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OpenBSD 7.0 (openbsd.org)
344 points by nix23 8 days ago | hide | past | favorite | 211 comments





I'd love to try but I'm experiencing hardcore option paralysis every time I start thinking about it.

FreeBSD, OpenBSD or NetBSD – _that_ is the question.

Wait, maybe DragonFly actually? illumos? ...wait, I mean OpenIndiana, I think... wait, what's OmniOS? Is Darwin a thing, like I could just have BSD and macOS for free or something?


I recommend giving OpenBSD a try over the others. It's just... a clean OS, and the base system is extremely well documented; to the point that I think it's the only OS you can learn inside out without ever using Google.

OpenBSD might not be the best choice for any given use, but it's so remarkably consistent and understandable that I think everyone interested in alternative OSes should try it out at least once.


OpenBSD has been the OS with the lowest amount of maintenance in my opinion.

used it as a webserver and VPN appliance for a couple of years now.

only thing in terms of maintenance is the following when a new release is released.

pkg_add -u ( i usually update extra packages every 6 months, which is mainly lets encrypt). syspatch sysupgrade

reboot:

after reboot

sysmerge to see if i need to do a config diff.

Has been rocksolid and very future rich in base aswell.


While sysupgrade is convenient, there's usually some manual steps.

Always read the upgrade guide before upgrading.


For the OpenBSD curious:

This release only includes changes related to SNMP, which I imagine are irrelevant to most people, though probably exciting for a subset of OpenBSD users. https://www.openbsd.org/faq/upgrade70.html

The upgrade guide for 6.9 gives a better flavor for how OpenBSD handles and documents subsystem and configuration changes: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/upgrade69.html

Notice how succinct and consistent (across decades!) are the upgrade guides. The above have the same basic format and content as this one from 2004: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/upgrade35.html I've been doing remote upgrades of OpenBSD and Linux (mostly Debian, but also occasionally Red Hat derivatives) for over 20 years. While I've fortunately only rarely encountered significant problems with any of them, OpenBSD upgrades are the only ones where I can have any confidence in understanding and tracking how the system evolves across upgrades. Follow the upgrade guide and delete outdated files (much easier since sysclean(8)), and a 10-year-old OpenBSD box can have a filesystem as pristine as a freshly installed system.

I'm not one of those people who wants pristine for the sake of pristine. But pristine is important when you care about security, and maintenance burden is a huge component of security, as are simplicity and transparency.


Lack of ZFS, or any checksumming filesystem at all is a hard "no" for me.

I don't want a OS where I have to read man pages and documentation to get around. The whole self documentation excuse is the same reason why Emacs is slowly losing market share. People want software that is intuitive, and failing that, have all answers available on their favorite search engine. Short of baking a chatbot or search engine into OpenBSD, relying purely on self documentation is not sustainable. Though the idea of Clippy being powered by GPT3 does sound appealing.

"Intuitive" is often a code word for "familiar to me". A full-blown general purpose OS cannot be completely intuitive; the user always needs something to build from.

For what it's worth, I think OpenBSD is intuitive because of its consistency. It's certainly been more intuitive to me than any other OS; it just makes sense as a whole in a way that no other OS quite does, and that's refreshing in a world where users are expected not to understand what their tools are and how they work.

OpenBSD just builds its intuitive bits on things you may not yet know. Fortunately, it has excellent documentation to get you started.


Don't take this as argumentation against what you're saying, because it makes a lot of sense. However, I would love for my phone or Mac to at least have the option of reading the documentation, but it's not easily accessible. Some things a deemed so intuitive that it doesn't need documentation, yet I still can't use it or find it.

On OpenBSD, if you're stuck on something in ksh, cwm, pf or any other built in tool, the man page is right there. Easily accessible, easy to read and comprehensive. When I play around on my OpenBSD box, the man pages is often my first choice over a search engine.

Also, not confuse man pages on OpenBSD with Linux man pages. Those two are remarkably different. Many Linux tools have good and comprehensive man pages. On OpenBSD everything has great man pages.


If you used Linux for any amount of time it'll take a couple of days to get familiar with OpenBSD and they you will be more at home with it than Linux.

To me OpenBSD is similar to what Slackware was, as simple as it possibly can be, with the advantage of a BSD being coherent and consistent.

I'm a long time Linux user and only used OpenBSD recently. I often find myself Googling Linux configs. I did use Google for OpenBSD to get started but found after a day I wasn't and relying on the man pages instead for system settings etc. They really are short, concise and complete, everyone says this but until you use them it's hard to understand.

I use Emacs I don't know Emacs. Emacs is a completely different beast to OpenBSD. Emacs is a huge rabbit hole and you spend as much time building your own Emacs as you do using Emacs. OpenBSD i've set up once which was simple as someone never using it before, and then forgot about it. It's been sat ticking away in a corner, no interruptions.

As much as I really like OpenBSD I don't think I can use it as a primary desktop. There's a few compromises on hardware support, no docker for my day job and I've read the desktop experience is slower than Linux just because it hasn't had the money and people Linux has had with drivers etc.

I'd really recommend anyone try OpenBSD for it's simplicity and educational purposes. If you use it as your main OS you will likely be dissapointed with some of the limitations, as a server / secondary educational device you might be pleasantly surprised.


You can still use search engines, but once you learn your way around the documentation, you might find it is more reliable and quicker.

To me, it seems worthwhile to have fewer 0-day bugs to worry about, and more reliable separation between user accounts (fewer privilege escalation bugs, etc etc). (I also recommend setting default umask to 0077 for the same reason, except while using pkg_add -- I have a wrapper script that undoes it temporarily for that due to issues encountered.)

There are reasons people use Windows or Apple (perceived convenience), and reasons not to (long-term cost/benefit decisions for known uses).

In case it becomes useful to anyone: One way to traverse the docs is (occasionally helpful) is using something like http://man.bsd.lv/ for OBSD docs, like putting in an "=" (w/o quotes) in the search field then clicking "apropos" shows all the commands -- a useful way to learn "what is available in the base system"; or doing full-text searches (can be learned locally, I have an awkward script for it if needed),

(Edit: s/what is available/what is available in the base system/ .)

And: I find the ~"only 2 remote holes in the default install since about 1996" to be very impressive.

Edit: Another way to look at it might be by priorities. I have come to see priorities of some systems roughly as:

OpenBSD: security, openness, correctness (including of documentation), portability.

Linux: features, performance, openness, breadth of everything, compatibility, convenience (distributions vary in specifics of course; debian and/or devuan continue to impress me in their own way).

FreeBSD: performance, stability, openness.

NetBSD: portability, stability?, maybe enjoyment for its developers, openness. (I know least here.)

Windows / Apple: profitability while targeting preferences of specific groups who want different specific kinds of convenience, it seems.


Oh, having man pages included is much better than "read the source code".

Unfortunately search engines are unreliable, some "search engine optimized" virus pages could be first, and not some bank or docs website.


Sure, you could make the OS CLI "intuitive" (by which I am sure you mean discoverable) by supplying the 'help' command, but in the end wouldn't this still amount to reading a bunch of text?..

This is not math what you can derive from some axioms, this is a system and software that other people invented. Good luck feeling and thinking just like all of those 41234 people involved.

> and failing that, have all answers available on their favorite search engine.

Luckily, the manpages are available on your favorite search engine!


My advice? Go with OpenBSD.

These are the folks that brought you the word 'hackathon', and OpenSSH. (Ever use ssh? Thank OpenBSD.)

These are the folks that actually bother to read not just a PR, but actual full codebases, just to make sure their pointers don't dangle.

It's been years since the DevOps space was first told to prefer 'livestock' -- disposable, nearly-identical instances -- to pets -- long-lived customized instances and servers -- but as every farmer knows, if you have lots of sheep, the job is a lot easier if you have a sheepdog. Not quite a pet, but not cattle, either.

OpenBSD is my sheepdog. It keeps my git repos, it runs my wireguard VPN, and it, above all the other systems I touch, is trusted.

But trust is ultimately about people, not about systems. Systems get their trusthworthiness from their creators, the way the moon gets light from the sun.

And in trustworthiness, the OpenBSD community has a breathtaking superpower: They can say no. They are good at saying no. Do you know how hard that is -- to have someone ask for a feature, and just tell them off? That's the hardest thing any manager ever has to do, and these guys are good at it. Rare, in FOSS space.

These are the folks that are so good at saying 'no' that they ship with a literal actual bespoke copy of 'vi', that does exactly what it is supposed to, does not take packages, and also does not have a package manager pulling in raw github HEADs. (I love you, neovim, but you are so trusting!)

OpenBSD has been around for most of my 20+ career in this industry and it's sort of always been this aggressively reliable paperweight of a distro. I'm never quite sure what to do with it (NixOS is my go-to for my workstations -- NixOS + Wayland + Sway + Alacritty + Neovim is as close to godliness as a user interface can come) but OpenBSD finds its uses, and in those uses, it is smooth and heavy and reliable, making it the perfect foil for the rest of my infra: For where NixOS is neurotic and brittle, OpenBSD is saturnine and malleable.

I think of my infra as sort of being like a knife blade, with a glittering Nixos/Wayland/Neovim edge supported by a soft, heavy core of OpenBSD.

If everything else breaks, so long as I have my OpenBSD instances, I can recover.

One final word: At my end, I just finished upgrading my instance at openbsd.amsterdam; big shoutout to that amazing team for their incredible support. (Mischa, in particular, is a force of nature, and I am fan. ;D)


OpenBSD is definitely the free OS than I enjoyed running the most. I now use NixOS for most of my server and VM uses because I really appreciate being able to trivially keep all the configuration state in version control.

However when I ran OpenBSD on an old Chromebook I did really enjoy using it, I made a point of trying to use just the base system and aside from needing a web browser it was extremely usable. The documentation is universally good all the built in tools are well maintained. In the near future I’m gonna setup a separate firewall/router machine from my NixOS box and I think I’m going to use OpenBSD there too.


I too have the nixos vs openbsd decision nibbling at me every time I spin something up.

Here's what helps me decide: I simulate a disaster. Since I'm just me, I do it on paper (empirical ways are best but are also the most expensive, and in a pinch, a thought experiment can illuminate as well. Not always the same things, but light is light.)

Try it -- open a scratch.txt and write about things that would happen, and then the things that would probably happen as a result of that.

The one that often comes up for NixOS is "I lose network connectivity." While NixOS is phenomenal in its ability to roll changes back, the fact that I need a stable Internet connection in order to make any change whatsoever to the current config makes that little piece of CAT-8 a SPOF for any number of unexpected (and intuitively unrelated) matters, making the overall system hard to reason about.

You can mitigate this by hosting your own NixOS channels, which is sort of the equivalent of hosting your own apt-get repo.

But, as you might expect, that's actually a fair amount of extra work. So I don't, especially not on laptops, where space can (still) be limited.

So, every time I do `home-manager switch` I need a viable network connection.

This is especially galling if you (like me) manage most of your apps with Nix' `home-manager`. Think it through; Nix manages (say) your word processor; you want to change the font size in your word processor; you edit your home.nix and hit `home-manager switch`.

But look at what this entails! My apartment building's fibre-optic cabling should never be a depenency on altering the font size in my word processor, but here I am. Ironically, for the sake of convenience.

Now, none of this is to slag on NixOS. As I mentioned above, it's my favourite way to encounter reality. I'm typing this to you on NixOS right now. For me, the pros outweigh the cons. Provided, of course, I have something less brittle than NixOS to back me up, and for me, that means OpenBSD.

I have an OpenBSD instance in the cloud and a break-glass procedure for getting into it. It backs up via another old-school friend, tarsnap. It hosts the git repos that contain my nixos and home-manager configs. If I can talk to it, I can simply zap my NixOS config onto some new edge device and be back up and running in no time.

I also typically have a NUC running OpenBSD present as well, in case that apartment-building fibre gets troublesome (again,) but not at the moment, because my beloved PCEngines device has apparently become unstable under any OS. But when I get that OBSD NUC set (back) up, it will absolutely have a NixOS channel on it, and it will serve as a firewall, a SAN, serving NixOS channels to the edge devices. It will have an actual serial port and a password on a wax-sealed bit of paper in my fireproof safe. Because I think ahead, and that's what I need to get back up and running under the worst circumstances.

I simply can't imagine a non-hardware-failure disaster that could take out an aggressively boring OpenBSD bastion instance. They are just relentless in their persistence.

As I keep saying, NixOS and OpenBSD pair together like honey and mustard. Contrastive but unexpectedly delicious.

Take-home: If you're building infra, try adding some OpenBSD to the mix. It can make the unrecoverable recoverable.


Thank you for writing this. Analogous to spinning wheels, the outside rotating very fast ( NixOS/Arch) and near the stable center we have several BSD's. FreeBSD for the excellent ZFS, OpenBSD for vital network functions, Wireguard etc.

Cheers, happy donations to the BSD Foundation!


This isn’t all that different from choosing the Linux OS of choice. That decision often is partnered with the package manager that’s desired, and how quickly things are upstreamed in it. Do you want apt, nix, yum/rpm? Then how stable do you want it? Debian, Ubuntu, etc? How much support are you looking for? Redhat, etc.

I guess I don’t see a major difference in the complexity of that decision process in the Linux space, which might have been alluded to.


Most Linux distributions are much more similar to each other than BSDs are. At least that's my impression after spending the last month at work porting a bunch of scripts from Linux to several BSDs (Free, Open, and Net). The differences are too many to describe here, from where they install third party libraries, to configuration file locations and formats, to how basic tools work (essential things like grep/sed/awk have (sometimes very) different feature sets, flags, and runtime characteristics (for example, how exactly do they handle signals)). Default shells are also very different, though that's a pretty minor thing.

If you compare something like Debian, Alpine, and NixOS, then maybe..


I find each Linux OS that’s based around a different package manager to generally feel like a different operating system. That’s my point.

The BSDs all have a common ancestor. The Linux’s tend to all have a GNU user space, the kernels are mostly the same, but the OS layout tends to differ in important ways.


Not even close. Each BSD is it's own OS.

Is Debian a different OS from Redhat?

Can you run Debian stuff on a RedHat chroot without needing different ABI compat libraries? Yes.

Can you run FreeBSD binaries under OpenBSD? No.


With shared libraries versioning enabled it is like in this famous movie "HAL: Without your space helmet, Dave, you're going to find that rather difficult." And taken into account that it is in fashion to introduce incompatibilities even between shared libraries minor versions, more so.

This depends on the glibc version, but sure, that's a valid difference between the two.

edit: and oddly if you only go with this definition, that is Windows with WSL also a Linux OS? I'm guessing most people wouldn't say yes...


WSL2 does include full Linux kernel.

I would presume Linux OS to run Linux kernel on host OS. By default Windows runs Windows kernel.


WSL2 uses HyperV for that.

Good question. Depends how you define OS. I consider them different OSes based on the same kernel.

They have too much disparity in terms of configuration to consider them the same OS for management purposes which is my main focusat work. But I can understand if someone with another perspective feels differently.


*its

OpenBSD for laptops, VM guests, and VPSs. It has a very coherent userland, and the devs dogfood heavily, my go-to for anything I have to actually administer.

FreeBSD for servers and NAS, desktop. FreeBSD has high performance all around, ZFS, jails, bhyve, linux compatability, etc. But it's not as nice to administer as OpenBSD. I want to love it, but it's tedious.

NetBSD is an OK choice for anything, and very capable, but doesn't stand out for anything other than portability. If you enjoy hacking on things, you might find a lot of use in it.


Openbsd has consistently scored towards the bottom in all performance benchmarks that I've seen in the last few years, when compared to FreeBSD and various linuxen.

I would personally never use it for a laptop.


Scores are one thing, using it is another.

I ran OpenBSD on a Thinkpad T450 for over a year, but recently switched to OpenSUSE Tumbleweed, not because of lack of speed, but some missing applications and blutooth support.

Given I don't run a heavy desktop environment, rather just StumpWM, but still I did not in any way feel OpenBSD was slower than Linux, using the same applications.

OpenSUSE is the most solid Linux I have used so far, but OpenBSD was more to my liking setting up and maintaining. It is well thought out, simple, and... just makes sense.


>Scores are one thing, using it is another.

Indeed but I ran it on my Thinkpad and it was a sluggish mess.


When I ran it on my X200 it was simply unusable with GNOME, which isn’t giving it a fair shot yes, but it’s fine with GNOME on Trisquel and Arch.

OpenBSD has way better ACPI, power management, and less setup hassle than FreeBSD, and way cleaner and nicer out of the box than any linux distro. You don't generally have to hack on anything to get basic laptop functionality working, and the small loss of performance from mitigations, disabling SMT, etc. is really not as big a deal for me, because my laptop is used for ssh and web browsing, not compiling huge projects or playing games.

Even using it for web browsing, I found that Firefox was much slower on OpenBSD than it was on either Linux or Windows on the same hardware.

It depends on where you fall in trade-offs. OpenBSD also tend to be proactive in security and will choose security over performance enhancements. FreeBSD aims for performance. If you need a super performant desktop that is running a BSD flavor, FreeBSD is the choice. If your focus is having a secure desktop, OpenBSD is probably more up your alley. It is the age old question, you want speed, quality and quantity, but you can only choose 2, so which 2? Neither is a lesser system, they just have different priorities. For BSD, I have a preference for NetBSD, mostly because I value portability. I can take pksgrc and use it on my MacOS machine or my Linux box.

If you cared about actual security, you would use it in a laptop thanks to bioctl and full disk encryption.

OpenBSD is not really as secure as people make it out to be: https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/openbsd.html

And plenty of other OSes have FDE and everything in-between.


Really good to see hardenedbsd is being mentioned, thanks for the link.

I don't think OpenBSD's reputation for security is warranted. Their vaunted claims of only two remote holes in the default install is useless because if you're using it for a daily driver you're going well beyond the default install.

I would have to agree with with your assessment, referencing the link in the above tree and this isopenbsdsecu.re .

Not to imply I don’t like OpenBSD, I love their first class support of old architectures.


> OpenBSD for laptops

Only if you carefully pick your laptop hardware. I tried giving OpenBSD a spin as a daily driver on my XPS13 9343 and was plagued by issues:

1.) The network firmware is not included in the base OS. I had to download the firmware onto a USB storage device since the XPS doesn't have an ethernet port.

2.) 802.11ac isn't supported on my network card

3.) The login manager and window environment are unusable on a 4k screen. Trying to scale using xrandr --scale caused everything to appear fuzzy. I scoured the @misc mailing archives and could not find a suitable way to scale display without causing blur.

4.) Suspend/resume is broken and causes the kernel to panic.

5.) X.org doesn't use the inteldrm driver by default which causes choppy media playback

6.) OpenBSD puts memory limits on processes by default which causes memory hungry applications -- like web browsers -- to run choppy unless you change the memory limits.

None of these issues came up when using Ubuntu on my XPS 13. On Ubuntu it "just worked".


I haven’t used OpenBSD yet, but I found FreeBSD to be a total breeze to administer compared to Linux. You’ve gotten me very excited about OpenBSD…

I use NetBSD because I want the same OS on the things that I'm hacking on and on my development machine.

In the case of OpenBSD, it is more “drinking your own champagne” than “eating your own dog food.”

IME it depends on your use case.

If you want something you can use as a border router/firewall, OpenBSD.

If you want something for more general-purpose computing (like a desktop or home server), FreeBSD.

If you want something you can install on your toaster, NetBSD.


I think this is a bit limiting. FreeBSD's networking performance can be significantly higher than OpenBSD's (although IMO OpenBSD's pf has nicer syntax), so it's a great firewall choice.

Similarly, on desktop, OpenBSD can be pretty nice if you're a developer comfortable in the terminal; it runs the same graphics drivers as FreeBSD and Linux (other than NVIDIA). It's defaults tend to be a bit more sensible on desktop/laptops too IMO as its developers are more likely to dogfood it. There's been good progress on NetBSD desktops over the past few years as well, but I'm less familiar with it, so I can't comment too much.

With regards to portability, NetBSD supports more systems, but often I've found that OpenBSD is a little bit more stable on the ones they do support as they insist on not using cross compilation: so every system they do support is at least stable enough to build itself, which is a good stress test, especially on older machines.


If you are looking to dip your toe in and have a tinker with BSD, FreeBSD is probably the best place to start because it has spread of compatibility.

But if you are looking for more focused projects, then Dragonfly for best out of box desktop experience, openbsd for security and firewall, and netbsd for compatibility and portability across loads of devices.


I'd recommend trying one of the big three. If you value performance, FreeBSD. If you like a really well-documented, simple, coherent system, OpenBSD. If you've got a real tinkerer mindset, NetBSD--like, kernel extensions in Lua, run it on anything you can find with a processor in it.

They're all good. I wouldn't over-complicate it. Just look at the one with known strengths that most match what you most value and dip in. A lot of the knowledge crosses over if you want to try other ones anyway, they're all related.


This is why I've setup my homelab with a hypervisor, you don't have to choose and can run each of these operating systems, for specific purposes they are best suited for. This is what I do:

OpenIndiana: file server (ZFS)

OpenBSD: firewall, router, network services (DHCP, DNS, NAT)

DragonflyBSD: game server

FreeBSD: other general application services

I haven't found a personal use case for NetBSD yet, though I would like to (it is great for embedded systems).


Is OpenIndiana really better than FreeBSD or ZFS on Linux today? I’ve had a pretty great experience using ZFS with NixOS but I’m curious if I’m missing anything.

Yeah I think using ZFS on even Linux is fine now since they’re using the same code base at this point.(IME Ubuntu has the most painless experience as it ships with the kernel by default.)

Which hypervisor are you using for that? I used to run Xen for a similar purpose, but I ended up just running normal debian with a bunch of lxc containers instead after dealing with some Xen issues that were difficult to unravel.

ESXi (free version), it works well though if I had to do it again from scratch today, I'd probably go with KVM

Tried Proxmox?

Or SmartOS?

Why did you choose DragonflyBSD for the game server vs. another BSD?

Also, which games? curious what is easily hosted on BSD :)

Which games are you hosting on dragonfly, and is the performance actually better than freebsd?

"All of them" is an interesting answer.

They all feel different, I would encourage you to install each in a VM and play around and see which one you like the best.

Try them all. Or as a start, try any. You can eventually try them all.

If you are looking for a great server system give Omnios/Smartos and other Illumos distributions a try. Rock solid, well engineered and legitimately fun to tinker with. OpenIndiana is the desktop option, heard a lot, but i have no experience myself.

I'm quite fond of Dragonfly BSD. It's a pleasure to use, well documented and hammerfs seems pretty decent.

It's not like there's not 42 different flavors of Linux...


Any BSD fans out there wish to persuade a happy Debian desktop user to take a BSD for a spin?

Linux systems are made by dozens of disparate teams, and it shows. Every command has a different syntax - just think about how "help" could be -h, --help, -help, -? etc

BSDs are very tightly integrated. The entire OS is very consistent and 'correct', down to the tiny and pedantic details like putting things under /usr that are usually installed in /bin, because that's the way it's supposed to be. (Ex. `/usr/local/bin/bash`)

Think of it like reading Wikipedia, no matter which page you read it seems like it was written by the same person. That's the kind of consistency that OpenBSD intends to create.


Just to clarify, Bash is installed under /usr/local because it’s from packages and not part of the base system.

The base shell, ksh, is at /bin/ksh.

You probably know that but I just felt like being pedantic this morning :).


...and that ksh descended from pdksh, and is distributed as the oksh portable project here:

https://github.com/ibara/oksh

The MirBSD Korn Shell also descended from pdksh, and it can be found here:

http://www.mirbsd.org/mksh.htm

I don't know about the feature differences and code quality between these two; they both implement most of ksh88, and a small amount of ksh93.

I prefer mksh when I need something more than a POSIX shell.


Yes, absolutely true. The idea is that `ksh` is good enough, and the extra features of bash are extraneous or unnecessary, making it an add-on rather than a core feature.

It's an interesting idea, and while I feel bash is absolutely 'good enough' to be part of the base system, I wouldn't want zsh or fish part of my base system - so it's then a matter of opinion whose shell is bloat and whose is essential. So I respect their decision to not include bash in the base image - it's meant to be uncompromisingly lean and simple.


Another issue is size. This is what I see on CentOS:

    $ ls -l /bin/bash /bin/dash /bin/mksh
    -rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 964536 Nov 22  2019 /bin/bash
    -rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 113536 Nov  5  2018 /bin/dash
    -rwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 296192 Jan 27  2018 /bin/mksh
The Debian Almquist shell has nearly nothing beyond POSIX (I believe that local function variables are the only extension). This is the Ubuntu system shell, and it tolerates no bashisms. Alternate POSIX shell implementations in OCaml (and somewhat ADA) accuse Almquist of not using formal grammars and imply that dash is not a safe implementation.

https://www.irif.fr/_media/rencontres/pps2018/regis-gianas.p...

I would say that mksh implements 80% of bash functionality in much less space, and closely follows ksh88; mksh is also licensed such that Android uses it as /bin/sh.

Apple has switched from bash to zsh. I don't know the motivations for this, but preferences for shells wax and wane. BSD doesn't include bash (in base) more because of license than code quality.

POSIX seems to be all that we can agree on, but I do wish that standard could grow; it's stuck in the '70s.


Apple avoids GPLv3-licensed software, which may explain why they continue to ship an older version of bash (3.2, the last GPLv2 version). Eventually they must have decided that was too outdated to keep as the default shell and switched to zsh, which has an MIT-derived license.

> Apple has switched from bash to zsh. I don't know the motivations for this

GPLv3 vs BSD or MIT license. I lived zsh anyway, switched some of my BSD shells to it afterwards.


I love zsh but it’s history doesn’t segregate based on the tty and it locks up a lot during autocompletion for me (on Ubuntu.)

I'm using it without any plugins and disabled autocompletion anyway, because it just gets in the way irrespective of the shell. Like not completing tar filenames if it doesn't like the extension (tar axvf) even if the file is there. Modren distributions 'helpfully' enable completion by default.

I don't like the fact that you have no way to clear the history buffer if you've accidentally dropped a password at the prompt. Bash has history -c. I don't have shared history enabled, you could unset that and it'll stop segregating.

Anyway, zsh is a lot more versatile and familiar than tcsh for instance, so it's almost always my go to shell on FreeBSD as /bin/sh is quite limited, but also miles ahead of the Debian shell regarding features.


This is not typically the default setting in zsh (it is if it’s acting like ksh.) Your distributor has probably “helpfully” set it up this way. man zshoptions and look for “SHARE_HISTORY”.

It's Ubuntu 18.04 with Oh My Zsh

And that would make me switch from Linux why exactly?

Don't get me wrong, I was a BSD user for many years (FreeBSD 3.5-5.0) but I don't think that's enough reason to switch.


Reason for my switch was that some key things (for me) were designed in a way that seemed more right that on linux and this is totally subjective opinion.

I am still running ubuntu on laptop and will switch when the next install is a thing, but I am running freebsd on server for years now and while i tremble on each update for the laptop, I dont for freebsd, even when updating from 12.x to 13.x.

Based on years of experience on both operating systems. I was surprised only once when freebsd made change where the base network settings weren't by default copied into fibs (you wont encounter this... probably ever) and even then I needed an hour to figure what the change was.

On the other side, I no longer count the nasty surprises the linux distributions played on me (like /etc/resolv.conf being overwritten by systemd resolv, just as trivial change). My laptop is unbootable for a year as they messed something regarding the order of zpool import (bpool being imported before rpool - probably a race condition) so i have to import it manually or it doesnt boot, while I have freebsd zfs root for ~10 years and it never failed me.

Details like that made me insecure about linux. And on the other side, made me highly secure about freebsd.

I think that (again, this is subjective, speaking only for myself)...

I... trust... BSD... guys. Based on experience.

I... dont trust linux... distributions. Based on experience.

But it might just be me.


Not to be that guy, but your Linux complaints sound like systemd complaints.

Not sure the teething process has finished there, but I share the sentiment.


Naah, systemd is not bothering me at all, i dont have issues if they change the way how resolve information is stored.

What bothers me that the old way is still there (/etc/resolv.conf) while it is being generated by systemd. I can accept the change where the dns information is stored. Fine, it is no longer the same file, I dont care. While on the other side, if I get parallel mechanism, that is keeping the old, this is really an annoyance. That is hard to identify.

The ZFS has nothing to do with systemd and I havent even touched stuff like jails/lxc, byhve/kvm, memory consumption, quality of code,... as I have said it, it is subjective and it is about trust into operating system. Linux distributions dont have it. They blew it just too many times. BSD didnt.

It is hard to be objective there, just try the BSD. And please do report your findings.


It made me switch from Linux.

If it doesn't sound compelling to you, that's okay too, Linux is great. But I do think focusing on the consistency of design really is the best high-level summary of the difference between Linux and OpenBSD.


Consistency is great, but there's no equivalent to NixOS for the BSDs -- that I know of.

Am I actually wrong about that? Is there some declarative configuration system I should be using, which I've simply never heard of?


There are a couple issues tracking FreeBSD support for Nix [0,1], the package manager indicating it works there. Depending on the level of integration you want that might be sufficient, that would already be enough to generate the system config files for example, but to get the sort of integration you get on NixOS with different generations and the ability to rollback at boot would require more work. This would look something more like nix-darwin [2] than NixOS really.

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if OpenBSD works too, I might spin up a VM and see...

[0] https://github.com/NixOS/nix/issues/3280

[1] https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/81459

[2] https://github.com/LnL7/nix-darwin


I was actually looking into this as well. I recently switched my server to NixOS and the declarative configuration has been really nice to work with and fits easily into my workflow/tools (emacs with tramp).

I’d be really interested in seeing a variant on top of openbsd that has a comparable declarative layer. If anyone knows of such projects, please share!


I think we're talking about different definitions of consistency.

In the BSD context, consistancy is that human effort has been put in to get the userspace to look similar. Similar behavior of command line tools, similar documentation, similar configuration, etc.

It looks like you're talking about consistancy of packages across installs, which is a totally different issue.


No, that's the sort of consistency I was thinking of. I simply want that and all the niceties I'd get from NixOS.

Why is that "the way it's supposed to be," and how is it going to improve my user experience? It just seems like unnecessary complexity to me.

When things are consistent, less mental effort goes into remembering arbitrary differences.

I would recommend FreeBSD if you were going to try one of them. The BSD experience a bit like using linux was like 15 years ago. Online DRM for sites like Netflix will not work for example. Specifically in the case of FreeBSD the filesystem is well curated and cohesive, if you feel a file ought to be in a certain location it is usually there. Additionally the manpages and docs are a joy to read.

I'm less familiar with OpenBSD but it is similar in terms of prioritising being a cohesive operating system and docs. Some design choices the team have made for reasons such as security make the system feel sluggish by modern standards, even compared to other BSDs. You might get a lot of mileage out of it if you enjoy old school C programming and reading the source code for coreutils libraries.


>prioritising being a cohesive operating system and docs

This is one of the areas where OpenBSD really shines. Their documentation is really good. FreeBSD is also quite good, but I've been consistently impressed with OpenBSD's docs since 2.5.

Linux distros can't reach the same level of quality due to being less cohesive at the base, though they do make up for it with quantity. You can search for most Linux issues and find an answer.


Arch was the most BSD-ish when I tried it a few years back

This is usually said about Slackware. (It uses the BSD style init system.)

I got FreeBSD running on a Raspberry PI. It isn't too hard to install and get up and running. I primarily use FreeBSD on the Pi for ARM assembly programming. All BSDs are great for devs.

ooc why didn't you try NetBSD? Isn't running on every little device kinda their wheelhouse?

I did try NetBSD first on the Pi but the install wasn't working for me. Getting FreeBSD up and running on the Raspberry Pi was a lot less painful. If I really want to kick around NetBSD I can run an instance of it in GNU Boxes on one of my Linux boxes.

I find this angle quite interesting. Once a system clears that bar of "it works pretty well and does what I need" stuff like documentation and a well ordered experience is what's matters. Not what's under the hood in terms of code.

This speaks to the need for non-coders taking part in open-source projects.


I love OpenBSD because it is as close to "just works" as it gets in an ideal world. I love using it for my personal website because it is very easy to get a proper overview over the OS as a whole and because it comes with some of my favourite pieces of software and all I need for a personal website is part of the system: httpd, pf etc. Also OpenBSD has some of the best docs out there, I rarely need to websearch anything.

Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world, so I rarely get to spin up OpenBSD outside of that due to a number of reasons like a lack of filesystems for interoperability (USB media) and firmware drivers (got to be specific in the hardware you buy for it).


You’re obviously curious and want to try it, or you wouldn’t have posted that, so why not go for it? You have nothing to lose.

For me the coolest thing about OpenBSD is it’s the simplest OS that is still of practical use (i.e., not counting ones that are purely for research or education). So if you’re curious about how any part of the system works, it’s easy to just dive into /usr/src and figure it out. It’s also entirely configured via simple text files rather than some opaque systemd monstrosity.


systemd is configured via simple text files

What simple text file is, for example, the list of WiFi SSIDs to try to connect to stored in?

/etc/systemd/network/25-wireless.network

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/systemd-networkd#network_fi...

But simple i would not call it...compared to bsd ;)


I believe this is incorrect. Systemd-networkd handles layer-3 routing and some amount of layer-2 stuff (MAC addresses, etc), but it doesn't handle wifi connections. Wifi connections are handled by wpa_supplicant (the older, and still more common wifi daemon) or iwd (newer, but not yet widely adopted).

The vast majority of users control wpa_supplicant indirectly through NetworkManager, so it's not widely known that it can be configured using simple text files. But it can! On Arch linux, the default config file location (for network card wlan0) is: /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa_supplicant-wlan0.conf.

iwd is similarly straightforward to configure using text files. Using the CLI front-end is typically a nicer experience, since you get to pick the SSID from scan results and you get quick feedback if you mess up the password. But if you want to do it manually, just create one file per wifi network (containing SSID, password, etc) in /var/lib/iwd/.


This file does not exist on my rather plain ubuntu 20.04 LTS.

I tried finding similarly named files, to no avail. Knowing the notorious ADHD of the systemd developership, I wouldn't be surprised if this file is moved, renamed, and uses a different format every six months.


/lib/systemd/network

http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/focal/man5/systemd.netwo...

or

find / -name '*.network'

But yeah, BSD's would have them at one place -> /etc ...linux-distro standardization is a terrible mess.


That's not a systemd thing, that's a distro thing. The default path is where it gets put if it's part of the base system, if it's installed from a package or if the distro makers decide to change it (because maintainers forks of projects often change things) it'll be elsewhere. But the systemd project doesn't control that.

EG Debian's systemd fork puts it in /lib/systemd/network/ (and lots of other network files in /usr/lib/systemd/network/).


How are remote updates in Ubuntu configured by text file under systemd?

Remote Updates..systemd? Do you mean apt?

/etc/apt/apt.conf.d/

https://wiki.debian.org/UnattendedUpgrades


I don't know, I don't use distributions with imperative state management.

I don't care that much about the security claims but I have to acknowledge that they are probably true to some extent. I value OpenBSD most for its minimalism. The OpenBSD project seems to have managed to avoid the feature bloat that other systems are now suffering from. You have to learn it, but there is not a lot there to learn.

Once you figure out how to set it up then the audio just works. That is a killer feature compared to the situation I had to deal with when I was doing Debian on the desktop.


Im a life long linux user and decided to use FreeBSD as a platform for my most recent hobby project. It was surpising how enlightening it was to use a different tool. It does somethings the same way, somethings different, what was most pleasant was discovering the things it did better. I don't think you can read about it, really worth experiencing this.

I've been running OpenBSD more than 15 years, and it does have a learning curve.

One area to consider as a happy Debian desktop user is using OpenBSD as a router OS. PC Engines (I have no affiliation to them) makes a very nice router called "Alix" and OpenBSD works well on it. Previously, people were installing it on Soekris routers before they went out of business.

OpenBSD's firewall pf is by far my favorite, and it and OpenBSD have a lot of nice networking features and tools to tinker with. It's free of blobs (in the default install), free of known bugs (in the default install--but generally your router will work well with only the default install), and configured to be reasonably secure by default. The documentation is also frequently praised.

How many other modern, full-fledged, well-maintained and open code OSes run in 32 Mb of RAM?


ALIX is EOL. Nowadays you'll want to use their APU (excellent too).

I recently built my latest server in FreeBSD just to get some hard experience with it...

...and I love it! Documentation is generally excellent, readable, and centralized. There are only a dozen or two processes running on a fresh system without much of anything installed, and idle CPU usage is the zeroyist zero I've ever seen for a server OS. The directory structure in `man hier` is actually used, and it feels like the surface area of what I have to learn to be proficient is sooooooooooo much smaller. It's not perfect (home and end keys don't work consistently) but definitely a breath of fresh air.

Plus, many programs (ezjail, for example) integrate tightly with ZFS, which is also awesome. I know linux finally got quality ZFS support but BSD (along with solaris) are OG

Plus, now I am learning a great deal about how MacOS is built.

Funny enough, I have a DJ controller (Pioneer XDJ-XZ) that uses BSD for its operating system. So it seems to be a great embedded audio OS as well!


This link is for OpenBSD but I have the most experience with FreeBSD. Reasons to try out a BSD, even FreeBSD:

1. ZFS -- by far and away the best filesystem there is. (A hella partisan take but try it out and you'll likely fall in love like the rest of us did)

2. The handbook. The handbook is gold. It's up there with some of the best documentation available.

3. Less fragmentation. The BSDs have 3 main derivatives: NetBSD, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD. (There are others but these are the main)

4. If you like LXD then you'll love Jails.

5. The BSD license. (If being the most free means something to you. I kind of like it but maybe this isn't a selling point.)

6. Can be rolling or used in an LTS fashion. It's rather easy to track -current all the time or just stick with a stable release and do periodic binary package updates.


I can only comment on OpenBSD. It’s a minimal unix system. I like the minimalism. OpenBSD is mainly a router/server/firewall system but you can use OpenBSD on a desktop. If your hardware is supported everything works out of the box. Firefox/Chromium have pledge/unveil security which prevent them from accessing your file system. Something like apparmor but works put of the box. However it’s not designed as a desktop system (installing a browser introduces many security risks). They have some additional security features like encrypted swap and others. In terms of security, the OpenBSD kernel is a lot smaller than the linux kernel. Can’t have holes in code that doesn’t exist. All together it’s just a minimal small unix system.

If you want to use it on the desktop, you can use it for basic surfing or 90s video games. I’m using it for fun mainly. There is no jails / docker / virtualbox so I don’t use it for coding.

OpenBSD isn’t really a desktop OS, desktop users typically use FreeBSD because there are many more packages. FreeBSD is a completely different OS.


>basic surfing

With recent versions of chrome/firefox and 3d acceleration on amd/intel graphics, you're not limited to "basic surfing".

The only reason I can think of that you would say that is that perhaps you do e.g. have an NVIDIA card (why...) and thus you're stuck with no accelerated graphics.


After learning some things (see my umask comment etc, elsewhere here on this page, and my way around the FAQs etc), I have found it very useful for my desktop and am happy with it. Even before I learned things like tmux and fvwm, xfce etc worked nicely.

(Having said that, my needs might be atypical.)

Edit/ps: last I knew, it had something like 10_000 binary packages available, in addition to the base system.


>If you want to use it on the desktop, you can use it for basic surfing or 90s video games

Why? You have PPSSPP, Dolphin, maybe some current-gen emulators, and lots of sourc ports. And fnaify for Mono games.

https://playonbsd.com/shopping_guide/


There is virtualization with vmm: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq16.html

I used open BSD for a little while. It's very simple, clean, and elegantly designed. If you're looking to learn more about Unix, then you'll have a lot of fun with OpenBSD.

If you want to use it as a daily driver, you're probably going to run into some headaches. That being said, if you're willing to put in some time, learn a little bit and forgo some software here and there, you certainly *could* use OpenBSD as a daily driver. One really cool thing about OpenBSD is that the OpenBSD devs use the OS as their daily driver.

You'll likely keep hearing about how good the OpenBSD man pages are. I always thought this was a weird thing to mention and make a big deal about. But holy crap, the OpenBSD documentation is amazing. Reading it has definitely made my own documentation at work significantly better.

The downside? There are a couple. The biggest two are that, 1) you're not going to find a lot of the software you might normally use; and 2) The performance is not great and battery life is not very good.


> If you want to use it as a daily driver, you're probably going to run into some headaches

This all depends on the hardware you bring to the table. A random Acer laptop with a questionable ACPI table is probably going to have problems, but a previous-gen Thinkpad X1 should be great because that's what the devs use.

> you're not going to find a lot of the software you might normally use

This really depends on your use cases – I can do most of the development I want on my OpenBSD laptop. But there are some gaps, absolutely.

> The performance is not great and battery life is not very good.

Harder to argue this one. It's getting better release by release, though :)


Playing with OpenBSD will be a learning experience. For me, that's usually enough to install something on a non-daily driver machine.

Are you a software engineer or CS student? If so, I'd say that OpenBSD really shines in code simplicity, clarity, and consistency. This is also a matter of taste. What drew me in initially was the quality and consistency of the kernel source code, consistent high standards in documentation, and the design of system interfaces and libraries.

I like being able to answer my own questions and I find that easier in OpenBSD than in Linux. Sometimes I sit for hours and simply flip back and forth between documentation and code exploring how things work. I feel that this level of consistency and availability of information within the system feed creative urges on my part.

I like to write code and I feel like I have an easier time doing that in OpenBSD than Linux (again, a matter of tastes.) This is in large part because my workflow tends to happen at the terminal.

I would be surprised to find that VSCode, Slack, Discord, and other electron-y applications can be made to work in OpenBSD at all... maybe they do, but I've never felt the need to try, so if they don't I'm fine with that.

I think OpenBSD is well adapted to a specific kind of user and a specific kind of problems. If you're paranoid, or a developer, or just like the terminal window, or prefer design consistency over broad compatibility and feature variety, you might find that you really enjoy using OpenBSD.

By all means, give it a spin if for no other reason than to learn about a thing that's out there that a bunch of people enjoy.

If OpenBSD is not for you, that's okay too. I don't think that the user base, developers, or community have ever been looking run campaigns aimed at growing the popularity of the system. For me that's a good thing, the developers seem less prone to chasing the next thing that will expand their share in a market, and are more focused on making a thing they want to use - which translates well for me. YMMV.


Coherency, security, stability, ZFS... Perfect on a server (e.g. a VPS), may not be as good as a desktop or as something to run on a laptop (depending on hardware).

> Coherency, security, stability, ZFS...

My only sort of complaint in regards to FreeBSD is actually ZFS. Not that it's not fantastic, or that it shouldn't be there. ZFS does however clearly comes from Solaris, and there have been no effort to make the ZFS command line tools feel more BSD like.

Changing the tooling around ZFS probably isn't a great idea, but coherency has clearly taken a backseat to features in this case.


> Changing the tooling around ZFS probably isn't a great idea, but coherency has clearly taken a backseat to features in this case.

Right, because ZFS is a foreign piece of software that runs on other operating systems. At that point you are better off keeping those tools coherent with other ZFS implementations. This is a good compromise.


It's coherent with the other ZFS implementations in Linux and Solaris.

Likewise, apropos storage systems that handle logical volume management, Linux's LVM tools are extremely reminiscent of those from HP-UX[0], and NetBSD's LVM guide explicitly calls out their tooling being built from Linux's lvm2tools[1].

There's a modest amount of precedent for this kind of thing.

0: lvcreate(1M) from HP-UX 11i https://nixdoc.net/man-pages/HP-UX/man1/lvcreate.1m.html

1: http://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-lvm.html


> ZFS

NB: Not on OpenBSD.


> Coherency

What does this refer to in this context?


Things are where you’d expect, patterns and conventions cary on throughout the system, etc… Vs the disjoint feeling linux has.

Part of the job of a Linux distribution is to provide policy, conventions, and similar consistency.

If you install everything from sources directly, or directly from upstream vendors, you may get inconsistencies, but if you install everything from your Linux distribution, you should get reasonable consistency, just as if you install everything from your BSD distribution.


even in a distro, you'll get various syntax variations for instance

Syntax of what?

cli programs, they all have different ways to handle arguments, options, help

ps: another instance, albeit not a BSD strength either, would be data format, every output is different, I, like a few people too wanted some json as pivot representation to cut the thousands of papercuts, that kind of uniformity is what I expect from "system"


Lots (just some? most? I haven't really used it much) of FreeBSD system utilities are using libxo for output, so you can use e.g.

    ps --libxo json
and get json output, or xml/html

I didn't know bsd already adopted it, only heard a few passing mentions. That's great, though, and note that I mostly meant that about linux.

I already have that with Linux.

Be curious; learn it. Figure out pros/cons for yourself. You'll have more breadth of knowledge, more depth in specific areas, and will likely make better architecture choices in the future because of it.

No why? If your happy an you know it, clap your hands.

But if you want to try out something else, clap your hand and start installing, why?

https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2020/09/07/quare-freebsd/


I use Debian and love OpenBSD.

This has a rather deep philosophical basis.

Savaged by systemd

Definitely try it in a VM first or at least image your Debian drive before going at it. You are going to miss your perfectly working Debian install

Easy: text log files, text config files, no systemd.

OpenBSD WireGuard VPN servers make me happy.

Just see this:

https://www.openbsd.org/goals.html

But if your video is Nvidia, you are out of luck until they open their drivers.


From https://www.openbsd.org/goals.html

>Be as politics-free as possible; solutions should be decided on the basis of technical merit.

Someone has the wisdom to put this in nearly 20 years ago.


OpenBSD split from NetBSD years ago for political reasons. So it isn't a surprise that 20 years ago politics and the issues thereof were high on everyone's mind.

>OpenBSD split from NetBSD years ago for political reasons.

I was naive in thinking it was always about the focus on priorities, as in Security vs NetBSD's portability. So I decided to read up on it [1]. Since Wiki seems to be purposely quiet / unclear on the incident.

Turns out Open Source Politics isn't that much different 25 years later.

[1] https://www.theos.com/deraadt/coremail.html


Theo de Raadt wanted to make security the number one priority and the NetBSD team did not. So Theo de Raadt forked NetBSD in order to create OpenBSD which would become security first. It was a political decision. My source on that is a NetBSD kernel dev.

That would assume that OpenBSD is secure the first place.

Nothing is 100% secure.

Everyone is out of luck until NVIDIA open their drivers. I am sure their proprietary ones are complete garbage, for compatibility and application-specific tweaks. I wish more open source systems and progress tell them the same thing that Linus did.

I used to use CentOS for all my Linux servers, but that's no longer an option of course.

I've been using Vmware PhotonOS for Docker host VMs, and I'm pretty happy with it.

For everything else though... I'm thinking Ubuntu, but I'm not sure. Might a *BSD be a good option? Does it have any real advantages over Linux? Or any drawbacks for that matter?


CentOS Stream is a perfectly fine option and the practical differences from classic CentOS are insignificant for most users, especially people who are just running a homelab.

But if it makes you uncomfortable there's always Rocky or Alma Linux.


Major drawbacks are closed-source applications intended for RedHat. These might work with some kind of binary emulation, but the vendor will never support it.

My focus would be database. Microsoft's binary ODBC libraries and Oracle Instant Client are Linux binaries. FreeTDS and Oracle SQLcl/JDBC are options on a BSD, but there are drawbacks, as there likely would be with any binary packages.

I know that both RedHat and Oracle will migrate an installed CentOS to their platforms (RedHat does it more violently, by replacing every installed package). Alma & Rocky might also be migration options.


"that's no longer an option of course." why?

On account of CentOS, in "standard" Linux form, being dead.

I don't want to run CentOS Stream.


So run Rocky or Alma? They're both binary compatible versions of RHEL8. If you're already used to the Enterprise Linux ecosystem, there's no point in switching away from it entirely just because of CentOS stream, unless you're just interested in trying something new.

Time to upgrade the T-series SPARCs. Nice to have a free modern OS to keep that amazing hardware still in usable state.

For learning I used FreeBSD at my university to do some work with the kernel. I would be interested to hear more about someone's experience if having used all three, Ubuntu, OpenBSD, FreeBSD.

1) For VM Desktop Usage on a laptop 2) Server only.


Super impressed with all the work going on in BSD to support and make it work on M1 macs.

I can’t believe this is free. Glad I support the BSDs with the pittance every month that I can but wow amazing work.


Not yet as it seems.

Exactly, everyone knows it's not official until the artwork is out.

The song is the important stuff, if there is no song you should jump that release.

For generations the people of the artwork have been at war with the people of the song.

Yes, since the "Shut up and Hack" release had some long lyrics. It's a cold war since then ;)

Released Oct 14, 2021. (51st OpenBSD release)

https://cdn.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.0/amd64/


I'm well aware, but still not official (no artwork released for example)

But the "Style Hymn" :)

https://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html#70

But hey, if the Artwork is the release point for you, that's fine with me ;)


Also the homepage is a bit of a giveaway:

> The current release is OpenBSD 6.9, released May 1, 2021.


Press the Download button and be amazed ;)

But no release for you, until homepage is.


Did the sysupgrade on one server and the home page looks to be updated now.

Can anyone comment on how hardware support is these days? The last BSD I tried (4.4) wasn't that great with my laptop at the time

Since timeout(1) was imported I can pkg_delete coreutils, nice. Lots of other goodies too.

Where/how do you use it? The description is pretty straightforward:

https://man.openbsd.org/timeout.1

But it's not something I'd miss - unless it's used in some scripts I'm unaware of..


With a port of Dlang :-)

But no Rust, it seems.

(Wouldn't it be nice if the most secure OS was (re)written in the safest language available today?)


IIRC, Theo was (is?) against using rust because rust hasn't seen real world usage and coreutils hasn't been written in rust (according to him). When someone pointed out how there's RedoxOS and uutils, coreutils written in rust, he went on to question their POSIX compliance and whether memory safety was really a thing.

So yeah, I doubt rust is ever coming to OpenBSD. I'm also skeptical about the level of adoption rust will see in the Linux kernel. People are usually resistant to change (sometimes for good reasons).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er44ur7wkXQ&t=2107


The OpenBSD people value both security and simplicity — I doubt that they would adopt Rust system-wide.

What init system do the *BSDs use? Is systemd an option?

systemd doesn't support anything but Linux, as it is designed around Linux-specific APIs.

OpenBSD uses a really simple rc.d to get going:

* https://www.bsdcan.org/2016/schedule/attachments/337_bsdcan-...


*YES*, systemd is an option. It is not the default.

https://lobste.rs/s/jx3cr6/initware_systemd_fork_runs_on_ope...


I'm the first to admit that I'm ignorant of the facts here, but seeing that a systemd fork ran on OpenBSD for the first time two months ago does not give me confidence that it's "an option" in the sense that you can trust it to work well.

And to be pedantic (this is an OpenBSD thread, after all), it's not "systemd", it's a fork of systemd called "InitWare", and the GitHub repo describes it as "alpha software".

Someone also pointed out in the discussion you linked that it doesn't seem to include journald. Here's a relevant PR: https://github.com/InitWare/InitWare/pull/27


Pretty much this. SystemD was inspired by LaunchD on MacOS and was written as a clean room implementation of something in the spirit of LaunchD. InitWare is essentially an init system inspired by SystemD.

They all borrow one from Slackware Linux.

Is this a joke or is there some interesting tidbit here? Both?

definitely not.

My main use for OpenBSD is as a firewall/router, and they frequently make breaking changes to the pf rule syntax so I had to abandon it. Last breaking change when I checked was July, but it's been going on for many years. If you have one firewall no big deal, but if you set them up for customers all over the place it's a nightmare. They should take a page out of Microsoft's book here.

"My main use for OpenBSD is as a firewall/router, and they frequently make breaking changes to the pf rule syntax so I had to abandon it."

Uhm... well, I've been using it since 3.0 (when pf was introduced) and its been very stable. You have at least 6 months to convert your pf and its never taken me more than a day to get it changed. Its well documented and frankly, even with all the horror stories, I've found friendly help each time I had a question (do read the manual before asking a question). Looking at your firewall rules every 6 months isn't exactly stressful.


I don’t think most people would agree that breaking changes every 6 months fits the definition of “stable” for a firewall.

They don't change it every six months. You look in the release notes and check if anything changed. Heck, there have been years where no changes were required.

Breaking changes do not occur every 6 months. The OS is upgraded every 6 months. Sometimes there are new features. Once in a while a line or two in your pf.conf may need to be changed as a new feature is added.

Frequently is very subjective. Sometimes you have to make way for progress. I’ve been using pf since 3.0 and the syntax changes have been minimal and, I’d say, always for the better and to make a drastic improvement.

>They should take a page out of Microsoft's book here

Yeah NO.

OpenBSD is the opposite of backward compatibility by design.

You should have known that before installing at your customers site en masse.

That's probably one point why PFsense is based on freebsd and OPNsense on hardenedbsd.


^^ The wording of this response represents exactly why many people don't choose OpenBSD.

Yes, but you say that as if it was a universally bad thing. OpenBSD is largely made by its developers, for its developers. It has its own unique culture and does not seek mass appeal. To many – such as myself – this is refreshing, in particular when you contrast it to how poor open source developers are scolded on GitHub by entitled users for not putting in more of their free labour to satisfy their requirements. Is it for everyone? No and that is fine. You are always free to fork it or enjoy the fruits of their labour from a distance, such as with OpenSSH, tmux, etc. that work just as well for OSs which may have a culture closer to your taste (and that is also equally fine).

> OpenBSD is largely made by its developers, for its developers. It has its own unique culture and does not seek mass appeal.

I wish these kind of caveats were highlighted more often, not only when it comes to OpenBSD but also when it comes to anything regarding Linux. Instead, you have people defending why the way how OpenBSD works is the "right" way.

I'm honestly somewhat surpised at seeing how much people are attached and married to their tools.


They make a good point though. OpenBSD is not known for it's stability.

I was referring not to the content of the comment, but the wording of its delivery.

That one?

>>They should take a page out of Microsoft's book here.

or mine?

>You should have known that before installing at your customers site en masse.

Sorry for stating a fact that you should know your OS before sprinkle it all over your customers.


Honestly that is a compliment. When it comes to evaluating tech, the best statements are those where you can walk away knowing very clearly that yes, this meets my needs, or no this absolutely does not meet my needs.

Let that not hear Linus and his wording.

Indeed.

Last time I gave a look at OpenBSD I immediately noticed a huge courtain of gatekeeping around pretty much anything.

Meh.


Why don't you check NetBSD's npf? It's not yet as featured as pf but will be. And NetBSD is a very stable system.



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