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Ask HN: What has been your most profitable side/weekend project to date?
181 points by riskish on July 23, 2011 | hide | past | web | favorite | 156 comments

NewsBlur - http://www.newsblur.com - a visual RSS feed reader with intelligence. I have a few hundred paying users and a few thousands free users. I develop it almost entirely on the train, which I'm on for almost an hour and a half everyday.

It's a ton of work and is profitable in the sense that the hundreds of dollars a month in server costs are just a bit more than covered by the premium users. But otherwise, it did help land me a number of great connections, both in NYC and SF, where I just moved.

I code in the open. NewsBlur is entirely on GitHub: http://github.com/samuelclay. The iPhone app I'm working on is also there, so some folks use it as a way to send me issues, others go so far as to add their own pet features. It's kind of neat to see a community spring up around the code itself.

Very cool UI. May I ask what laptop you use for coding on the train? I spend ~2 hrs on the train everyday and have been trying to figure out what would be a good laptop to code on. I realize personal preferences play a role, but it seems like large laptop is a hassle to hold, and a small one is difficult to code on because of the smaller screen space.

A 15" MacBook Pro. So I bike 4 miles with this thing strapped to my back, then hop on the train (Caltrain, where bikes are treated like kings). I think I just got used to schlepping 5.5 lbs. around.

I recently came from NYC where I would use the same laptop on the A train. 15" is exactly the width of my legs and the seat, so I would comfortably take up my area, but no larger. I can't work on a dinky 13" screen, so 15" or bust for me.

I just wanna say: This is an awesome site! Love the idea, design and execution. It's also open on GitHub, couldn't ask for more. Great Job...

http://whatportis.com - fairly simple little project, need to remove some of the Ajax and add content to get it more search engine friendly, however makes $xxx/pm as it is.

Awesome UI on that website. Also, your dog.

Yeah, Shiloh pulls her weight.

Clean Up Your Mess (http://www.visualmess.com/) is just a mini visual design tutorial and not a product, but it was a side project and it's made a few hundred bucks from amazon ads. I did not intend to make money from it, so it was nice surprise that I did.

The OP asked about profitable side/weekend projects. This is a project I worked on on the side, and it made money. So why did my comment get downvoted?

Most awesome to-the-point short web design booklet, I bookmarked it the first time I saw it on HN some moths ago and visit religiously. I lost the bookmark at some point and made great efforts to find the site again. Great job. (I'm a programmer not designer but I like the instant gratification of the booklet. It's similar in feeling to http://bonsaiden.github.com/JavaScript-Garden/ for JS)

Thank you! I worked very hard to keep it short and useful, and it's nice to see that appreciated. Thanks, too, for the link to JavaScript Garden. I've only scanned it, but I love the table of contents and I know that will come in handy.

Beats me. It's a cool project, my guess is there's a lot more money to be made there.

How many people are visiting the page? I am curious to hear how much a well-targeted Amazon ad can extract from a visitor.

During the month where I made about $277, I had around 80k visitors.

Just to throw a stat out there, my forum gets 80k visitors and makes $1,000/month in Adsense revenue. And a good portion of those visitors are super-repeats that are blind to the banner ad.

I only have 1 side project, which is a utility for Windows laptops (a battery meter). It does about $1500 to $2k per month in sales. I've been thinking about expanding it to have a Enterprise (B2B) product.

I'm trying to get another idea I have into a startup, but I haven't been able to get that off the ground.

Where do you sell such apps?

I just have a website. It's almost all word-of-mouth, blog posts, and people posting on forums recommending it that drives traffic. I do some Google Ads.

How much does the app cost? Are these one-time sales? If so, what's your best source of customers?

It's a one-time sale. It's a freemium model. You can download the app and get limited functionality. You can purchase for $10 the "Pro" version which is a serial number that unlocks the advanced features.

For a while I was doing cheaper time-limited licenses, like $1 for 6 months, $2 for 1 year, etc and $10 for lifetime.

Best source of customers is from free users. I started the app as free until version 3.0 when I switched to freemium. Sales have been fairly consistent each month for years, with spikes when a blog picks it up.

are you the guy who makes battery meter? because that is seriously the best $7 i have ever spent.

If you're referring to BatteryBar, then, yes, I do. I'd love any way you could help get the word out. If anyone has thoughts on how to get it reviewed by tech blogs, I'd appreciate it.

I think your major problem is that most people land on your website and leave again. It isn't tailored for the sale of an app that costs less than $10. Get a separate domain for Battery Bar and have a well designed product page along the lines of:

http://www.delibarapp.com/ http://www.potionfactory.com/thehitlist/ http://culturedcode.com/things/ http://sophiestication.com/coversutra/

If a new website isn't possible or you want some other ideas here are a bunch: 1. Mess with your pricing a bit I was comfortable paying $7 would i have preferred $5 and would not buy at $10 which is where it is now. I think with some A/B testing you could find a better price point.

2. Your checkout makes me want to cry So as a potential customer i click upgrade to pro and get taken to this http://screensnapr.com/e/Rrn828.png . Why has the price double? Why are you trying to up sell me stuff? Why am i on an external website that i have never heard of before? Maybe spend some time/money setting up a more user friendly checkout system that wont cause potential customers to give up half way through the sale.

3. On your website sell benefits rather than features, to get you started "It a bloody million times more accurate than the inbuilt one"

Marketing Ideas (preferable once you have fixed your website) 1. Make a battery app for the iphone (there are tons of free ones) and you would be a small fish in a big market but if people do get your app you can cross sell plus if you get mentioned on any blogs you can try and get them to link to BatteryBar as well.

2. Are you actively talking to blogs and app review sites or are you hoping they stumble across you?

Hopefully that helps, its a mess of ideas but and comments but hopefully that is useful. If you need some more input ill try, just send me a message on twitter @nico_kunz

On the topic of A/B Testing your pricing... please don't offer exactly the same product or benefits at each price point, that's a definite no-no and a way to lose people if they catch on. To keep the price changes legit, you might offer varying levels of support, i.e. response time.

Where is the self plug? I want to check it out! :P

Small world.

Made a wireless stumbler for iOS in about two days that sold a bit over $100k total.

Admittedly, I spent probably another day in random debugging for version 3-ish of it (just went walkabout in Chicago with a debug build, logging AP details when it had bad behavior). And then ungodly amounts of time answering e-mails and on the phone with the iOS app review team, but that was long after the "weekend project" phase.

It's a shame these type of apps are now against the app store TOS. I'd be interesting to hear your experience of what happened to yours.

I had to dig about on Installous to find one, what was yours called?

Very nice bit of work but what is a wireless stumbler?

A program that looks out for any wireless networks it can detect. Mostly used to find an open access point, debugging wireless lans or just to map them. See eg. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardriving for more.

Hello World attached to a random number generator.


He's talking about Bingo Card Creator

An instructional DVD I made on SEO for wedding photographers and their websites (http://photographyseo.com).

Recorded screen casts and mastered it in iDVD. Did a run of 1,000 at Discmakers for about $900. Sold out the initial run (@ $79 per disc) in under 2 years. Now we just one-off them or give them an option of viewing online.

Looking back (or if I do it again), I would probably do it as just an ebook or online videos to avoid shipping hassles.

Regardless, it's been a fairly easy ~$80k.

(BTW, if any HN folk want to see it for research purposes, let me know)

This looks like a nice number . How do you advertise your product?

I'd love to see some example footage from the DVD. It's a fantastic idea.

Gumroad - http://gumroad.com/ - right now I'm trying to turn it from a million dollar business (current valuation) to a billion dollar one. :)

Cool! Just out of curiosity, what's the justification for the million dollar valuation?

The valuation of the last round was greater than that. A combination of potential and % chance of reaching that potential. So really, plucked out of thin air by those with money :)

I remember when you first posted that here. I thought it was a cool idea, and I'm happy for you and your prospects with it.

Seems to have very little traffic, when viewed in alex though.

Most traffic is on gumroad.appspot.com links for security.

Pretty cool. I didn't really get it at first and was about to leave before I saw the "Watch a Video" link at the bottom. I'd probably make that stand out a bit more.

"On anything about $1000/month in sales, we take a 10% cut."

about -> above

Would this work, or can it work with UK transactions in UK £ Sterling?

I absolutely love the idea and would like to integrate something like it into a project I'm working on.

How does one discover things for sale on gumroad? I mean, processing the transaction is nice, but how do you help with marketing

Right now it's purely a product. There is no distribution built into it. It's more for those will followers/fans already.

Though if I execute, I could see myself building a distribution platform into it.

BRILLIANT idea! Very, very nice.

Because a million dollars isn't cool. :D

Also, your site looks really cool. I'll give it a spin. :)

I once did a fixed bid contract that was sized by someone else at $150K.

I completed the bulk of the work over three days. I spent about 40 hours on it total including the production roll out.

I most likely could not pull that off again because I had very specific domain knowledge. I knew the software I was modifying and I knew exactly what to do over all of the various systems.


Hampton Catlin (creator of Haml and Sass) was working with us at Unspace when he went home for the weekend and came back having written iWik.

He made $60k or so before ultimately selling it to WikiPedia and becoming their director of mobile development.

Not too shabby!

I made a very simple iOS gym log app for my own needs and decided to sell it in the App Store. I think I've generated almost $5k in revenue. So, not a 'business', but it certainly paid for my developer account! :)

Cool, do you have a home page?


Iroically, the app isn't truly native, but was built in jQTouch. When I get around to it, I'm planning to finish a native version, which I think it desperately needs to be.

My most profitable side project is actually my newest - http://bugmuncher.com - it's been live about a week and I'm already quite profitable. Admittedly it's a very low overhead project (costs around $30 / month to run), but so far it's looking good.

I think the reason it's doing better than anything else I've launched is because its my first one that isn't entirely ad supported. My advice to anyone looking to launch a side project is try to go for something people will pay a monthly fee for as opposed ad revenue.

Neat. Remind me of the feedback integration on Google+ -- is this where you got your inspiration?

Love it...

Thanks for the kind words. If I'm honest I think 'inspiration' may be playing it down a little, I pretty much just ripped off the Google + feedback tool :)

As soon as I saw the G+ tool I knew it was something people would want on their website. I also knew I wouldn't be the only person doing this, which is why I went for a really lean approach, and managed to go from idea to first customers in 2 and half weeks.

I think I should probably add that I didn't rip off any of Google's code, just the idea :)

Very neat idea. How do you generate the preview image?

Thanks! It's currently a third party screenshot service, but as I've had a lot of interest and good feedback, I'm now looking into setting up my own in-house screenshot system.

I wrote my own custom screenshot service. I have no idea how to monetize it but you can check out a demo here: http://yoursitemakesmebarf.com

Looks cool! Would you mind me picking your brain some time about how you set it up? My email is in my HN profile.

I made a juror selection app for the iPad that generates about $1K / month


I started working at what was supposed to be a contract job to fix some computers for a guys business (at the time it was literally just a place that made copies) back in 2007.

I was still in college but me stopping in and telling the guy how much some of these customers having boxes of paper copied could benefit by having them scanned and organized led to me having my own company and employees as a sophomore in College which did just that.

I eventually built a host of sharepoint plugins which sold for a nice exit while I was still in school. I still havent finished school yet, but man did I have some fun with the money lol

I've made about $100 in ad revenue over the lifetime of this game:


Almost covered hosting costs!

http://www.contemporaryartdaily.com and http://www.contemporaryartvenues.com earn about $2,000 per month, and indirectly generate lots of web design business.

I wrote a WordPress plugin in about 4 hours to run a website listing web hosting company reviews. Simple affiliate stuff. The plugin was generic, it would add star ratings to WordPress comments and display average ratings for the post and such. I used the plugin to run my own site, then also built it a little site to sell to anyone else that wanted it. In 18 months it sold over $200,000 in licenses before I sold rights to the plugin to another individual for $90,000.

I'm interested to know the plug-in and if you have any plug-in ideas. Thanks you.

i think i bought your plugin ;)

what is that wordpress review plugin everyone uses?

It was called WP Review Site. I don't know if it's still widely used, the current owner unfortunately seems MIA at this point. He's let the affiliate program balance drop to $0 and go offline, and isn't responding to support questions in his forum.

Ok, so as far as non-client work goes:

The first iPhone app I ever made was a very simple Shopify app for seeing your orders and checking inventory. I dropped the ball on keeping it up to date because of client work and Shopify ended up buying a competitor to make into the official (free) app, but at its peak it made about $2000/month and up until I pulled it from the App Store a few weeks ago it was making around $300/month.

We're building some apps for Shopify too - what was the name of your app? Which app did Shopify purchase? As a side question - what has your experience with Shopify been as an app developer?

It was called Shopkeeper, and I don't remember the name of the app they purchased but it was subscription-based (this was long before the in-app subscriptions) and supported more than just Shopify.

Developing for Shopify was great. Their API is good to work with, and they're very developer-friendly in general.

Boxcar (http://boxcar.io) started out as a weekend project. The prototype (v1) was literally built in a weekend.

Now we have a great team, have raised a seed round and are killing it in general!

My current hobby is writing simple cardgames in javascript. Currently I have Hearts - http://www.hearts-cardgame.com , Idiot/Shithead http://www.shithead-cardgame.com and Crazy Eights http://crazyeights-cardgame.com .

Am getting my first payout from Google Adsense this month, about 120 $. Which isn't much, but they're pure client side games, require no maintenance or anything so I'll just keep getting a small check every month :)

How did you advertise your sites?

Basically just posted about them on Facebook. Two of them also have links on the Wikipedia article for that game. And they all link to each other.

The biggest referer is Facebook, with Google coming in second. Ive also created all of them as Chrome Apps in the Chrome Web Store so people can "install" them there. (basically just a big bookmark on your New Tab page in Chrome)

After a football-related post on my personal blog got a surprising amount of search traffic, I threw up a quick Blogger blog with similar posts for a few football teams. The traffic rolled in. I threw on some more and eventually added baseball which was a much bigger source of traffic. Right now baseball season is earning me about $10 a week. I think I've spent less than 30 hours on it total. Not a great return on my time so far but it just keeps cranking away and Google keeps paying me. I've certainly spent more time on projects that have earned zero.

Is it information about pro teams/leagues? Or is it information on the sport itself?

Just short specific information about each team. Pro baseball is my biggest money-maker, I guess because there are more games during the week and day games, when people are at their computers to search and possibly spend money. College football is second place. Pro football is surprisingly weak in comparison. Hockey made a little during the playoffs, but NBA and even college basketball playoffs aren't even a blip on my traffic.

Hacker Newsletter - http://www.hackernewsletter.com

Sold about $1000 worth of advertising so far and have had more than that in donations. Lots of ideas to do more.

Only Newsletter I actually enjoy receiving!

Awesome, glad to hear that!

I've made $40 in pro subscriptions (2) and about $50 in ad revenue from http://www.twistertracker.com While the money isn't yet covering hosting costs I've learned a ton and managed to gain 1500+ free users and 1200+ twitter followers at @twister_tracker.

It's a pretty seasonal site so I'm hoping to grow it more next spring with additional features and a better pricing model.

Back in 2005 I decided to implement a tag-based source code snippets repository over a weekend. Mostly as a way to keep my hand in with Rails. So I did. It went fine and built up over a couple of years to serious traffic but only about $800/mo in Adsense. I sold it to Dzone for low/mid 5 figures and they still run it (but they have proper big name advertisers).

Birejji - http://birejji.com Was earning $100/day with adsense as a normal chat site (with 2M+ impressions per Month), but adsense banned the site due to "fraudulent clicks" (I've always had a consistent CTR so no idea what happened there). Since then it's turned into a Paid to Chat site.

For a game hackathon I built an engine/CMS for creating phone-based choose your own adventure stories (http://uchoos.com). It's not actually a commercial product yet but I won $250 from twilio, so it's technically profitable.

http://goodmorningcmc.com I sold ad space at the top of the email to students for $5 per day, to about 500 students. Made about $250. I had other motivations than money but it was still nice to earn some back.

Cupcake Wrapper Creator. Stats over the first five months:

26,358 Pageviews

4,837 Unique Visitors

235 Trial Users

20 Paying Customers

$283 in Receipts

Over 4000 Designs Created

Over 7,000 PDFs Downloaded

getmetricmail.com creates simple Google Analytics reports and sends them to you as a PDF. Currently 3000 free users. A handfull pays, so it makes about $100 per month. A good example of Freemium gone wrong.

I've signed up to check it out. As Alex said, it's a good idea, nice design, etc.

Maybe the feature exists and I didn't spot it, but if you white labelled it so that web designers could send out branded messages to their clients as a value-add, I think you could see paid accounts pick up a bit.

Edit: OK, first email is in. Seems that I have to click a link or get an attachment - this is why I already avoid the Analytics mailed reports. Any chance you can just send the data in the email or does the API not permit it for some reason? I probably wouldn't use this going forward if I had to click through to something or open a PDF, I know that's sulky but just how it is.

You can receive pdf attachments directly, so you don't have to click on the link. Nevertheless that's not what you're looking for, I guess ;)

We thought about putting the data directly into an email, but the crappy HTML/CSS support in the gazillion email clients, make this a pretty tough job.

Yeah, I think Analytics does PDFs from memory and I cancelled all of those.

Can appreciate the frustration with HTML/CSS support - maybe if you kept your layout really simple and/or called it an Old School theme. Mostly I'd be looking for anything that quickly showed me if there was something wrong with a site (or right, e.g., major incoming link).

Wonder if you can throw in some marketing factoids like "Fourth straight month with an increase in traffic" or "Traffic growth continues; fourth straight month" - the sorts of things a marketing guy can repeat to the boss without any more time or research.

I haven't used your product so I may be saying nonsense, but why don't you also embed an image created from the PDF? HTML support may be crappy, but as far as I know most of them support images.

It's a great idea. Don't give up yet. Do you allow people to add multiple email addresses that the reports would be sent to. I imagine that would be v useful for businesses. For example, everyone in the marketing dept could receive a report each week.

That is actually possible.

The case here shows what happens when you offer too much features/resouces in the free plan.

The toughest part now is deciding if it makes sense to invest more time into it. But I guess that is a general problem for startups that haven't yet found product/market fit. You can't really know if you are miles or just an inch away from that fit.

I guess I'm missing something, but there is a setting in Google Analytics to send dashboard to an email address every week / month in PDF format. What's the difference here?

Indeed. Google Analytics allows you to create those reports. But apparently it's far too difficult for people who are not that tech-savvy.

As I said we currently have over 3000 users, so there seems to be some interest in such a solution :)

I made a few JavaScript scripts that I'm selling on CodeCanyon and the last month I made around $200. I'm thinking of expanding the business, but this time in ThemeForest building WordPress Themes.

http://www.jpictag.com/ A Jquery plugin for image tagging. It had some cool steady sales for over a year, which gather a reasonable money.

I started Stormpulse purely as a fun hobby project in late 2004. Incorporated in 2007. Can't share revenue numbers, but this year we should be profitable with a team of 5.

I enjoyed reading about Stormpulse in the Hacker Monthly: Startup Stories. Congrats on the hard earned success!


Domainr -- http://domai.nr/ -- a search engine we built for finding available domain names.

~80% of its revenue is registrar commissions from successful referrals (domain name purchases, hosting, ssl certs, etc.), and the other 20% is from ads (from adpacks.com).

We launched it in 2008, and both traffic and revenue have been growing slowly but steadily ever since. These days it's covering our respective apt rents (in the Bay Area) each month.

I use this all the time, thanks for making it so easy :) Helped me find HopOnTheB.us which is still in the works.

How do you check for domain availability?

iScrob - http://iscrob.com - a Last.fm scrobbler for iOS. It's free with ads, or $5 with no ads. I released it almost exactly 1 year ago, and it's averaged about $20/day in revenue since then.

It's unique because there's some trickery involved getting around the strict iOS backgrounding requirements, and most of my competitors haven't done a great job with it.

"Solve a difficult problem" is certainly one way to create value that you can sell. Thanks for sharing the figure.

My android games, hands down.

Cool, what kind of games/how much did they bring in?

Over $100k so far (after google fees, but before taxes and expenses)

I don't like publishing which games they are because there's already a lot of competition in their genres, no reason to extend it. However, for each, I was actually one of the first few of their kind when the market was just getting rolling with paid apps.

Awesome success. Do you need to frequently publish new games to keep your revenue up? For games, do you find that customers expect updates for bug fixes? Or are the games mostly "fire and forget", the code never to be touched again?

Wow, 100K over how many months? So after taxes maybe 60-70K?

Yes, my taxes in April were pretty heavy, but I put a lot aside because I saw it coming.

I'd say most of the income came in over a 6-7 month period of really amazing sales.

This: http://zvrba.net/software/cspim.html I didn't get any money for it, but I got a publication on a peer-reviewed conference: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=5438...

I started DNSimple (https://dnsimple.com/) a year ago and it's doing pretty well. It's a side project but I put a lot into it, so it's really like a second job. I currently put all of the money back into it rather than paying myself, so profitable might be pushing it.

DNSimple is a side project? I would never have guessed; it's such an awesome service. Keep up the good work!

Agreed that DNSimple is a fantastic product -- we just moved Domainr's DNS over to it, which went very smoothly.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

Apart from contract work, there's currently only one. It's called Snippets (http://www.snippets.eu). It replaces the caps lock key with note taking functionality. Although I wouldn't call it profitable, still trying to figure out how to get traction.

Change to "The easy way to take notes".

Pay someone to do some copy writing.

Thanks for the tip. I'll take a look into it.

Make sure to get featured on lifehacking websites.

I made a silly Mac vs. PC parody video with South Park characters for a college class final project that went viral and made me a few thousand dollars through various ad deals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id_kGL3M5Cg

I am building a learning system to feed me only content that is relevant to me. I blogged here. http://saranyan.com/post/7946363708/consuming-content-the-ri...

How would you distinguish your approach from, say, StumbleUpon?

Tiki-Toki (http://www.tiki-toki.com). Web-based software to create interactive timelines. Launched four months ago. 10,000 sign-ups. About $500 a month in subscription revenue from premium accounts.

Great stuff here. Thank you for the inspiration to keep going. As an aside, my only side project that has made me any $ is a blog from which I've earned $0.24. Not enough to withdraw from, but better than nothing.

I did some stuff one afternoon about 4-5 years ago and it continues to pay my mortgage ever since. It's the goose that lays the golden egg and under no circumstances do I mess with it.

Any chance you'd share what it was?

He got a goose. It lays eggs. Gold ones.

Bank robbery?

Could toy share some insights if it's a payed product (like basecamp) or the users are the product (profits from advertising)?

Tip Of My Tongue?

With some student colleagues we build http://sharedesk.at during last semester. Its a file sharing tool build on node.js , was fun :)

I've got a site collating interior design photos for inspiration. Makes about US$2k+/mo fairly passively from ads. I would spend maybe 10 minutes on it every six or so months.

I'd like do do something similar for landscaping inspiration. Any advice?

I have to say honestly that I think I just got lucky. I had a site with decent PR that I pushed/linked towards the interior design site and it gave it a good start. From there, it's been Google traffic and AdSense/Text-Link-Ads. Nothing I've done has been particularly smart - the site is ugly, it's rarely updated, the categories were picked on a whim, etc.

Where would I find content for the site?

I've emailed you.

I made http://wacchen.com in a couple of weeks. I have rewritten it a couple times since. I eventually sold it for 7k.

Just a simple office picture blog for me that earns $200-500 month: - http://officedesigngallery.com

A print magazine that publishes existing online articles.

Yeah, Hacker Monthly is awesome!

Thank you!

Selling videogame cheat source code to interested cheating websites: a few thousand. Was surprised to find such a robust market for that stuff.


No revenue because my AdSense account was banned a few years back. :(

my 30 minutes project http://hackertyper.net !


I made an iOS application for reading comics in literally 6 hours. I released it back in May and it's currently earning me ~$1000 a month via ads. Impressions are still increasing by ~25K each day, so profits are likely to increase in the coming months.

What kind of comics?

Probably manga. The US manga market has expanded hugely since I started reading manga (~8 years ago). Just about any genre (or subject matter) you can name has manga dedicated to it, which contributes to its ability to appeal across all age groups.

The other big thing is that most of the hardcore fans (those who would also like to read on their iOS devices) like to download & read scanlations (A $10 manga volume takes at most 90 minutes to read, so this is an expensive hobby for a hardcore fan, many of whom are children. Also, the hardcore fans prefer the scanlations because they allow them access to manga that hasn't been released in America or has been Americanized by the official English-language translator/publisher.), which are easily placed on an iPhone/iPad, whereas American comics would much more often require legal licensing.

How many impressions does it to take per day to reach $1000 a month? Do you use Admob?

My current company, which operates a number of ecommerce sites, started out as a side project. It's profitable, but it is no longer a side project, so it does not exactly count.

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