> Worse, the Arch wiki (and various subreddits) are almost as bad as the Arch/Ubuntu forums were in 2005. They often lead to a bunch of "shotgun debugging" where users are copy and pasting things they don't understand at all in the hopes that it will fix whatever problem they're encountering for reasons they won't understand.
This drives me absolutely fucking nuts.
> The community in general is full of people who intentionally shoot themselves in the foot and are then proud that they find superglue for the wound on the Arch wiki instead of using a distro with better engineering practices where they never would have had these problems at all.
This. A thousand times, this.
> The mistaken belief that doing any of this somehow "teaches" you meaningful things about Linux as opposed to solving real problems (since 99% of the "problems" Arch users encountered will never be seen on other distros, due to the fact that the maintainers carefully ensure there are limited footguns out of the[m]) is terrible.
Idk. There are definitely some Arch-specific footguns (like the lack of distinction between upgrade and dist-upgrade, so that ordinary pacman updates can do things like uninstall literally all of your kernels (lmfao)). But I don't think the basic approach is necessarily fatally flawed. When I installed Gentoo for the first time as a kid, getting everything working taught me:
- how to identify hardware using using common utilities (like `lsusb`, `lspci`, and `lshw`
- how to set up a chroot environment, how to use a chroot to manage or repair another system
- how to install and configure a bootloader, what configuration a bootloader needed
- how to use basic CLI networking tools to get online
- how to manage kernel modules (blacklisting them or adding them to initrd), although admittedly a good distro will *usually* be able to anticipate those needs for you
- how to think about package version constraints and manage packages from different sources
- fundamentals of building and managing software (i.e., what compile-time options are, how to think about dependencies and reverse dependencies)
Probably the first two are the most valuable, and I guess nowadays the Arch installation tools basically hide what is going on in the chroot environment from you (and actually make it tricky to customize, like if you want to add extra mountpoints to it). But I don't think the whole ‘set everything up yourself once’ approach is worthless.
That's sort of my point. I'm also an old fogey in Linux hipster-land, who started off with RH5, then moved to Mandrake, then Gentoo somewhere around the kernel 2.2->2.4 transition.
It was really important then to know how to identify hardware so you could actually have it supported in your kernel (I don't remember if `genkernel` didn't exist yet or whether I was just trying to squeeze out as much performance as I could -- probably the latter). But it was also the era of winmodems, winprinters, risk of actual damage to your monitor if you screwed up the modes in X11R5/6.conf, we had to use `lilo` and remember to update it every time, etc, etc.
A lot of the people I talk to know who end up in the same positions as me still use those skills -- but we use them at distro vendors to make sure that 'normal' users never need to worry about it. Honestly, with the way Linux has been adopted, my expectation would be that by the time I exit the industry, people with the skillsets you and I have will be rare, and mostly unnecessary. Linux "just works" on the vast majority of hardware these days, and we old fogeys put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into making that so.
It's not that I think that it's useless, it's that it's not _required_ knowledge anymore, and anyone who is convincing themselves that it's giving them deeper knowledge considering the vast increase in complexity is kidding themselves. In a pre-EFI world where all you needed was a binary (any binary) located at `/init` which "knew" how to handle everything else, it was great.
At this point, if I were starting from scratch, I'd tell people try to really understand how EFI works (https://www.happyassassin.net/posts/2014/01/25/uefi-boot-how...), get a handle on IOMMU groups+SRIOV/nvme namespacing/whatever, and learn as much as possible about network namespacing and how SDN/CNI work, so "how does a packet get from the outside all the way to a pod || EC2/openstack instance || whatever" is reasonable, and that's not even touching "how does `dracut`/`mkinitcpio` come up and hand off to systemd+cgroups", because those are the areas where things are likely to blow up, rather than "whoops, you forgot to build the driver for your HBA into your kernel and now you can't boot", or "X11R6 completely shit the bed after a driver update broke your Xinerama config".
Different years, different problems, different things are important. What was crucial for us to learn in 2000 hardly matters in 2022 when an Arch live USB will more or less boot on any system anywhere and get you a working framebuffer, with a couple of commands to bring up your system.
This drives me absolutely fucking nuts.
> The community in general is full of people who intentionally shoot themselves in the foot and are then proud that they find superglue for the wound on the Arch wiki instead of using a distro with better engineering practices where they never would have had these problems at all.
This. A thousand times, this.
> The mistaken belief that doing any of this somehow "teaches" you meaningful things about Linux as opposed to solving real problems (since 99% of the "problems" Arch users encountered will never be seen on other distros, due to the fact that the maintainers carefully ensure there are limited footguns out of the[m]) is terrible.
Idk. There are definitely some Arch-specific footguns (like the lack of distinction between upgrade and dist-upgrade, so that ordinary pacman updates can do things like uninstall literally all of your kernels (lmfao)). But I don't think the basic approach is necessarily fatally flawed. When I installed Gentoo for the first time as a kid, getting everything working taught me:
Probably the first two are the most valuable, and I guess nowadays the Arch installation tools basically hide what is going on in the chroot environment from you (and actually make it tricky to customize, like if you want to add extra mountpoints to it). But I don't think the whole ‘set everything up yourself once’ approach is worthless.