC2021.2 -Didea.platform.prefix=Idea -Didea.jre.check=true -Dsplash=true \
That was all I was saying.
I will admit that I don't know what your point is. Are you under the impression that the Java platform is lightweight?
In addition to your spurious claims about native code:
- code_1.62.3-167137107_amd64.deb: 77.4 MB
- ideaIC-2021.2.3.tar.gz: 795 MB
That's a >10x factor.
I use Pycharm, Webstorm, and VSCode and I don’t see the huge difference. Is it more apparent on certain languages?
They stated in their blog https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/09/a-picture-of-java-in...
> In the web space it is understandable to use an editor as web developers are typically working with dynamic languages, and often use other tools like browser plugins to give them what they need. But in Java, especially professional Java, you really get a lot out of a good tool that has integration with the application server and you can really use the analysis and refactoring and everything.
> VS Code is growing which is concerning, not from a competitive point of view but actually from the point of view that there is clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE gives you
So my main question is what do full blown IDEs do that an editor like VSCode cannot?
If someone can tell me how to set up VSCode to do this better, I would love to know. However I also need to be able to support other engineers who typically don’t work on the package but might need to drop into the code. It is much easier to tell them to download the community edition of pycharm and start working than it is to walk them through setting up another editor/ide.
I don’t particularly like pycharm, and don’t use it when I don’t have to, but in this case it’s the right tool for the job. (So far.)